The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[88Comrade2000]

4 hours ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

I’m sure he’s going to play again. No way is he exiled. And heading into the off-season the asking price was presumably 3 1’s and a player. Maybe that’s not what ends up being the offer, but 1/2/1 and player on final year of his deal seems reasonable to me. 

If he ends up going jail; then chances are by the time he got out; he’ll be too old.

[Est.1974]

Trading for Mayfield is one of the better outcomes being discussed.

[RWJ]

18 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

Trading for Mayfield is one of the better outcomes being discussed.

If we could make it happen yes other than us trading for Carr, if they don't want to pay him what he wants.  Just don't see the big named guys being traded.  Everyone knows how I feel about Jimmy G and Wentz.

[kingdaddy]

14 hours ago, Jericho said:

 

I don't disagree, but Wentz costs essentially nothing. If he gets cut and you sign him then you're just out the money to sign him. If you somehow decide to trade for him, he won't cost more than a very minimal pick. He's not the answer, but he is better than what's here. It doesn't make much sense to pay good assets for Jimmy G to realize he sucks, will get hurt, and will need to be replaced in a year. While I'd take Jimmy G over Wentz in a vacuum, if Jimmy G costs a 2nd rounder and Wentz is essentially free then I take Wentz and look for the real answer elsewhere.

I disagree that he's better for the team than what we have. I'd take TH and Kyle Allen over Wentz just on the intangibles alone. Wentz teammates didn't waste much time trashing him after the Jax loss that ended their season. 

[Koolblue13]

58 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

I disagree that he's better for the team than what we have. I'd take TH and Kyle Allen over Wentz just on the intangibles alone. Wentz teammates didn't waste much time trashing him after the Jax loss that ended their season. 

Brady

God

Taylor Heinicke

The rest

 

Did I get your QB list correct?

[Darth Tater]

Unless Wilson really wants out of Seattle to the point where he would sit out or Pete Caroll is actually about to retire (just hasn't announced), I'd be really surprised if we could get Wilson. Pete is going to be 71 and I don't see him wanting to go out with two 10 or more loss seasons (before this season, he had only 1).  Wilson was hurt so if you think he's still good enough to give up more than our 1st and some change, you would agree that Seattle was only 3 plays out of taking SFO's spot in the 2021 season and Wilson still probably has enough left to accomplish that. Seattle is at most in need of a refresh to be a playoff contender for the next year or two which they can do via FA (albeit they might crash and burn in 2024). A 71 year old Caroll would see that as a more attractive option than starting a complete rebuild that'll not be completed with him as HC. Remember, we've been rebuilding since 1993 and before that were in rebuild mode for most of time between 1948 and 1971. In some ways, Detroit has been in rebuild since1958. There are more rebuilds that fail than rebuilds that succeed.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, kingdaddy said:

I disagree that he's better for the team than what we have. I'd take TH and Kyle Allen over Wentz just on the intangibles alone. Wentz teammates didn't waste much time trashing him after the Jax loss that ended their season. 

The problem is intangibles don’t win games.  
 

I don’t really think Wentz is an option.  The only way Wentz lands you here is if

 

1 Wilson, Carr, Rodgers, Mayfield, Jimmy G  all either stay out or go to another team.

 

2 Watson goes to jail

 

3 Mitch, Marcus, Teddy and Jamis all choose other teams

 

4 they draft a QB who they need to redshirt. I think if they get Pickett, he starts right away.  Not sure about the others.  
 

5 Cam Newton isn’t Available for stop gap duty as the last possible option. 

 

In that scenario, they could bring in Wentz if he’s released.  

 

There is no scenario by which TH or Kyle Allen, who’s set to be a FA btw, so be most likely isn’t even here, and might not even be on a team, takes a meaningful snap next year unless there is an injury.  Exactly like this year.  He will not be the plan to start.  If there is an emergency, maybe.  But they would ride with Wentz if they knew they needed a starter for either part of or all of the season before trotting TH out there.  

[The Consigliere]

3 hours ago, Jericho said:

 

….Which circles back to Watson. The one real answer. Apparently, after years of all sorts of unadulterated stupidity and incompetence, not to mention a general daftness of a magnitude that shocks beyond words, the team must now grow some sort of moral compass to atone for its past misdeeds. Not entirely sure why. Some sort of cosmic karma? The franchise is generally a laughingstock as is, so it's not like it's going to tarnish some pristine image. But the other reality is no one really cares how you win. As long as you win. Apparently Washington now has to win the "right" way, even if could never win the "wrong" way. There's still a good chance Watson would never want to come here anyway (he does have a no trade clause). But the only reason he is even available is because of his warts. If you're waiting for a franchise QB to become available with no warts, keep waiting as I doubt it will ever happen anytime soon. So you either have to accept the warts and live with them or just keep going back to the QB draft roulette wheel and hope the powers that be are smart enough to land the next Josh Allen (picked 7th overall) or Patrick Mahomes (picked 10th overall) or Joe Burrow (picked 1st overall) or Justin Herbert (picked 6th overall) or Kyler Murray (picked 1st overall). And if you're hoping for that to happen in 2022, be mindful the team is without a top 10 pick and its a weak draft. So it might take a few years...or decades. But, I suppose one might be finally able to truthfully say one is winning off the field by making good moral choices.

I see you as kinda in agreement w/my sentiments here but I just wanted to state them. Moral stands are well and good but there is an element of hubris t them that can’t be denied or avoided. If the examples of beloved athletes like Kirby Puckett and award winning Eugene Robinson taught us anything it’s that you simply never truly know your players or their moral strengths, frailties or criminalities. You can deliberately choose to avoid proven monsters like Lawrence Phillips and Tyreek Hill or vile cretins like Watson but we can never truly have a morally clean roster, a roster built of nothing but character driven men.
 

We never can truly know the hearts of these men. We can try our best but that’s all and to a degree I find it a bit of a hubris drenched fools errand. Character counts, but there’s never been a super bowl winning team built of nothing but angels, not really any sporting teams. The devils in the details. Always is, but I get wanting a team you can enjoy cheering for, alas our owner makes that fundamentally impossible at core level, if character counts above all else for you, anyway.

[ExoDus84]

2 hours ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

If he ends up going jail; then chances are by the time he got out; he’ll be too old.

 

He's a wealthy athlete. Unless he's accused and found guilty of a far more serious crime (i.e, rape), there's no way he sees the inside of a jail cell.

 

At any rate, he's basically plutonium right now. Nobody will touch him with all of his legal issues. Texans have zero leverage right now, IMO.

[zCommander]

58 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Brady

God

Taylor Heinicke

The rest

 

Did I get your QB list correct?

 

Brady will never want to come here with what is going on with Dan. 

God is just shaking his head on all of this anyway so he is out. 

Taylor is ready to start again if needed. 

The rest - well there is no one left anyway who knows the offense better than Taylor. Wilson is staying with this team so is Baker and Jimmy G. is going somewhere else. Then you have your other teams backups and if that is what you have left then you just roll with your own backup(s) instead. Fitz is still not out of the picture yet. He might actually become with trojan horse after everything is done and said. 

 

The other still - is your drafted rookie who would have to beat out Taylor, Allen. But if Fitz is re-signed for one another year then the rookie sits behind him instead. 

 

I know you were trying to be cynical and you are going to make fun of me with my Taylor thing. But at least I am looking at the whole "rosy" picture as well as plan C if you will. It could easily come to that and you might want to get your mind ready for that even if you don't like it. 

 

The other reality -  with a full deck (hopefully) next year you could win more than 7 games with a managerial type of QB. That means Taylor as well as he is seen as a high end backup and low-end starter.

[Koolblue13]

5 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Brady will never want to come here with what is going on with Dan. 

God is just shaking his head on all of this anyway so he is out. 

Taylor is ready to start again if needed. 

The rest - well there is no one left anyway who knows the offense better than Taylor. Wilson is staying with this team so is Baker and Jimmy G. is going somewhere else. Then you have your other teams backups and if that is what you have left then you just roll with your own backup(s) instead. Fitz is still not out of the picture yet. He might actually become with trojan horse after everything is done and said. 

 

The other still - is your drafted rookie who would have to beat out Taylor, Allen. But if Fitz is re-signed for one another year then the rookie sits behind him instead. 

 

I know you were trying to be cynical and you are going to make fun of me with my Taylor thing. But at least I am looking at the whole "rosy" picture as well as plan C if you will. It could easily come to that and you might want to get your mind ready for that even if you don't like it. 

 

The other reality -  with a full deck (hopefully) next year you could win more than 7 games with a managerial type of QB. That means Taylor as well as he is seen as a high end backup and low-end starter.

I'm definitely not reading any wordy post from a TH apologist, but you should have said "it's a trick question. Tays is god" 

[Voice_of_Reason]

12 minutes ago, zCommander said:

The other reality -  with a full deck (hopefully) next year you could win more than 7 games with a managerial type of QB. That means Taylor as well as he is seen as a high end backup and low-end starter.

Now that the league has fully figured out TH can’t throw into certain windows, can’t stretch rge field and can’t throw outside the numbers, winning 7 games again even if he had the Chiefs offensive skill positions would be an enormous mountain to climb.  

[zCommander]

3 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Now that the league has fully figured out TH can’t throw into certain windows, can’t stretch rge field and can’t throw outside the numbers, winning 7 games again even if he had the Chiefs offensive skill positions would be an enormous mountain to climb.  

 

You see I really don't care about the "league had figured out mantra" at all. If that was so true then Brady wouldn't have won any SBs or any other QBs for that matter. Last time I checked you can move the chains 10 yards at a time. The reason we couldn't stretch the field last year was because there was only Terry to really to throw to. When you have multiple players out there who can stretch the D outside of the numbers then your underneath is wide open. 

 

Is there a stat out there that says how many times does a QB throw over 40yards per game and how many of those kind of throws resulted in a completion? 

[Skinsinparadise]

Catching up with a Finlay podcast, he said he text'd someone tied to the team with the story about Jimmy G could be worth a first and the response was hahahaha that's crazy.

[HigSkin]

FWIW, I keep reading about JimmyG being a good fit in this offense so I went digging to understand why because I always thought Turners old Air Coryell principals were vertical based.  I assumed downfield passing but that's not correct.  I was scratching my head about a QB that isn't always that accurate downfield and here's what I found. 

 

It kind of explains the "why's".

 

https://www.knbr.com/2022/02/04/which-potential-jimmy-garoppolo-suitors-make-the-most-sense/

 

 

Garoppolo would be a plug-and-play quarterback option for them in Scott Turner’s offense, which leans heavily towards the work of his father, Norv Turner, and the old Air Coryell offense.

 

What’s interesting is that you saw Turner use Curtis Samuel is similar ways to Deebo Samuel when he and Ron Rivera were with the Panthers in 2019, and that was expanded upon with Matt Rhule, until Samuel signed with Washington this season.

 

There are similar elements of the Air Coryell scheme and Kyle Shanahan’s offense in the heavy use of pre-snap motion. The 49ers led the league in pre-snap motion usage, but Scott Turner’s offense ranked in the top 10.

 

The reliance on motion and post-snap timing is a key element of the offense. Some of the core tenets of the Air Coryell offense, with intermediate crossing routes coupled with deep shots, are present in the Shanahan scheme.

 

It’s not the same offense, but there are very clear, general similarities which would make Garoppolo transitioning into that offense — which has some talented pass-catchers in Terry McLaurin, J.D. McKissick, Logan Thomas and theoretically, Samuel — a logical fit.

  

 

 

[Darth Tater]

Biggest problem with TH was the number of hospital passes he throws. A big thing isn't long air passes but where you stick it in front of your receiver so he runs through the catch and is able to turn a medium route into a 30-40 yard gain. People were hoping TH would turn into our Kurt Warner, but this ability is what made Kurt great.

[Skinsinparadise]

17 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

 The reason we couldn't stretch the field last year was because there was only Terry to really to throw to. When you have multiple players out there who can stretch the D outside of the numbers then your underneath is wide open. 

 

 

Forgot what pundit said it (I agreed with them) that the ultimate throw that shows that Heinicke isn't the answer was the one where he scrambled to the right, pointed to Terry to keep going deep, steps into his throw and couldn't even reach him.

 

It's not just that he's not accurate with the deep ball its that he struggles to even reach the landmarks on throws that requite some zip including deep posts, corner routes, run of the mill throws that go deep/outside the numbers.  

 

 

 

[Darth Tater]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

<video>

Yeah, if he had zip that is probably a TD. There was a couple of others but the one I remember is one in the first Dallas game.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

FWIW, I keep reading about JimmyG being a good fit in this offense so I went digging to understand why because I always thought Turners old Air Coryell principals were vertical based.  I assumed downfield passing but that's not correct.  I was scratching my head about a QB that isn't always that accurate downfield and here's what I found. 

 

It kind of explains the "why's".

 

https://www.knbr.com/2022/02/04/which-potential-jimmy-garoppolo-suitors-make-the-most-sense/

 

 

 

Agree with a lot of that.  I've talked about this some.  IMO its yes and no as to a good fit for Turner's offense but mostly yes.

 

Like Kyle, this offense is heavy based on outside zone runs -- and at times play action off of that.    Motion is a big part of both offenses.  And as part of that soup the pass offense often rolls in the opposite direction at times on outsize zone play fakes.   Scott also like Kyle does a lot of short passes in the flat that depend on YAC.  Jimmy G is arguably an even better fit for that than Heinicke because his release his so fast and he hits receivers in the flat in stride so that helps guys like Samuel and Aiyuk make big plays with the balls in their hands.

 

Where Scott is supposedly close to his dad is he like his dad likes to use the run game to set up some deep passes.  We just didn't see it because Heinicke doesn't have the arm to do it.  Logan Paulsen talked about this some in his film reviews.  Ironically, according to SF reporters, Kyle also wanted to take more deep shots but felt limited on that front because of Jimmy G's arm talent. 

[The Consigliere]

15 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Catching up with a Finlay podcast, he said he text'd someone tied to the team with the story about Jimmy G could be worth a first and the response was hahahaha that's crazy.

My view as well. He wasn’t worth a first in that trade several years ago when he was an unblemished rose. His stock is less than 1/3rd what it was back then AND he’s no longer on a cheap rookie deal. Same teams wouldn’t pay more than a 3rd.

[Skinsinparadise]

41 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

My view as well. He wasn’t worth a first in that trade several years ago when he was an unblemished rose. His stock is less than 1/3rd what it was back then AND he’s no longer on a cheap rookie deal. Same teams wouldn’t pay more than a 3rd.

 

Yeah its one of things that I don't want to see happen everything being equal.  I wouldn't jump off a bridge if they got him cheap but Jimmy G doesn't move the needle for me at all.   

Edited February 20, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

Heinicke is the USFL version of Jimmy G.

[Darth Tater]

All JimmyG does is let you take a guy at 11 and red-shirt him or wait till what is available next year. You also want an answer at number 2 wide and while Brown could blow up (it happens), you really can't be betting on it. You also need protection at the number 1 wide spot anyway. Further, while Bates looks like he could be our new Warren type, with the injury and age of Logan Thomas, we need to be able to find an all-round TE like that. Next, McKissic is an issue that must be fixed (resign him or look at the draft for at least a Chris Thompson-type). Finally, while Gibson is a good lead dog in a RB by committee, I don't see him as a bell-cow and Patterson would not be my preferred solution as your #2 in an RBC. I'd love a guy who can do for us what Barber did in 2020 but also is more of a regular threat. 

[Koolblue13]

3 minutes ago, Darth Tater said:

All JimmyG does is let you take a guy at 11 and red-shirt him or wait till what is available next year. You also want an answer at number 2 wide and while Brown could blow up (it happens), you really can't be betting on it. You also need protection at the number 1 wide spot anyway. Further, while Bates looks like he could be our new Warren type, with the injury and age of Logan Thomas, we need to be able to find an all-round TE like that. Next, McKissic is an issue that must be fixed (resign him or look at the draft for at least a Chris Thompson-type). Finally, while Gibson is a good lead dog in a RB by committee, I don't see him as a bell-cow and Patterson would not be my preferred solution as your #2 in an RBC. I'd love a guy who can do for us what Barber did in 2020 but also is more of a regular threat. 

You can nit pick pretty much all the way down the roster, but overall we have a pretty good offense. Just no one to drive the car.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

Listening some more to Finlay's podcast, he speculated as I mentioned earlier today, that Watson's agent might not have a hot relationship with some at Commanders Park.

 

If you guys recall the Haskins demise wasn't that far removed from his agent at the time blasting the team publicly for in his mind unfairly scapegoating Haskins for the team's rough start.

 

As for Keim saying he heard Watson has a hard no as to coming here -- I wonder if some of that is driven by his agent.  I mentioned before it made sense to me on the level that why would Watson want to come to the one place where his off the field issues would get even more attention because his new team have their own issues on a similar topic.  But maybe there is something to the agent component of it, too. 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Skinsinparadise