The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 hours ago, KDawg said:

Okay, now I’m convinced you are Heinicke. 
 

No.  Hallock has more self awareness.  
 

Can we send the useless Hallock

conversation to Around the NFL? He plays for the Falcons.  And he actually might play….

 

There is no need to derail a thread about actual QBs on the roster with a QB who isn’t.  

[Conn]

4 hours ago, The Team Formerly Known As WFT said:

I am putting most of the blame on Howell because this was a playoff team last year with Heinicke.  The offensive line was no good last year, yet Heinicke still had a 5 - 3 - 1 record.  

 

If Heinicke was still here, the Commodes win the Bears game and the Giants game and they would be at least 5 - 3 right now. Heinicke NEVER lost to bad teams like the 0 - 4 Bears and the 1 - 6 Giants.

oh so you joined 6 hours ago just to troll

 

edit: I should have kept reading, kudos Jumbo 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Conn

[CapsSkins]

5 hours ago, KDawg said:

Okay, now I’m convinced you are Heinicke. 
 

 

Be fair - even Taylor himself would not make that claim.

[illone]

The new look oline has me more confident in Howell this week.

 

Head scratcher why Larsen cant beat out these other guys in camp, but he comes in and blocks em up in the games lol.

 

 

[AlwaysBeRedskins2Me]

4 hours ago, illone said:

The new look oline has me more confident in Howell this week.

 

Head scratcher why Larsen cant beat out these other guys in camp, but he comes in and blocks em up in the games lol.

 

 

It's sad to think how a simple Larsen instead of Gates from the get go and we could be 5 - 3 instead of 3 - 5. I'm sure Ron didn't realize that Larsen is this good 🙄

[philibusters]

4 hours ago, illone said:

The new look oline has me more confident in Howell this week.

 

Head scratcher why Larsen cant beat out these other guys in camp, but he comes in and blocks em up in the games lol.

 

 

 

I don't think Larsen was that amazing against the Eagles.  PFF gave him a 56 grade.  I think EB had a good game plan and Howell executed it well.  The Eagles style of defense also helped.  The Eagles play defense the same way we do.  They rely on their front 4 (though they rotate more guy in and out than us) and don't blitz a lot.  Creative blitizing is not their thing they rely on their superior personnel.    Part of the problem with the Giants came is they were confusing the O-Line.  So we didn't have the pressure of facing creative blitzes against the Eagles.

[Skinsinparadise]

PFF though oddly still not down on this O line, still rate it below average by the way.  Was ranked 21st before last week, jacked up to 19th after the Eagles game.   IMO they are dead wrong.  But the idea that they like this O line is also wrong, they just don't hate it for whatever odd reason considering the number of pressures this O line has given up on THEIR own metrics.

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[AlwaysBeRedskins2Me]

10 hours ago, samy316 said:

Dak’s line is above average to great, and he has legitimate weapons, and a true #1 WR in CeeDee Lamb.  For Dak, there’s no excuse for him to not get to NFC Championship Games.  Dak as an underdog in games over his career is 7-12.  As the favorite he’s well over .500. That tells me that he can beat bad teams like the Rams, Jets, Giants (and us) like a drum with regularity, but when he has to play stiffer competition, or teams better than the Cowboys, he turns back into a pumpkin.  He never has good games when it really counts, like against the 49ers, or against the upper echelon teams in the NFC over the years, like the Packers.  
 

He’s been compared to Kirk Cousins for years, but I’ll take Kirk 10 times out of 10, because he knows to get the ball to his weapons in important games and in the playoffs, and Kirk can carry teams on his back if they need to be helped.

 

The Cowboys have won 12 games in each of the last two years, and both times their season has come to an embarrassing end at the hands of San Francisco.  Both playoff losses to San Francisco can be attributed to Dak.  He fails to live up to the challenge each and every time.  There’s no doubt in my mind that they’ll be a wild card team, and lose to San Francisco or Philadelphia if/when they play those teams in the playoffs.  Hell, I’d put  money in Detroit beating them in the playoffs if they played against them.

I agree with the Dak comments. He is a good guy and a good player. However when the pressure is on in January or even facing elite teams earlier in the season, he seems to falter. He lights up the NFC East though. Especially Philly lately. So I am starting him in fantasy tomorrow. However I don't agree with the Cousins gets it done in those situations comment. I have seen Kirk falter just as much in the playoffs. Or even win and you're in games.

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, philibusters said:

 

I don't think Larsen was that amazing against the Eagles.  PFF gave him a 56 grade.  I think EB had a good game plan and Howell executed it well.  The Eagles style of defense also helped.  The Eagles play defense the same way we do.  They rely on their front 4 (though they rotate more guy in and out than us) and don't blitz a lot.  Creative blitizing is not their thing they rely on their superior personnel.    Part of the problem with the Giants came is they were confusing the O-Line.  So we didn't have the pressure of facing creative blitzes against the Eagles.

 

Bieiniemy referenced in his press conference he helped keep a calmness and called protections that helped.  He seemed to imply there that Gates giving up pressures-sacks wasn't the only issue -- when he's hyping his successor's calmness and smarts, feels like a dig at Gates.   

 

6 hours ago, CapsSkins said:

 

Be fair - even Taylor himself would not make that claim.

 

Yeah Taylor was a big Howell fan boy, ironically.  He flat out said Howell can do things that he cannot do as to arm strength.

 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

Larson playing with guys that he knew and has played with before absolutely helped.

 

It's also no secret that EB recently got to see Reid game plan the hell out of playing the Eagles, harder than anyone else.

 

Let's see how we do this week against a bad team this week.

[philibusters]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Bieiniemy referenced in his press conference he helped keep a calmness and called protections that helped.  He seemed to imply there that Gates giving up pressures-sacks wasn't the only issue -- when he's hyping his successor's calmness and smarts, feels like a dig at Gates.   

 

 

 

Sure, but I know you listen to Keim so you heard him say the same things I mentioned because that is where I got it from.   Things went well for the O-Line against the Eagles, but the Eagles and a completely different style than the Giants.  They Giants brings lots of pressure and they also simulate a lot of pressure and drop people into coverage and that makes it hard for the O-Line calls.  With the Eagles they rely on superior personnsel and rotatings their guys to keep them fresh.  Its a different challenge and the protection calls are going to be easier against the Eagles compared to the Giants.

[Skinsinparadise]

22 minutes ago, philibusters said:

 

Sure, but I know you listen to Keim so you heard him say the same things I mentioned because that is where I got it from.   Things went well for the O-Line against the Eagles, but the Eagles and a completely different style than the Giants.  They Giants brings lots of pressure and they also simulate a lot of pressure and drop people into coverage and that makes it hard for the O-Line calls.  With the Eagles they rely on superior personnsel and rotatings their guys to keep them fresh.  Its a different challenge and the protection calls are going to be easier against the Eagles compared to the Giants.

 

I get your point but also consider stunts and blitzes have been an issue for them all year, not just the Giants game.  Feels like Martindale watched the game tapes and said well these guys really suck at identifying this, lets go nuts with it in this game.

 

It was either Keim or someone else referenced Gates has the first responsibility to call the protections for it.   Howell is the backup for that.  But Howell is a young QB and still learning.  They told Keim among others they wanted a veteran center this year for this reason.

 

Gates this year has given up 19 pressures, 5 sacks, 4 penalities.  I get PFF's explanation for why this O line has horrible stats yet they give them individually OK scores.  they said its yeah their stats are horrible but they are in pass sets so much that they should be rewarded for that difficulty of it.   I get that point but they take it to an extreme.

 

If I had to guess why they like Wylie it goes back to my own take watching two of his Chiefs games closely and what I said then is his protection reps are very clean. He's square and has the defender in front of him where his wins are very clean until he loses, and he always seems to lose on some big plays in games.  But yeah as far as PFF, I gather he gets a lot of points for his clean wins.  So lets say 27 wins and 5 losses -- is still a lot of wins. 

 

That's IMO where PFF is weak, they don't consider context.  Giving up sacks and pressures many many of them -- for them those numbers are diluted because of all the pass sets.  But for us watching him, it happens in big game moments.  He's absolutely unclutch.  So those pressures-sacks when they happen are back breaking.

 

I bring in Wylie because just from doing my own homework on it and reading on twitter a PFF guy explain their takes, its not hard to deduce their grades.  The irony is they seem to factor context a little bit when they holisitically grade this unit -- which they haven't graded it highly even though their scores would lend to think they would.

 

How does that extend to Larsen?  i don't know i haven't rewatched the game as to deducing why PFF didn't care for it,  in general, last year they graded him better in run blocking than they did pass protect.   But if he's bringing a calm to the huddle and calls protections better, that's an upgrade.  I get your point on this which is will see.  I agree will see if it lasts.  The Patriots would be a good test.  Belichick is famous for exploiting what the other teams suck at and is generally good against young QBs.

 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

Some of our guys have given up numbers like that in just one game

 

 

 

[Blanka]

11 hours ago, MrJL said:

he's also a USC QB

Joe Burrow was a LSU QB

 

CJ Stroud was a Ohio State QB

 

 

[DWinzit]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Bieiniemy referenced in his press conference he helped keep a calmness and called protections that helped.  He seemed to imply there that Gates giving up pressures-sacks wasn't the only issue -- when he's hyping his successor's calmness and smarts, feels like a dig at Gates.   

This shows me EB can admit mistakes. Ron could take a lesson. I imagine we will be seeing less of Gates.

Edited November 4, 2023 by DWinzit

[zCommander]

7 hours ago, CapsSkins said:

 

Be fair - even Taylor himself would not make that claim.

 

Hell even zCommander wouldn't even say that. 🙂

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, DWinzit said:

This shows me EB can admit mistakes. Ron could take a lesson. I imagine we will be seeing less of Gates.

 

To the end I wonder if at some point we see Lucas instead of Wylie

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

PFF though oddly still not down on this O line, still rate it below average by the way.  Was ranked 21st before last week, jacked up to 19th after the Eagles game.   IMO they are dead wrong.  But the idea that they like this O line is also wrong, they just don't hate it for whatever odd reason considering the number of pressures this O line has given up on THEIR own metrics.

Never forget this self promoting know nothing Jack hole ass hat owns PFF.

 

It explains a lot.  
 

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

37 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Hell even zCommander wouldn't even say that. 🙂

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

To the end I wonder if at some point we see Lucas instead of Wylie

I think it should, but who knows.  If they go a few games with giving up one sack a game, I doubt there is a change made. 

 

Though, I think there's a very good likelihood Bill schemes up ways to completely expose him.  And that might spell doom.  

[Skinsinparadise]

8 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I think it should, but who knows.  If they go a few games with giving up one sack a game, I doubt there is a change made. 

 

Though, I think there's a very good likelihood Bill schemes up ways to completely expose him.  And that might spell doom.  

 

Wylie had his best game yet still gave up a key sack.   Agree Bill for his faults knows how to scheme up an offensive lines weakness.

[PeterMP]

18 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Alex was 33 about to turn 34, they gave him 5 seasons.  If Howell was established apples to apples and had a 10 year career and was about to hit his mids 30, I'd see the analogy.

 

I read a long article about the Eagles scouting Hurts.  I posted it on a thread.  The vibe then wasn't from their FO that Hurts >> Wentz.  they just liked what they saw from Hurts and believe in taking QBs.  

 

Packers?   Favre was elite.  But again pushing mid 30s.

 

I don't get the Howell comparisons?    I understand if people aren't sold yet.  Will see how it plays out.  Speaking for myself, if Howell ends up in that 10-14 range, Kirkish, but more clutch.  I'd dig it.  That would make him one of the best QBs in team history.

 

We've had mostly garbage at the spot.  Some rare "good" Brad Johnson, Kirk.  If we get good from Howell, I'd take it.

 

Look if it were easy to find an elite QB, sign me up, so i am always open on that front.    If that opportunity presents itself but I am doubting it will.  Will see.

I'm not saying it is easy to get an elite QB.  I've said if there is a new FO, and they see the opportunity to get one I don't mind them trading Howell to do so as a general idea.  Nothing I've written can seriously be taken as I think it is easy to get an elite QB, or that they should just automatically dump Howell. 

 

I've talked about if they have a chance to get an elite QB at a reasonable price.   I've also said, I don't mind if they stick with Howell and if they do if they decide to draft a guy not at the top of the draft.  But I've got no issue if they also just stick with Howell if they don't see a chance to get an elite QB or get a good one in the draft.

 

The fact that Eagles didn't love Hurts (more than Wentz) doesn't hurt my point, but it helps it.  QBs are valuable today if you see a chance to get a good one even if you have a good one and don't think the guy you are getting is necessarily better, it still makes sense to draft them.  It give you insurance against something happening to your #1 guy and if nothing else if the guy does turn out to be good you'll likely be able to trade him for more than what it took to draft him.

 

You're only looking at the famous draft picks.  Go back and look at their larger history.  The Packers trade for Favre with a draft pick. Next year in a late pick they pick Ty Detmer who makes the team and has a reasonable NFL career as backup/spot starter.  Two years in a row they've put draft picks into the QB position, they know have a young stud in Favre and a reasonable young back up, are they satisfied?  The next year they draft Mark Brunnel.

 

In Philadelphia, Reid had McNabb through the heart of his career and regularly drafted QBs (and the several times traded them).  He spends a 2nd rounder on Kevin Kolb when McNabb is 31 (in what was pretty heavily criticized move).  A few years later, he's got McNabb (who is still playing well) and Kevin Kolb (note, Kolb's career is cut short because of concussion issues but at the time Reid doesn't know that).  Michael Vick is getting out jail.  Some team must be desperate for a QB to sign him and take all of the bad press/grief.  Andy Reid signs him.

 

The good teams in this league consistently and continually invest in the QB position because the QB position has that much value.  Just because you have a good QB, that isn't any reason to not try to upgrade the position to elite or even to add another one.

 

And anybody that doesn't understand that and can admit it doesn't understand the modern NFL.

[srtman04]

11 hours ago, illone said:

The new look oline has me more confident in Howell this week.

 

Head scratcher why Larsen cant beat out these other guys in camp, but he comes in and blocks em up in the games lol.

 

 

 

I'm sure Ron wasn't paying attention.   He was gonna start his off-season signings no matter what.   Stubborn old man syndrome 

[Skinsinparadise]

42 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

 

The fact that Eagles didn't love Hurts (more than Wentz) doesn't hurt my point, but it helps it.  QBs are valuable today if you see a chance to get a good one even if you have a good one and don't think the guy you are getting is necessarily better, it still makes sense to draft them.  It give you insurance against something happening to your #1 guy and if nothing else if the guy does turn out to be good you'll likely be able to trade him for more than what it took to draft him.

 

You're only looking at the famous draft picks.  Go back and look at their larger history.  The Packers trade for Favre with a draft pick. Next year in a late pick they pick Ty Detmer who makes the team and has a reasonable NFL career as backup/spot starter.  Two years in a row they've put draft picks into the QB position, they know have a young stud in Favre and a reasonable young back up, are they satisfied?  The next year they draft Mark Brunnel.

 

In Philadelphia, Reid had McNabb through the heart of his career and regularly drafted QBs (and the several times traded them).  He spends a 2nd rounder on Kevin Kolb when McNabb is 31 (in what was pretty heavily criticized move).  A few years later, he's got McNabb (who is still playing well) and Kevin Kolb (note, Kolb's career is cut short because of concussion issues but at the time Reid doesn't know that).  Michael Vick is getting out jail.  Some team must be desperate for a QB to sign him and take all of the bad press/grief.  Andy Reid signs him.

 

The good teams in this league consistently and continually invest in the QB position because the QB position has that much value.  Just because you have a good QB, that isn't any reason to not try to upgrade the position to elite or even to add another one.

 

And anybody that doesn't understand that and can admit it doesn't understand the modern NFL.

 

I was just following the examples you gave in my response.  if the point was Hurts was an effort to keep adding QBs -- agree.  I took the point the way you phrased it that the Eagles wanted to shoot higher than Wentz.  but reading the narrative at the time that wasn't their mindset.

 

But the examples you give here as for keep drafting QBs, to keep adding to the pile.  Sure, I agree with that. 

 

As for people not understanding it, they don't understand the modern NFL.  Not sure what people on ths board that would pertain to?  The point seems very basic.   The vibe of the posts last night, at least the way I took them is we need to shoot higher than Howell -- not so much from the perspective of adding depth to the QB spot because you never know.  But I gather i mistook your point if it was primarily about adding depth -- you never know what you might hit, etc.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]