The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[zCommander]

6 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

 

I smell me some bull****. Stop pretending like you aren't a hardcore Hive member through and through.

 

 

Maybe it is your own buil**** that you smell and keep on thinking it is coming from somewhere else especially after what I wrote and that is all you got from it.

 

[Koolblue13]

50 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

With how much flat out hate there for Wentz (especially with him coming here), I'm actually surprised they didn't find a way to rank us 33rd. I think Wentz needs a new jersey:

 

Wasn't he a panther?

14 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Maybe it is your own buil**** that you smell and keep on thinking it is coming from somewhere else especially after what I wrote and that is all you got from it.

 

Its definitely yours we smell.

 

The first time Wentz has an off game and you bring up Tays, I will reach right through this computer screen and find you.

 

And we all know its coming.

[Voice_of_Reason]

57 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

A healthy Baker Mayfield is a pretty good QB. Hindsight being 20/20 I'd rather have him for a future 5th than Wentz for what we gave up and that isn't even factoring in salaries.

Yeah the problem is two fold:

 

1) he wasn’t available (like Matt Ryan) because the Watson circus hadn’t occurred yet

 

2) he’s on the last year of his contract.  If he plays well, and you want to keep him, he would be in exactly the same leverage position Kurt was in after 2015.  Legitimate starting QB about to hit FA.  He wouldn’t set the market but it would be a hard negotiation and somebody would overpay massively.  My bet is he would have been Franchised twice and left.  Just like Kurt. 
 

Wentz provides longer term security, which I like.  
 

Mayfield is also under sized and always hurt. And might be damaged goods.    Wentz is a giant and hasn’t missed a regular season game due to injury since 2018. Though also might be damaged goods, if we’re being honest with ourselves. 

[The Sisko]

I think He Hate Me was a Cowturd.🤫You're giving away your age tho.

 

**Edit** Nope, you were right. He spent most of  his short NFL career with the Panthros.

Edited July 7, 2022 by The Sisko

[Koolblue13]

20 minutes ago, The Sisko said:

I think He Hate Me was a Cowturd.🤫You're giving away your age tho.

 

**Edit** Nope, you were right. He spent most of  his short NFL career with the Panthros.

I lived in Vegas and could be on the field during games. I loved the xfl

[HigSkin]

Don't we kinda already have a Baker on the roster without the baggage and on a rookie contract?

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/scouting-sam-howell-north-carolina-qb-similar-to-baker-mayfield

 

NFL.com analyst and former NFL scout Daniel Jeremiah takes a "first look" at some of college football's top players for 2021. This is the first in a series of scouting reports that will run throughout the offseason.

 

He reminds me of: Baker Mayfield. I wrote Mayfield's name down in my notes after watching about 15 plays by Howell. They have the same build, similar arm strength (Howell's is slightly stronger) and athletic ability (again, slight edge to Howell in this department). They both are ultra-competitive when they carry the football, and they bring juice/energy to their teams. Howell is a better deep-ball thrower, while Mayfield was a better decision-maker and didn't force as many balls into coverage back when he was a prospect.

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, zCommander said:

 

Maybe it is your own buil**** that you smell and keep on thinking it is coming from somewhere else especially after what I wrote and that is all you got from it.

 

 

What I got when reading your post was essentially the sound that adult characters in Charlie Brown make when they talk: the actual content just garbled nonsense, but it doesn't matter because everyone knows the essentials of what's actually being said.

 

What you claimed in your post is more or less irrelevant because you've shown countless times that you're a die hard Heinicke Hiver, and we all know that as soon as Wentz makes his first mistake you're going to be absolutely all over him in a way that you would never ever be if Heinicke made the same mistake.

 

None of us really cares that you love TH. That's fine, he's a good story. But please stop trying to push this nonsensical alternative reality where you're somehow anything even remotely close to impartial when it comes to our QBs.

[FootballZombie]

2 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

A healthy Baker Mayfield is a pretty good QB. Hindsight being 20/20 I'd rather have him for a future 5th than Wentz for what we gave up and that isn't even factoring in salaries.

 

I could see an argument for Wentz in all things equal fantasy land, but once you include contract cost and acquisition cost the board drastically slants in Mayfield's favor. I'd go with him too given the choice between those options as currently constructed.

 

If I have to negotiate a new contract after the year, I'll file that one under "good problem to have" as that would signify he didn't bomb and played well enough to be worthy of some kind of contract. If he sucks you simply don't resign him.

 

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by FootballZombie

[oraphus]

Comps being equal between Mayfield and Wentz, I would lean toward Wentz. You can't teach size, arm strength and scrambling ability.
The funny part is knocks against both are similar:  lack of accuracy at times, bad decision making at times, lack of leadership + for Mayfield lack of arm strength and lack of size

 

Wentz - has the ceiling of being Elite top 5 (even if he is unlikely to get there) + the team is build for a strong armed QB so he fits the O better

Baker - has the ceiling of being Pretty good (top 15)

Hindsight Baker might have been the more cost effective move but Carson is the more shoot for the stars move... Even if Baker get to Cousins level... that wont win you a superbowl.

Baker wasn't available when Wash got Carson so the only thing you can hammer the FO on is not being patient enough in waiting for other QBs to become available.

 

Likely outcome is that neither is more than a stop gap and if thats the case Baker would have been the way to go..   Like Ron mentioned though.. nobody cares what we gave up if Carson gets us to the superbowl or even if he makes us a 11W team.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

22 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

And Cris Collinsworth is still an idiot.   

 

 

 

Does THIS look like an idiot to you, sir?!

 

 

[mistertim]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Yeah the problem is two fold:

 

1) he wasn’t available (like Matt Ryan) because the Watson circus hadn’t occurred yet

 

2) he’s on the last year of his contract.  If he plays well, and you want to keep him, he would be in exactly the same leverage position Kurt was in after 2015.  Legitimate starting QB about to hit FA.  He wouldn’t set the market but it would be a hard negotiation and somebody would overpay massively.  My bet is he would have been Franchised twice and left.  Just like Kurt. 
 

Wentz provides longer term security, which I like.  
 

Mayfield is also under sized and always hurt. And might be damaged goods.    Wentz is a giant and hasn’t missed a regular season game due to injury since 2018. Though also might be damaged goods, if we’re being honest with ourselves. 

 

This is a worry I'd share with you about Mayfield as well. I think he's in the Cousins category where he's definitely good enough to be a starter in the NFL, but his ceiling is probably top 15 or maybe top 10 at best. So that means that he'll probably never be a truly elite game changer at the position, but he'll be good enough to demand a ginormous contract...which, as you noted, we'd have to decide whether or not to pay after this season.

 

At least with Wentz we know he's demonstrated the potential to be an elite top 5 guy in the past. Whether or not he'll ever be that guy again is definitely debatable, but he's shown it before. And we have him on a good but not top 10 QB contract through 2024, and he flames out we can cut bait with him after this season with no dead cap hit.

 

1 hour ago, HigSkin said:

Don't we kinda already have a Baker on the roster without the baggage and on a rookie contract?

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/scouting-sam-howell-north-carolina-qb-similar-to-baker-mayfield

 

NFL.com analyst and former NFL scout Daniel Jeremiah takes a "first look" at some of college football's top players for 2021. This is the first in a series of scouting reports that will run throughout the offseason.

 

He reminds me of: Baker Mayfield. I wrote Mayfield's name down in my notes after watching about 15 plays by Howell. They have the same build, similar arm strength (Howell's is slightly stronger) and athletic ability (again, slight edge to Howell in this department). They both are ultra-competitive when they carry the football, and they bring juice/energy to their teams. Howell is a better deep-ball thrower, while Mayfield was a better decision-maker and didn't force as many balls into coverage back when he was a prospect.

 

I think another thing Howell has that Mayfield doesn't is the ability to keep his mouth shut. Mayfield is a decent player but he's a bit of a jackass and loudmouth. Howell is a quiet, humble guy who leads by example.

[Hooper]

Baker is so physically limited. I get the team's preference for Wentz. It's a smarter roll of the dice. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, FootballZombie said:

 

I could see an argument for Wentz in all things equal fantasy land, but once you include contract cost and acquisition cost the board drastically slants in Mayfield's favor. I'd go with him too given the choice between those options as currently constructed.

 

If I have to negotiate a new contract after the year, I'll file that one under "good problem to have" as that would signify he didn't bomb and played well enough to be worthy of some kind of contract. If he sucks you simply don't resign him.

 

 

I disagree entirely.  The contract slants towards Wentz and it’s not close.  
 

Trading for a QB with only one year left and then having to renegotiate a QB deal with that QB heading into UFA is a terrible contractual situation to be in.  It is Kirk Cousins all over again. 
 

We’ve had this argument before: sure, in an excessively myopic this year only counts view, Baker is a better situation.

 

However in a 2 year view knowing what you have to go through next off season, there is no chance you want to do that.

 

Throw in Wentz is category better than Baker, who has had one season and 4 bad ones where Wentz has been a top 12 QBR QB 4 of the past 5 years (QBR might not be ideal but it’s as good a metric as there is which is math based) there is really ni question Wentz is the better QB on paper.

 

There is actually no way I would trade for Baker HERE without ban extension as part of the deal.

 

Also, if the Commanders traded for Baker in March, they wouldn’t have gotten this deal.  It was before the Watson deal.  
 

Finally, it makes sense for Carolina because they have Corral as a potential starter and need a 1 year stop gap.  
 

Personally, I wouldn’t trade The Carolina situation for ours.  
 

Though, especially with a remaining $13m of cap space, I don’t care a bit about Wentz’s salary this year and I know it’s a huge deal to you.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

What I got when reading your post was essentially the sound that adult characters in Charlie Brown make when they talk: the actual content just garbled nonsense, but it doesn't matter because everyone knows the essentials of what's actually being said.

 

What you claimed in your post is more or less irrelevant because you've shown countless times that you're a die hard Heinicke Hiver, and we all know that as soon as Wentz makes his first mistake you're going to be absolutely all over him in a way that you would never ever be if Heinicke made the same mistake.

 

None of us really cares that you love TH. That's fine, he's a good story. But please stop trying to push this nonsensical alternative reality where you're somehow anything even remotely close to impartial when it comes to our QBs.

You said it with less words than I was going to use.

 

 

[Koolblue13]

10 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

You said it with less words than I was going to use.

 

low bar.

[Warhead36]

59 minutes ago, Hooper said:

Baker is so physically limited. I get the team's preference for Wentz. It's a smarter roll of the dice. 

The only real knock against Baker is his height. He has a bazooka for an arm and is quite mobile/athletic.

[FootballZombie]

45 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Trading for a QB with only one year left and then having to renegotiate a QB deal with that QB heading into UFA is a terrible contractual situation to be in.  It is Kirk Cousins all over again. 

 

I get the apprehension about a Cousins situation given how this org dealt with it in the past, but that does not guarantee the same result.

 

 

45 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Also, if the Commanders traded for Baker in March, they wouldn’t have gotten this deal.  It was before the Watson deal.  

 

I wouldn't disagree, but that is not the topic being discussed, that's a strawman distraction to change the conversation. Comparing their current acquisition cost and contract, I'd prefer Baker.

 

Given the contrast that we are already on the hook for paying Wentz a top 10 in the NFL cap hit, I'd feel better with Baker at significantly reduced cost with the bonus of less acquisition capital as well.

 

If given the choice between:

 

Wentz, his current contract at #'s of 28, 26 n 27, a 3rd, a 2/3 next year and a negative pick swap

 

or

 

Baker, for 1 year 5Mil and a deep future 4-5 rounder

 

Gimmie Baker. You can replace Baker w/ prime Dan Marino, availability does not matter. All I'm saying is I prefer the latter at that specified buy-in.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by FootballZombie

[Voice_of_Reason]

39 minutes ago, mistertim said:

At least with Wentz we know he's demonstrated the potential to be an elite top 5 guy in the past. Whether or not he'll ever be that guy again is definitely debatable, but he's shown it before. And we have him on a good but not top 10 QB contract through 2024, and he flames out we can cut bait with him after this season with no dead cap hit.

We have Wentz for 2 years on this deal then he will need a new deal prior to going into the final year of his deal or else again you’re into franchise tag game.  
 

THAT would be a good problem to have.  You have 2 years minimum and 5 years of total control on a 29 year old QB.

 

Much better than 1 year contract + 2 years of Franchise Tags for Baker.

 

The one year thing is a complete deal breaker for me.  I don’t want to re-live the Cousins cha-cha-cha and end up massively overpaying an average QB with massive guarantees.

[Voice_of_Reason]

53 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

low bar.

VERY VERY VERY low bar.

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

low bar.

 

I would never dream of trying to get into a loquaciousness battle with VoR.   

[RandyHolt]

On 7/5/2022 at 7:14 PM, Voice_of_Reason said:

With the rules as they are, which favors the passing game, it always drove me absolutely bananas when Jay would run for 0 yards on first down, then try a "get back on schedule" play to pick up 4-6 yards on second down to set up a third down.  

 

Scott Turner does that at times too, though less often.  I like Scott (I have a rather .... lengthy posting history of not liking Jay however), but it drives me when he does it also.

 

Mike Martz was one one of the first who really embraced the idea.  Try and pick up at least 10 yards on every play.  So virtually every play is a 3rd and 10 play.  The whole playbook is open to you on every play.  

 

I want them to shoot for 30 ppg.  They most likely won't get there, but they should not be trying to win games 15-12 every week. 

Great post and the old school coaches desire to run run short pass neglects the modern rules encouraging passing.   Another one that doesn't get enough consideration - especially on a day the offense is stuffed - go deep and maybe get a PI. Tell the WR to sell it if needed. Or under throw a damn ball a time or 2 vs single coverage.  DBs are ripe for PI's and gift HUGE gains, but never if you don't try.

 

One my pet peevs. Announcers saying welp there is no play in the playbook for 3rd and 17th... why the hell not? Just run a draw and punt is old school thinking that is slowly going away with the younger coaches pushing out the stodgy old school stiffs. 

 

It appears that coaches have finally stopped having punters just blindly boot it through the uprights, and angling it more.

Edited July 7, 2022 by RandyHolt

[mistertim]

52 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

I get the apprehension about a Cousins situation given how this org dealt with it in the past, but that does not guarantee the same result.

 

 

 

I wouldn't disagree, but that is not the topic being discussed, that's a strawman distraction to change the conversation. Comparing their current acquisition cost and contract, I'd prefer Baker.

 

Given the contrast that we are already on the hook for paying Wentz a top 10 in the NFL cap hit, I'd feel better with Baker at significantly reduced cost with the bonus of less acquisition capital as well.

 

If given the choice between:

 

Wentz, his current contract at #'s of 28, 26 n 27, a 3rd, a 2/3 next year and a negative pick swap

 

or

 

Baker, for 1 year 5Mil and a deep future 4-5 rounder

 

Gimmie Baker. You can replace Baker w/ prime Dan Marino, availability does not matter. All I'm saying is I prefer the latter at that specified buy-in.

 

 

You'd choose a mediocre QB who's ceiling is probably top 15 and who's contract you'll have to renegotiate (probably up to a huge amount) this coming year over a QB who has shown top 5 ability in the past and who's contract you won't have to renegotiate for a couple years (and who you can jettison with no cap hit if he bombs) simply because the mediocre QB is a bit cheaper right now?

[Koolblue13]

24 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I would never dream of trying to get into a loquaciousness battle with VoR.   

If you're ever having trouble sleeping, just tell him that pff is the gold standard of important stats. 

[FootballZombie]

9 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

You'd choose a mediocre QB who's ceiling is probably top 15 and who's contract you'll have to renegotiate (probably up to a huge amount) this coming year over a QB who has shown top 5 ability in the past and who's contract you won't have to renegotiate for a couple years (and who you can jettison with no cap hit if he bombs) simply because the mediocre QB is a bit cheaper right now?

 

 

-23 million aint a bit cheaper.

-Significantly less acquisition cost in given scenario.

-We didn't trade for 2017 Wentz. There is legitimate question if he can physically even be that guy again. They are both mediocre QBs right now.

-Even better exit clause in case he bombs where I am out no cap, but am on the hook for less future draft capital.

 

Soo... Yeah. Easily.

 

 

[mistertim]

Just now, FootballZombie said:

 

 

-23 million aint a bit cheaper.

-Significantly less acquisition cost in given scenario.

-We didn't trade for 2017 Wentz. There is legitimate question if he can physically even be that guy again. They are both mediocre QBs right now.

-Even better exit clause in case he bombs where I am out no cap, but am on the hook for less future draft capital.

 

Soo... Yeah. Easily.

 

 

 

With the size of the cap nowadays and how much even "decent" QBs cost, 23 million isn't a crapload. 

 

Either way, given your past obsession with the cap, etc at the expense of being a completely mediocre team, I suppose this take shouldn't surprise me.