The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[redskinss]

1 hour ago, FootballZombie said:

The more cap he sucks up, the less there is to spread around. Especially detrimental if the player isnt worth anywhere near the cost.

The greatest cost of Wentz is Wentz cost on the team

I don't understand the logic of kicking the can down the road making the contract a better deal or better for the team, sure maybe in the short term but in the long term it can make it so much worse.

If washington converted his entire salary this year and next into a bonus and made his cap hit for the next two seasons a couple million each year and 3 years from now he had an 80 million dollar cap-hit would that make him a huge bargain this year and next?

Would that make it a good contract or a good deal because we could do so much more the next two seasons in free agency?

 

Credit cards can be fun as hell to play around with but sooner or later the bill comes due and it doesn't mean that when you were using it you were getting great value.

 

[SkinsFTW]

3 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

If Wentz plays like a top half of them league QB, which he’s done every year of his career minus one, The money doesn’t matter. 

 

If he doesn’t, he’s easily replaced.

 

Easily replaced!

 

Because this team has replaced scrub QBs with All Pros so easily over the past 30+ years!

 

[Thinking Skins]

7 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

 

The more cap he sucks up, the less there is to spread around. Especially detrimental if the player isnt worth anywhere near the cost.

The greatest cost of Wentz is Wentz cost on the team.

 

 

The Lions were paid to take on that contract. They knew it was bad, and got compensation to put it on their books.

 

 

If Wentz continues to play as he has been playing, he will find himself in the same situations. Teams either wont want him, or they will not feel confident enough in him to view him as a long term solution. He has to get better in order to justify anything.

 

More of the same play will net him more of the same results.

This is a false story because everybody knows how bad that QB is. He was a bust by the entire league then McVay took him to a Superbowl and made him a legit QB but he's never put up Wentz type numbers. Not even close. That's why Detroit got paid. Wentz is a potential NFL MVP. That's his ceiling. That's where he was in 2017. He's been very good. 

[FootballZombie]

6 hours ago, redskinss said:

I don't understand the logic of kicking the can down the road making the contract a better deal or better for the team, sure maybe in the short term but in the long term it can make it so much worse.

If washington converted his entire salary this year and next into a bonus and made his cap hit for the next two seasons a couple million each year and 3 years from now he had an 80 million dollar cap-hit would that make him a huge bargain this year and next?

Would that make it a good contract or a good deal because we could do so much more the next two seasons in free agency?

 

Credit cards can be fun as hell to play around with but sooner or later the bill comes due and it doesn't mean that when you were using it you were getting great value.

 

If you are paying a player the 6th highest QB contract, you are devoting a lot of money to a single player. Since Cap is finite, the money you expend on one, prevents the expenditure on others. If that player is nowhere near the value of said contract, then you are spending more money for lesser return.

 

Sure you could kick the can, which is both effective and smart when done in moderation, but that is not the direction the team is employing. They are right not to when you don't have faith Wentz is the long term answer. It would be silly to do that in this instance, but that does not make paying him at such a high rate any more palpable.

 

In a situation where you have your long term QB in place, and you have confidence in him, then restructuring contracts makes all the sense in the world.

 

38 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 He was a bust by the entire league then McVay took him to a Superbowl and made him a legit QB but he's never put up Wentz type numbers. Not even close

 

He only played seven career games before Mcvay was hired...

 

also I don't know where you pull your stats but...

 

Wentz has never put up 4600 yds in a season

Wentz has never had 34 total TDs in a season

Wentz has never averaged 290yds a game in a season

 

Goff has.

 

Not saying he's better, cuz he aint, but saying he has not put up Wentz numbers is incorrect. He has put up a lot numbers in primary categories that Wentz has yet to eclipse. He has not even gotten close to 4.6K yards, and Goff has done it twice.

Edited June 6, 2022 by FootballZombie

[Thinking Skins]

37 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

If you are paying a player the 6th highest QB contract, you are devoting a lot of money to a single player. Since Cap is finite, the money you expend on one, prevents the expenditure on others. If that player is nowhere near the value of said contract, then you are spending more money for lesser return.

 

Sure you could kick the can, which is both effective and smart when done in moderation, but that is not the direction the team is employing. They are right not to when you don't have faith Wentz is the long term answer. It would be silly to do that in this instance, but that does not make paying him at such a high rate any more palpable.

 

In a situation where you have your long term QB in place, and you have confidence in him, then restructuring contracts makes all the sense in the world.

 

 

I don't know where you pull your stats but...

 

Wentz has never put up 4600 yds in a season

Wentz has never had 34 total TDs in a season

Wentz has never averaged 290yds a game in a season

 

Goff has.

 

Not saying he's better, cuz he aint, but saying he has not put up Wentz numbers is incorrect. He has put up a lot numbers in primary categories that Wentz has yet to eclipse. He has not even gotten close to 4.6K yards, and Goff has done it twice.

Wall that was with McVay. He looks like he had no idea what's going on out there. McVay saved him but people knew it was McVay and not him. You can quote the stats but you ignore the fact that he couldn't remember plays so McVay had to tell him on the mic walking from the huddle. 

[Skinsinparadise]

15 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I guess I don’t remember that as much, after 2018 with the start of the #firevruceallen movement I kindof thought everyone was on board by that time.  Maybe I missed it or maybe I just compartmentalized it or maybe I came into it later…

 

Anywho, I was off the Bruce train somewhere in the 2017 area.  Maybe that was later than some.  
 

I was off Jay after 2016.

 

I’ve been off if Dan since my wife was in HS.  

 

I was cool with the Bruce hire at the time because of anybody but Vinny attitude. But the Kirk negotiation was the final straw with me and I was as relentless attacking him as you were Jay.  As for Jay ironically I was off him earlier than you, I was off of him after year 1 -- but I actually disagreed with your point that Jay underperformed Bruce's groceries.  Bruce's groceries and he and Dan's general incompetence and lack of likeability made me sympatheize with Jay more over time -- but the bigger issue for me is I actually liked to have a likable figure speaking on behalf of the team who can actually think on his feet in front of the press unlike Bruce and Dan. 

 

So I never loved Jay but never saw him even remotely as problem #1.  As far as Dan goes I was a long term critic, from almost the jump, but I bought the "he changed" crap a couple of times, once during the Gibbs era because I trusted Gibbs comments on it, and then again during the Shanny era.  But as I've said many times Dan's "changed" narrative will never work on me again.  I'll never give that douche the benefit of the doubt again.    

[Skinsinparadise]

Going back on point.  My main fear with Wentz considering this team's track record is injury.  Is there a team with worst luck on that front?  Kirk was durable and still is but otherwise?  Fitz without much injury history, of course gets hurt.  Wentz early in his career was considered somewhat injury prone but seems to have conquered that, I hope. 

 

Fingers crossed on this front.   As far as salary goes, if Wentz performs as a 2nd tier type QB, getting him under 30 million if anything might end up a bargain.  Will see. 

 

 

 

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2022/04/14/top-10-highest-paid-quarterbacks-2022-season-after-derek-carr-deal

Here are the top 10 highest-paid quarterbacks for the 2022 season, per Spotrac.com, after Carr’s three-year contract extension. The ranking takes the average of their respective salaries. 

1. Aaron Rodgers, $50,271,667

2. Deshaun Watson, $46,000,000

3. Patrick Mahomes, $45,000,000

 

4. Josh Allen, $43,005,667

5. Derek Carr, $40,500,000

T-6. Dak Prescott, $40,000,000

T-6. Matthew Stafford, $40,000,000

T-8. Kirk Cousins, $35,000,000

T-8. Russell Wilson, $35,000,000

10. Jared Goff, $33,500,000

Edited June 6, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Warner was recently a guest on the “Standig Room Only” podcast with Ben Standig, where he discussed Washington quarterbacks, Carson Wentz and Sam Howell.

“He’s shown us enough to intrigue us to say, ‘yeah, we think he’s got the ability to do it all,'” Warner said of Wentz. “But he hasn’t shown it to us consistently enough for us to be confident that yes, without a doubt, we’re going to see that Carson Wentz this year.

 

I don’t know the answer to that, but I’m hoping. I’m hoping he can get back to that, and I hope he finds a good spot and they play to his strengths, and we finally see what he can be year in and year out.”

Warner said when he looks at Washington’s roster, he sees plenty of weapons for Wentz to succeed. He said he didn’t feel Wentz had the best supporting cast in the passing game with the Colts last season.

“He’s going to have as much weaponry from a skill standpoint this next year maybe that he’s ever had in the NFL; even going back to Philly, I can’t think of a time where they had this many talented guys in the passing game,” Warner said of Washington’s offensive skill players.

 

Next, Standig asked Warner about a quote where he said his favorite rookie quarterback from the 2022 NFL draft class, maybe outside of Kenny Pickett, was Howell. The Commanders selected Howell with the first pick in the fifth round.

“I’m intrigued by Sam Howell,” Warner said. “The number of games he’s played, the success that he’s had. The ball jumps off his hand; I think he may be the most naturally gifted thrower in this class. I am very intrigued by Sam and what he brings to the table because I’ve seen it for a number of years.”

 

When a successful NFL quarterback such as Warner speaks, it matters. The Commanders believe they have a steal in Howell, but time will tell.

As far as Wentz, the message remains the same. Everyone knows the talent is there, and there will be no excuses in 2022. It’s all up to him.

 

https://commanderswire.usatoday.com/2022/06/06/hall-of-fame-quarterback-kurt-warner-rams-cardinals-talks-washington-commanders-qbs-carson-wentz-sam-howell/?taid=629dd75b7385bc0001a4b5bb&utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=trueanthem&utm_source=twitter

[zCommander]

8 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

Easily replaced!

 

Because this team has replaced scrub QBs with All Pros so easily over the past 30+ years!

 

 

Ummm... We already have our own ****ing Tom Brady on the roster in Sam Howell. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

13 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

Oh, and this thread had a bunch of people talking about it in early 2010 

 

 

 

Holy ****, my OP was scarily accurate, even if I didn't believe it at the time lol...jeebus.

[Voice_of_Reason]

9 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

Easily replaced!

 

Because this team has replaced scrub QBs with All Pros so easily over the past 30+ years!

 

What I meant was he wouldn’t count anything against the cap in 2023.  So a better statement would have been “easily released.”

1 hour ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

 

Holy ****, my OP was scarily accurate, even if I didn't believe it at the time lol...jeebus.

I’m not really sure it was the same.  I think it was different.  But worse in different ways….

 

One thing was absolutely different: they didn’t go on off-season spending sprees.  They went from wheeling and dealing to not being able to find the keys to the car to take them to the negotiations. 

[redskinss]

5 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

If you are paying a player the 6th highest QB contract, you are devoting a lot of money to a single player

This is where the disconnect keeps coming in this argument. 

Whether or not wentz is overpaid is certainly debatable but everything else you said is accurate. 

 

The debate was about who the highest paid quarterbacks are not who currently has the highest cap charge, if you look at it solely based on this year then you are correct wentz is 6th but if you look at it as an average as I believe you should when evaluating what you're paying versus the rest of the league then wentz falls right about where he should be.

I personally love that we get a shot with the guy at a reasonable rate for a quarterback with absolutely no future cap dollars committed. 

It's the exact opposite of what we did with Alex Smith, we had to hang on to him for 2 extra years absolutely crippling what we could do in the offseason and he wasn't even capable of playing but we had no choice because we had so much guaranteed money tied up in him.

[SkinsFTW]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

One thing was absolutely different: they didn’t go on off-season spending sprees.  They went from wheeling and dealing to not being able to find the keys to the car to take them to the negotiations. 

 

Hell, they couldn't even negotiate with their own players. They went from overpaying for everybody to not being able to resign their QB or LT because they "didn't want to be there" and who could blame them.

[Voice_of_Reason]

"Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics"

 

You can look at things through different lenses to make your point.

 

I'm not even remotely concerned about the money for Caron Wentz this year.  They have the cap room, currently they have $18M more to spend.  If they want to spend it, they can spend it.  They are not in cap purgatory because of the Wentz contract.  They are lucky because they have a young team, and very few veterans on high-dollar contracts.  So they have the cap room to spend whatever they want.  If they wanted an extra few mil in cap room, they could even find a way to do that.

 

If he works out, then he's a relative bargain in 2023, then they probably have to re-work his deal before 2024.

 

As far as raw yards, he almost assuredly gets over 4,000 yards in both 2017 and 2018 if he doesn't get hurt in both seasons.  He did in 2019 when he won comeback player of the year.  And if memory serves, that was a pretty beat up Eagles team a lot of the year.  

 

I've been saying for a while, you've got to play to Wentz's strengths.  He is not a fit for a run-first offense.  He is best when he controls the game, and the game runs through him.  When you try and make him a game manager, it's not going to work real well.  

 

They have to allow Wentz to be Wentz.  They need to let him stretch the field.   They need to give him a whole bunch of opportunities to hit the medium to deep throws. 

 

If they try and play ball-control, run first type of football, you're asking Wentz (and any QB really) to always try and complete passes in high-leverage situations.  It's what I complained so loudly about with Jay.  1st and 10, run for < 2 yards.  Now you have to pass in a known passing situation, where the advantage tips to the defense.  

 

Indy was better at running on first down last year, but Wentz was so often put into a position where he had to make plays on second and long or third down.  

 

One of the film guys on Galdi said that they turned into a team where they ran on first and second down and then hoped they could convert third downs.  Well, let me tell you, it doesn't matter WHO the QB is, that's tough.  Because the defense knows you're most likely going to pass, and they can adjust accordingly.  

 

Now, WHY did they go to that?  Was it because they didn't trust Wentz?  Was it because JT was REALLY good?  Was it because the other weapons around Wentz were nowhere near as good as JT?  Probably some of all of that?  

 

Unless we are seriously hit by the injury bug, (and assuming they work out a deal with McLaurin), we have a good RB room, and better pass-catchers.  We should have a good OL.  

 

So, if we play to our strengths, and run the offense through Wentz, we really should be a very, very good offense.  If he plays the way he is capable of playing.  

 

When you limit his opportunities, he presses and struggles.  So give him more opportunities. 

[88Comrade2000]

Considering the going rate for QB; Carson is cheaper option. Will he earn it and get his $40 - $50/ year deal in 2 years? Or will be regulated to being a journeyman backup? We will find out soon enough.

[Skinsinparadise]

I am getting the feeling we won't have to deal with Watson this season, I think the recent predictions of him missing the full season look apt.  

 

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

5 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

Hell, they couldn't even negotiate with their own players. They went from overpaying for everybody to not being able to resign their QB or LT because they "didn't want to be there" and who could blame them.

It's interesting you bring up those two as examples, because there was context to both of them.  Both were mishandled by Bruce.  However, the players did have culpability in both of them also. 

 

I'm still of the opinion, after a whole lot of reporting, Kirk was not going to accept anything other than a fully guaranteed contract.  And I really don't think ANYBODY should have given it to him.  He wasn't worth it.  The way they went about it was poor, though.  What they should have done is thrown a 2 year $18M/Year deal at him during the 2015 season and locked him up then.  Sure, it kicked the can down the road a year, but they didn't have any plan B.  By the time they got to the off-season, since Kirk knew the franchise tag was in-play, he had no real need to sign anything other than the franchise tag.  And then they should have traded Kirk on the tag to get the #2 overall pick from the 49ers.  

 

The handling of it was stupid.  But Kirk had leverage and he used it.  And THEN the situation soured to the point where he wanted out entirely.  

 

Trent was a disaster.  But remember, Trent also came out swinging about the medical staff when he really just wanted a big-money new deal.  Bruce should have traded him immediately. Ron would have, I'm pretty sure of it.  I'm sure he wanted out, and I'm sure he wanted to go to San Fran.  

 

Bruce also completely screwed up the Scherff stuff by letting him play on his 5th year option.  By the time Ron got here, they kindof had no choice but to franchise Scherff or let him walk, because he wasn't going to take a deal for less than the franchise tag amount.  That is ALSO on Bruce.  

 

Bruce was a debacle.  Complete lack of foresight.  And a scumbag.  

 

I do think Ron and company are much better.  And much better people.  It's one of the reason why I think the Terry deal will eventually get done.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I am getting the feeling we won't have to deal with Watson this season, I think the recent predictions of him missing the full season look apt.  

So, I bet if you put truth serum into Rodger, the owners THEY are most frustrated with are the Haslams.  

 

More so than Danny boy.  Dan gets a ton of deserved bad press. But the Haslams actually did something massively stupid for the league in trading for Watson and giving him that incredible contract.  

 

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Rodger wants to suspend Watson for 2 years.  Just to prove a point. Or indefinitely.  

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

So, I bet if you put truth serum into Rodger, the owners THEY are most frustrated with are the Haslams.  

 

More so than Danny boy.  Dan gets a ton of deserved bad press. But the Haslams actually did something massively stupid for the league in trading for Watson and giving him that incredible contract.  

 

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Rodger wants to suspend Watson for 2 years.  Just to prove a point. Or indefinitely.  

 

They both end up costing them money in different ways.

 

Haslam for both escalating the QB market and going off the rails with guaranteed money. 

 

Dan for taking a flagship franchise and turning it into a league embarassment -- and turning a good fan market both as for stadium revenue and being a national TV draw to being one of the leagues worst who is challenging the Jaguars for irrelevancy. 

[SkinsFTW]

25 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

I'm still of the opinion, after a whole lot of reporting, Kirk was not going to accept anything other than a fully guaranteed contract.  And I really don't think ANYBODY should have given it to him.  He wasn't worth it. 

 

And, like KC, I bet just about anybody would have been pissed enough to say screw it, I'm going to expect the impossible (fully guaranteed contract) and then play on franchise tags to gtfo of there after dealing with smug assed Bumbling Bruce telling him that he's only worth 12M a year, then 14 or 15.

 

KC knew that other teams would pay him as a franchise player. Remember Jon Gruden on MNF saying long before this that if he was in charge of another team, he'd be throwing first rounders at the Redskins to get him. Then everybody knows that Shanahan wanted him. You know that KC was talking to people, so he knew that he was being disrespected. Especially after the RG3 crap with Snyder. Like I said earlier, you can't blame him. Hell, he should be praised for standing up for himself and living through several years of that BS just to get out. 

Edited June 6, 2022 by SkinsFTW

[SkinsFTW]

14 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Rodger wants to suspend Watson for 2 years.  Just to prove a point. Or indefinitely.  

 

He's going to get called out if he doesn't after what MLB did with Bauer, and that was before the 2 new allegations coming out. 

 

 

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

They both end up costing them money in different ways.

 

Haslam for both escalating the QB market and going off the rails with guaranteed money. 

 

Dan for taking a flagship franchise and turning it into a league embarassment -- and turning a good fan market both as for stadium revenue and being a national TV draw to being one of the leagues worst who is challenging the Jaguars for irrelevancy. 

 

The owners probably didn't forget that Snyder did the same thing before, overpaying coaches and players a long time ago. Now his team is a joke. He's cost them LOTS of money over the years. 

[Skinsinparadise]

I just read the details of the 24th case against Watson, brutal, and the details too graphic for me to post here.  Tough for me to imagine that everyone is lying about Watson, so assuming much of that stuff is true, the dude needs some help IMO.

 

If this blows up, considering the fully guaranteed contract, the Browns obviously are in deep trouble.  Among other things, are they playing a disgruntled Baker this season?  Baker wants out and they supposedly would have to swallow that contract, too.

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

The owners probably didn't forget that Snyder did the same thing before, overpaying coaches and players a long time ago. Now his team is a joke. He's cost them LOTS of money over the years. 

 

Yep that was Dan's last run of paying top dollars for coaches under Gibbs 2.  After that era, he was known to be cheap (aside from his head coaches), losing an assistant coach to the Rams because of money.  Supposedly Jay had Dan at hello when he said he wanted to keep Haz and the coaching staff so Dan didn't have to swallow that loss, etc.

 

Dan is easily the worst owner in the NFL, probably in all of sports. 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[SkinsFTW]

10 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Yep that was Dan's last run of paying top dollars for coaches under Gibbs 2. 

 

Well I meant Spurrier actually. Snyder paid him something like 5M a year when most coaches were barely making a mil a year. All the owners were pissed, probably just as much as this one with Watson.

[FootballZombie]

6 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

Wall that was with McVay. He looks like he had no idea what's going on out there. McVay saved him but people knew it was McVay and not him. You can quote the stats but you ignore the fact that he couldn't remember plays so McVay had to tell him on the mic walking from the huddle. 

 

I didn't ignore anything, I said the Lions had to be paid to take him on. But your claim that he had never put up Wentz numbers simply was not true.

 

1 hour ago, redskinss said:

The debate was about who the highest paid quarterbacks are not who currently has the highest cap charge, if you look at it solely based on this year then you are correct wentz is 6th but if you look at it as an average as I believe you should when evaluating what you're paying versus the rest of the league then wentz falls right about where he should be.

 

Having a lower average does not matter very much in the here in now. What matters is the actual charge.