The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Andre The Giant]

 

[Skinsinparadise]

15 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I'm not necessarily resigned to it, but I am starting to get a bit of a sinking feeling. I really do enjoy watching Daniels play, but the more I watch the more difficulty I have convincing myself that picking him would be a good move. There are just so many red flags for me that it seems other people are ignoring.

 

As I said above, it could be that I'm just clueless, that those aren't actually the red flags they seem, and that the people making the pick should be trusted as they have way more experience than I do. But at the same time, scouts and coaches also completely whiff on QBs plenty of times.

 

I'll start with Daniels seem to be a legit chance to be taken for weeks to me just paying attention to reports, etc.   It started at the combine where the PFF guys siwtched to thinking they are taking Maye to Daniels based on scuttlebutt and then it just kept building.  But not to the extent that I think that's who they take for certain.  But if heard enough that he has a fighting chance and this team (and most teams) don't see this as a no brainer where the choice has to be Maye.

 

I also have read enough to get vibe that its wish casting by some (not you) that its just the coaches who prefer Daniels and the scouts-personnel guys mostly prefer Maye.  I've seen enough leaks about the topic to say at best the scouts-personnel guys talking off the record are more likely divided on this versus slam dunk pro Maye.  But like I've been saying, I put stock on McGinn's scouts takes because he asks so many and they tend to be more accuate than mock drafters as to how the actual NFL sees it.  On first blush from 3 scouts they seem divided on the 2 QBs.  but will see when he polls a bigger list.

 

My point is I've seen enough where I get the strong impression that FO's in the NFL wouldn't see it crazy if they took Daniels -- not just coaches but FOs, too.  But will see I'll wait for Mcginn because his rankings are done 100% from FOs not coaches.

 

I am guessing but I don't know Kyle is one of Keim's sources on Daniels-Maye.  I explained why in another post.

 

While I prefer Maye and by a decent margin.  If these guys go Daniels I am gathering they have a plan for him.  Whether its modeling QBs with wheels like Russell Wilson who don't get hurt, building his frame, whatever.  These guys aren't stupid and ironically they are loading up with nutrition-sports science type of guys on that staff.

 

Having said that, I still think Maye has a 50% shot at this.  So if I was really down on Daniels, I wouldn't fret.  I think Daniels has a shot but it doesn't feel even remotely slam dunk.  

Edited April 11 by Skinsinparadise

[jg77]

5 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

 

This is part of why I wanted Ben Johnson. The Ben Johnson and Drake Maye Marriage seemed like a perfect fit of scheme to skill set and I thought we'd take Maye and bring him along perfectly and have a stud QB in 3 years. I didn't care how much we won during those 3 years. 

Kingsbury has not ever been an elite NFL OC. And we are going to make the defining choice of the next 10 years for the franchise around a guy that might just get a better job offer and be gone in 2 years, or be fired in 2 or 3 years? 

I want us to take the top prospect with the highest upside. The 22yo with the prototype body and arm and athleticism, that we have seen translate over, and over, and over. And, while I do think Jayden might be really good, I think the risks with him are under-discussed. It's not just his frame. I really just do not see his, take off up the gut running style working at the NFL level for a guy with any frame. And even if it does translate, how much did being an elite runner help Fields last year? Lamar is a waaaaay better runner, albeit, maybe a lesser passer, and even on one of the best, most well run and stable franchises in the NFL, with the whole game plan designed around his talents, Lamae has made ONE AFC Championship Game. Not Super Bowl, Championship Game. There just isn't the precedent of any Jayden Daniels type players that have brought their team the kind of success that I think all of us really want. And then there is that Jayden is a 5th year senior throwing to two ELITE athleties and first round WR's, behind a rock solid OL. I don't think that if we swapped Jayden over to UNC and Drake over to LSU for the last 2 years, that we would be having a discussion about which one is better. At all. Like, at all, at all. 

 

But I do think Jayden can be good and there is too much smoke for me, and I think he is going to be the pick. And honestly, if we were picking at 3, I'd be ecstatic. So, I am trying to put my big boy pants on and be ready for the pick. But I am going to feel like it is a mistake. 

Josh Allen has made one AFC Championship game, no Superbowl. Justin Herbert hasn't even won a single playoff game. 0-1 in 4 years.

 

Mahomes is the top guy and there is only one guy who's being compared to him which is Caleb Williams.

 

Edited April 11 by jg77

[skinsfan66]

1 hour ago, actorguy1 said:

https://theathletic.com/5375788/2024/04/11/nfl-draft-2024-top-quarterbacks/

 

One general manager’s text summarized his annoyance about pre-draft “noise.”

“Everything now is speculation,” he responded amid a series of exchanges. “The draft is the IPO, and the stock price of the pick will fluctuate with each practice, game and season. Time always tells the tale.”

 

Assessments from outside evaluators and information shared by reporters following the college football season shape the initial draft narratives. Anyone can watch game tapes. However, interviews with players or individuals who help teams fill in bios and backstories are one crucial piece of the prospect puzzle that is inaccessible to the public.

“I judged on film alone,” one former head coach said upon sharing his QB thoughts. “Not knowing the kid makes this tougher.”

As narrative shifts occur, online debates often become inflamed. Talking heads and opinionated fans become swayed or more entrenched. One example is the banter about Michigan quarterback J.J. McCarthy’s apparent rise from a mid-to-late first-round pick to joining the top-five conversation with LSU’s Jayden Daniels and North Carolina’s Drake Maye.

Led by general manager Adam Peters and coach Dan Quinn, the Washington Commanders have remained mum about their plans for the second overall pick. That makes life tricky for the mock draft community, national news breakers, sanity-seeking reporters and, more importantly, teams picking after Washington. The QB-needy New England Patriots have the third selection.

“I don’t think anyone in here really knows exactly what Washington is going to do,” Patriots coach Jerod Mayo said at last month’s league meetings.

Seventeen sources shared their takes on the top passing prospects in this year’s draft. This combined ranking used a 5-3-2-1 scoring system, with first-place votes in parentheses. Our group:

• Two active general managers
• Three personnel executives
• Three scouts
• One assistant/QBs coach
• Three former general managers
• One ex-head coach
• Four former players-turned-analysts, including two ex-quarterbacks

Other sources discussed the prospects but declined a rank order. The first-round answer key will be revealed when the draft commences April 25. The conjecture over which teams fared best will have only just begun.

1. Caleb Williams, USC — 78 points (14 first-place votes)

Outside of Williams going the John Elway or Eli Manning route, the 2022 Heisman Trophy winner is headed to Chicago as the No. 1 selection. No wonder all draft speculation starts with the Commanders at No. 2.

 

Trait comparisons to Kansas City Chiefs three-time Super Bowl champion Patrick Mahomes were sprinkled throughout discussions, though sources shied away from tagging Williams as the next Mahomes. Several sources mentioned Williams’ high floor as the highlight rather than the potential upside. Three panelists preferred Daniels, with one — fearing possible disruption from Williams’ famously involved camp — slotting the USC quarterback third. Otherwise, the panel has high hopes for one of the best QB prospects in years.

Scout 1: I understand the leadership concerns, but Williams has the most talent. He’s easily No. 1.

Former NFL QB and current NBC Sports analyst Chris Simms: (Williams) can throw every ball in the book. … He’s the best scrambler in the draft and the best off-platform. He’s got the best feel in the pocket. And then when there is nothing there, there is nobody better.

2. Jayden Daniels, LSU — 50 (3)

Only Williams and Daniels, the reigning Heisman Trophy winner, received first-place votes. Daniels’ experience (53 starts with Arizona State and LSU), development as a passer (40 touchdown passes in 2023, nine fewer than his previous four seasons combined) and dual-threat playmaking (1,134 rushing yards last season) had several sources speaking in glowing terms.

His thin frame — 6-foot-4, 210 pounds — and penchant for playing in traffic led to wicked collisions and long-term frets with panelists. However, his improvement and apparent fit with offensive coordinator Kliff Kingsbury’s up-tempo offense have made him a mock draft staple at No. 2. Washington will host Daniels for a visit starting Monday, a league source told The Athletic.

Assistant coach: Daniels is so good. … He is so much better than Maye and McCarthy. It’s not even close. Daniels can play NFL football right now.

Scout 2: Jayden probably made more progress than any quarterback coming out in the last five or six years. He can anticipate, make all the throws and is an explosive athlete. (As a scrambler), he’s not Lamar Jackson or Michael Vick. His ability to process (pre-snap) has improved as a passer, which is hard to do in one year. We know he started working with (virtual reality) this season. Got those VR reps, and that’s when he took off.

 

Scout 1: High upside but has a ton of room (to grow). It will take a couple of years, and the offense has to be tailored (to him). It’s going to be some wow but some ugly (plays). A lot like Justin Fields.

Former head coach: Jayden is QB2. He can start immediately, but he better learn to protect himself or he’ll be in the cold tub often.

Personnel executive 1: He could end up being the best one. Good athlete and arm talent. I think he sees it and can process. Big drop-off after him and Williams.

3. Drake Maye, North Carolina — 24

If these six passers were ranked on the level of polarization, Maye would be the runaway leader. Following the 2022 season, some circles saw him as Williams’ rival for QB1 draft status due to his prototype 6-foot-4, 223-pound size, deep passing strength, mobility and competitiveness. As a first-time starter, Maye was named ACC Player of the Year.

Following several offseason personnel changes at UNC, including losing offensive coordinator Phil Longo to Wisconsin, Maye’s performance and passing statistics dipped in 2023, especially against higher-end foes. The variance among these sources on Maye ranges from QB2 (Scout 1: “I think he will be the best of the group”) to being outside the top four. The highlight reels are strong, but so is the discussion of regression in decision-making, footwork and fundamentals amid a choppy final college season.

“I know a lot of people look at the ceiling, but you’ve also got to see how low the floor is,” Mayo said last month. “A guy like Drake Maye has a lot of room to grow. He’s a young guy. He hasn’t played football nearly as much (26 starts) as these other guys.”

The panel cited Maye as the quarterback in most need of a redshirt NFL season. That’s logical for a player who turns 22 in August. However, the assessment also shows a lack of clarity about the future.

Current GM: People are going to pick Maye apart. If he ends up being the best of the group, it won’t shock me. He is made of the right stuff.

Simms: If you watch 20 throws, you’ll see good throws. Then … the ball is all over the place. The decision-making can be all over the place, and the pocket presence is all over the place, let alone some mechanical flaws in how he throws the football. It (was) confirmed to me in his pro day, (which) was underwhelming. … He’s got all the size. He’s pretty athletic when he runs. I always hear (Maye is) like Justin Herbert coming out or Josh Allen, and my brain wants to explode.

 

Scout 1: Maye reminds me a lot of Herbert.

Assistant coach: Maye is Herbert light. Take everything Herbert does and make it less. They’ll be compared (because of the prototype size), but there’s no comparison. I like Maye, but when I see the amount of work it will take to have him reach his potential, we’ll be fired first.

Personnel executive 1: He scares the hell out of me. Longer thrower with a big arm but not quick release. Nothing feels like it happens in rhythm, and accuracy is average. Needs a year on the bench.

Former GM: He has accuracy you can’t teach and is only scratching the surface with his upside while he physically matures. Wait for years two and three. If he progresses, he can end up like Troy Aikman.

4. J.J. McCarthy, Michigan — 23 

Let’s start with the elephant in the room.

“I think the J.J. hype is real,” texted another personnel executive, who has McCarthy over Maye in his top four. “He’s extremely talented.”

Two sources ranked McCarthy QB2, and multiple panelists prefer his play-time processing and intangibles over other quarterbacks in this class. McCarthy’s sharp pro day has garnered praise beyond former Michigan coach and new Chargers coach Jim Harbaugh.

Some panelists pushed back on the top-five potential based on limited usage at times despite effectively quarterbacking the Wolverines to a national championship and a 27-1 record over the past two seasons.

“I need to watch McCarthy more,” said one GM, who grades McCarthy outside of Round 1, “but I never saw (the positives) we’re hearing about him now. J.J. never had to carry Michigan and was driving a damn Cadillac.”

 

McCarthy executes plays on time in structure, is willing to take shots over the middle and has needed athleticism. One source compared him to San Francisco 49ers starter Brock Purdy, whose traits meshed perfectly in Kyle Shanahan’s offense.

Assistant coach: (McCarthy’s) technique is jacked up, but when we met him (this draft cycle), he knew he had to work on layering the ball. Maye is more of a sandlot passer. J.J. is probably better at working from the pocket in the long term. I’d probably take him (third).

Scout 1: I don’t love (McCarthy). He’s a winner and has all the intangibles, but I wouldn’t say I like his arm and think the athlete is a little overrated. He reminds me of Daniel Jones.

Scout 2: These top four quarterbacks are all better than Zach Wilson (2021 No. 2 pick) and Trey Lance (2021 No. 3 pick) coming out. Daniels, Maye and McCarthy could go in any order, depending on your preferred flavor.

It would be real if all 17 not 8 were GM's and not media former players , coaches ,GM's talk pieces for their station like Sims and Hodges. We have heard the stories of the other 9 how many times? Or give the 8 GM's opinion 's only. 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

3 minutes ago, jg77 said:

Josh Allen has made one AFC Championship game, no Superbowl. Justin Herbert hasn't even won a single playoff game. 0-1 in 4 years.

 

Mahomes is the top guy and there is only one guy who's being compared to him which is Caleb Williams.

 

 

Mahomes is the best QB in the NFL, so QB's always get compared to him. Zach Wilson was supposed to be very Mahomes-esque.

 

Advanced stats say Caleb Williams playstyle and the effectiveness of it is more akin to Russell Wilson than Mahomes. Chicago would still be pretty happy if Caleb winds up like a mid-2010's Wilson.

[jg77]

2 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

Mahomes is the best QB in the NFL, so QB's always get compared to him. Zach Wilson was supposed to be very Mahomes-esque.

 

Advanced stats say Caleb Williams playstyle and the effectiveness of it is more akin to Russell Wilson than Mahomes. Chicago would still be pretty happy if Caleb winds up like a mid-2010's Wilson.

 

I remember that Zach Wilson hype. I agree and think it's a bit of reach to compare Caleb to a guy that's on GOAT trajectory...but the tape does show that he's really good.

[Skinsinparadise]

19 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

 

This is part of why I wanted Ben Johnson. The Ben Johnson and Drake Maye Marriage seemed like a perfect fit of scheme to skill set and I thought we'd take Maye and bring him along perfectly and have a stud QB in 3 years. I didn't care how much we won during those 3 years. 

 

 

I wanted Ben Johnson was good with Quinn.  But as I've digested more about Johnson, i agree with Sheehan we likely dodged a bullet.

 

19 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

 

Kingsbury has not ever been an elite NFL OC. And we are going to make the defining choice of the next 10 years for the franchise around a guy that might just get a better job offer and be gone in 2 years, or be fired in 2 or 3 years? 

 

Kingsbury has been decent at scoping out young QBs and developing them.  I gather that's part of the method to the madness of the hire.  But agree his track record as to running an offense is checkered.

 

19 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

I want us to take the top prospect with the highest upside. The 22yo with the prototype body and arm and athleticism, that we have seen translate over, and over, and over.

 

Me too.  But i do think some teams don't all read upside the same way.

 

For example Kenny Pickett, Malik Willis.  That draft.  Willis with a ton of upside but he was raw.  Pickett not raw but more accurate.  Pitt went with Pickett.  Both players look like busts.

 

While I am a Maye guy.  Tough for me to say if they take Daniels that a QB who likely runs 4.4, is the first in the building (I was listening to his HC talk about this some more last night on Path to the Draft), works hard and might not be peaking yet (I posted the article about the German technology he's been using to help process and study defenses better) and has good accuracy -- has some yawn level upside. 

 

Like you i am more intrigued by Maye's upside and concerned about Daniels durability.

 

 

19 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

 

 

But I do think Jayden can be good and there is too much smoke for me, and I think he is going to be the pick. And honestly, if we were picking at 3, I'd be ecstatic. So, I am trying to put my big boy pants on and be ready for the pick. But I am going to feel like it is a mistake. 

 

Coming from a dude who posted a lot of that smoke.  I genuinely think its likely close between the two of them in their eyes and these vists next week can tip the balance.  Daniels to me doesn't feel slam dunk.  Wouldn't shock me if its Maye at all.  McCarthy would be the shock for me.

Edited April 11 by Skinsinparadise

[Warhead36]

Everything about the new approach SHOULD be Maye. Long term thinking("no shortcuts.") Analytics driven. More raw upside. There is literally no logical reason why this regime would take Daniels over Maye. If this were Rivera/Snyder then yeah, they would 100% take Daniels. 

 

My fear is that Peters wants Maye but he's being persuaded by Quinn to take Daniels because mobile QBs are harder to gameplan against and Daniels reminds him too much of Jordan Love who kicked his defense's ass in the playoffs. Its not out of the realm of possibility that a first time GM get persuaded by a veteran coach on his first ever draft pick. It was a theory Sheehan mentioned yesterday and it just seems far too plausible. 

 

I hope Peters nuts up and says "No, we're taking Maye, and y'all are gonna build the offense and team around him." But I think there is a way too realistic chance we take Daniels and watch Maye rebuild a Patriot dynasty over the next decade.

Edited April 11 by Warhead36

[shemp nixon]

18 minutes ago, jg77 said:

Josh Allen has made one AFC Championship game, no Superbowl. Justin Herbert hasn't even won a single playoff game. 0-1 in 4 years.

 

Mahomes is the top guy and there is only one guy who's being compared to him which is Caleb Williams.

 

I have watched JA put his team ahead late in those games only to have the D piss it away.

[Anselmheifer]

10 minutes ago, jg77 said:

Josh Allen has made one AFC Championship game, no Superbowl. Justin Herbert hasn't even won a single playoff game. 0-1 in 4 years.

 

Mahomes is the top guy and there is only one guy who's being compared to him which is Caleb Williams.

 

 

It's not about two prospects for me. It's about the historical success rate of ALL of the NFL prospects that look similar to Daniels vs Maye. My point was that Lamar is the poster child for what Daniels could be, best case scenario. And we haven't really seen a more successful example, I don't think. But you could go back in history and name 20 NFL hall of famers that have the body and traits and play style of Maye.

For a second I was just thinking, "Maybe Michael Vick would be a good counter to my argument". Nope, ZERO Championship Games. 

I just think it would appear that it is easier to scheme to stop a QB who's success depends on running, once you get to the playoffs. And they don't tend to have as many prime years. With regards to Josh Allen vs Lamar, nobody is even thinking about Allen falling off a cliff. They expect another 6-8 years. Would anybody be surprised if if Lamar had an injury next year, lost a bit of athleticism and wasn't the same? Russel Wilson fell off a cliff after his age 32 season as a scrambling QB. He wasn't even a runner like these other guys we are discussing with Daniels. 

[Panninho]

Taking Daniels over Maye to me feels like taking Tua over Herbert. Physically inferior guy who was uber productive on an absolutelely stacked college team but, relatively speaking, has limited upside. It's taking the safer route. 

Taking Maye is like taking AR witch much less risk. You shoot for the potential and if you hit, you welcome the glory days. I think if JD hits his ceiling, he can make you a perennial playoff contender but he will never be a top of the league QB. Maye has the potential to become a top 2-3 QB in this league. Mahomes, Allen, Herbert are probably the top-3 QBs in the league right now. I think Maye has the potential to reach their level. Lamar, is probably right behind with Burrow. Lamar often gets thrown out there as a comparison for JD but Lamar has a much stronger arm and a much more athletic body than JD. I don't think that JD's ceiling is close to the player that Lamar is at this point. FWIW Lamar had hist first MVP season at 22 year, the same age JD was this past college season.

 

I just want to be aggressive and shoot for the top, not for the floor. If we take JD, I'll be disappointed. I'll accept it and will support him obviously but I will not be pumped on draft day.

 

 

[jg77]

2 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

 

It's not about two prospects for me. It's about the historical success rate of ALL of the NFL prospects that look similar to Daniels vs Maye. My point was that Lamar is the poster child for what Daniels could be, best case scenario. And we haven't really seen a more successful example, I don't think. But you could go back in history and name 20 NFL hall of famers that have the body and traits and play style of Maye.

For a second I was just thinking, "Maybe Michael Vick would be a good counter to my argument". Nope, ZERO Championship Games. 

I just think it would appear that it is easier to scheme to stop a QB who's success depends on running, once you get to the playoffs. And they don't tend to have as many prime years. With regards to Josh Allen vs Lamar, nobody is even thinking about Allen falling off a cliff. They expect another 6-8 years. Would anybody be surprised if if Lamar had an injury next year, lost a bit of athleticism and wasn't the same? Russel Wilson fell off a cliff after his age 32 season as a scrambling QB. He wasn't even a runner like these other guys we are discussing with Daniels. 

I wouldn't be surprised if Josh Allen falls off. He plays a lot like Cam Newton but all it takes is one hit.

[Skinsinparadise]

I'll add three more points on this.

 

A. As a layman, even i can see how different it is for a player to sling the ball in person.  You see the velocity and accuracy so much better.  Our GM, our scouts have seen that, we haven't.  I've talked about this from watching camp.  It's not and day different from watching on TV.

 

B. As someone who owns a business, I've interviewed people to work for me or for my clients and their reputation doesn't always match the vibe I get when I get to meet them or talk to them in person.  And double that point is having a chance to talk to people who actually worked with these people tends to give me a good windown into their makeup.  Again this is something this team has the opportunity to do.  We don't.

 

C. I've heard to death from coaches they like to see up close how these players process what they throw at them.  Again this is something this team has the opportunity to do.  We don't.

 

Not saying this means they pick the right QB.  It's a crapshoot.  So many get it wrong.   And while i value my opinion as much as the next person, I don't think I am the one person who has finally cracked the code.  But my point is the odds that they know things about both players that we don't is 100%.  Now they still can of course make the wrong call with more info.  But I like this FO and I like their chances to get it right so whomever they take -- even McCarthy  I'll ride with it initially without complaint.

 

And look none of this means I am pessimistic its Maye.  It's the opposite.  These visits are the best chance for these QBs to stand out.  So i think Maye has a fighting chance for the reasons i lay out here.

Edited April 11 by Skinsinparadise

[DogofWar1]

People need to not be setting the standard for success at QB based on SB wins.

 

Yes it's what you want but 7 of the last 10 were won by 2 dudes.

 

Probably need to almost look at the championships or even the divisional rounds since 1/4 spots (and 1/2 spots in the AFC) was spoken for 6/10 years.

 

 

Also poor Philip Rivers man.

[Anselmheifer]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I wanted Ben Johnson was good with Quinn.  But as I've digested more about Johnson, i agree with Sheehan we likely dodged a bullet.

 

 

 

 

Just to be clear, I don't think Ben Johnson would have led us to a better record than Quinn. I prefer Quinn as a coach. I just thought Johnson was the perfect guy to bring up a young QB, and I didn't care about wins in the first few years. Maybe that's naive. 

And just to be clear, I feel like it comes off that I'm crapping on Daniels and don't like him at all as a prospect. I like Daniels. Again, if we were picking at 3, I would be ecstatic to draft Daniels. I just think that picking the older guy with less traits, less historical precedent in terms of similar prospects, and some concerning analytics is bad process. Daniels could still wind up being better than Maye. 

[mistertim]

4 minutes ago, jg77 said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Josh Allen falls off. He plays a lot like Cam Newton but all it takes is one hit.

 

Allen is nothing like Cam. Cam was an overall mediocre-at-best passer who's main threat was his legs. Once his legs weren't a big threat anymore he did nothing and was out of the league. Allen is an elite passer first, but can run second. Those are the kinds of guys who stick around for a long time and have long term success in the NFL.

 

It's a nonsensical comparison.

[skinsfan66]

25 minutes ago, Andre The Giant said:

 

Nice having a front office that does it's Job. And not what the media, sexy pick, putting fans in the stands, quick fix...But who they believe in to take this team to the next level.

 

[jg77]

Just now, mistertim said:

 

Allen is nothing like Cam. Cam was an overall mediocre-at-best passer who's main threat was his legs. Once his legs weren't a big threat anymore he did nothing and was out of the league. Allen is an elite passer first, but can run second. Those are the kinds of guys who stick around for a long time and have long term success in the NFL.

 

It's a nonsensical comparison.

Josh Allen is definitely a better passer but he doesn't protect himself at all when running the football...and all it takes is one hit. He runs just like Cam. I don't think JA would be as effective if he couldn't use his legs as much since it's a huge part of his game.

[Dah-Dee]

I think it's notable that both Peters and Quinn have talked more than once about learning from the past - Peters regarding the Lance debacle, Quinn about delegating and trusting those around/under him - and it seems applicable to the QB choice here. In that context, the pre-draft process is feeling more and more like a 'good' version of the SF 2021 story. 

 

I found a transcript of a 2021 post-draft interview with SF GM John Lynch and HC Kyle Shanahan, and subbed in Peters/Quinn/Maye/Daniels where applicable. Enjoy 🤪

 

https://www.49ers.com/news/kyle-shanahan-john-lynch-trey-lance-nfl-draft-quarterback-north-dakota-state

 

Transcripts: Adam Peters and Dan Quinn Review Day 1 of the 2024 Draft

I was hoping you guys could walk us through the timeline on this decision? The storyline out there is that QB Drake Maye was the guy that you liked about a month ago ... but that QB Jayden Daniels has made sort of a furious comeback in the last couple of weeks. Is that accurate?

 

Head Coach Dan Quinn: "No, it's not. We can go back to January for the timeline, which we don't have enough time to go all the way through. This is something that started since our season ended and our evaluation of people and starting with where we thought people were going to be available, going to people who we thought could be on the trade market, everything. We've been very high on Drake since the beginning, since day one. Yes, the person everyone else was speculating about, we liked him, too. Just honestly, to go through this whole process where no one has known, my friends, coaches, anybody, how [general manager] Adam [Peters] and I feel and how we felt this whole time. We do that because you don't want to sway people in this building. You want everyone to give you, just work their butts off and give you their honest info and that's why we don't share at all how we felt about our conversations....

 

Now, we wanted an opportunity to go and look at everybody, but I think just looking at this whole process, I think I was in Indianapolis the day we made the nice comments about Jayden and within hours, there's at least two people who are out there speculating that their opinions are they think we're taking Jayden Daniels and ever since then, I've kind of just watched every single person assume that that was accurate and that those weren't opinions, those were facts. We didn't feel that way from the beginning. I wouldn't have said there's no chance we wouldn't have. We were going to go through this process and I would never have said it couldn't have ended up being him, but I know how we felt about Drake the whole time.

 

To watch that happen and to kind of watch everyone just assume, because a couple people say something, that's exactly how you feel, we weren't going to work to correct that. At all. I thought that could be an advantage for us, especially when you look into stuff that just came out today. Stuff that, I mean, you never know with this league. If the whole NFL is assuming you're doing one thing and you're not doing that, I'm not going to work hard, and Adam, we're not going to work hard to correct that.

 

So, let that be, and whatever way that went, it was going to go and it was crazy to watch where it all went, but no one has known anything but us. So, it's been fun to watch. I haven't been in many situations in my career like that and when you get an opportunity to go through something like that, it is really cool to find out about people in your building, how they handle it. It's really cool to kind of watch people in the media, too, a little bit and just see who gives opinions, who gives some sources that you watch it and you're like, 'All right, I know that's not true. So where's that going?' And you just get to see people for two months and how things are. I haven't been in many situations like that and it was kind of neat to see. You learn a lot about your organization. You learn a lot about other people, but you try to lower your head and you try to do what's right and not be affected by any of that. It's just been interesting to watch and sure glad that it's over. I'm glad that we got our guy. I'm glad we feel so good about it and I'm just pumped to get him here."

 

General Manager Adam Peters: " I think the only thing I'll add to that, because that's a really good timeline, and I think a pretty comprehensive outlook and kind of where we've been, but I think the blessing of it all was that we got to tell Drake Maye and Drake Maye didn't know before that. We got to make a young man's dreams and a family's dreams. I think we got to know a person that impressed us as much on the field as he did off the field and he was outstanding in both ways. That goes for a lot of these guys, but with Drake, that was a special moment to be able to talk to him because I think it was true surprise. He had a hunch, I believe, and I'm interested to hear from him, but that was the first time he heard it when we were able to call him. So, that was a pretty special moment."

 

This is for Dan. Adam, you said that you were going to defer to Dan for this decision. Take us through Drake Maye. What is it about him that was attractive to you?

 

DQ: "I mean, I could talk about that for a while, because it goes into so many different areas, but it always starts with me with the film. I try to watch a guy play the quarterback position, how he executes his own offense. Just kind of the natural feeling he has for the quarterback position, which, that part entails getting the ball to the right spots. You try to figure out what plays they're doing and does the ball go to where it should go to? When nothing is there, how quick are they to recognize and make it off schedule or to get rid of it, just not take a sack and don't make it worse?

 

You start to watch some of that stuff with him and I just, I loved his natural ability to play the position, which was very impressive. Then when you add on a type of running element, which I've always been intrigued with but when you've got a guy who's got the skillsets, as far as speed and size to where you're not going to make them a runner, but if you can get in certain formations where the defense knows you will run them, if they don't honor them, now everything's different. If you can ever get a guy like that and make 11 on 11 football, then I think you've got a guy who can change some things for you, but it always comes down to, 'Yeah, you can dabble in that,' but you better be confident they can do everything else."

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

 

Just to be clear, I don't think Ben Johnson would have led us to a better record than Quinn. I prefer Quinn as a coach. I just thought Johnson was the perfect guy to bring up a young QB, and I didn't care about wins in the first few years. Maybe that's naive. 

And just to be clear, I feel like it comes off that I'm crapping on Daniels and don't like him at all as a prospect. I like Daniels. Again, if we were picking at 3, I would be ecstatic to draft Daniels. I just think that picking the older guy with less traits, less historical precedent in terms of similar prospects, and some concerning analytics is bad process. Daniels could still wind up being better than Maye. 

 

It's tough for me to keep responding to these type of posts without coming off like I prefer Daniels.  I prefer Maye.

 

I'll just say I am higher than some here on his running ability.  I don't think this FO-coaching staff is stupid so i am gathering if they took him they'd have a plan for trying to keep him whole.   Its tough for me to be not excited about a QB who can likely run 4.4ish and is fairly accurate and works extremely hard.

 

There are downsides to Daniels too.  I've pointed them out.  He's getting beaten up enough on this thread where I don't feel the need to repeat them.

 

If I had to sum up my point.

 

A.  I like Maye better.  I like his upside better

B.  I am not ruling out all of Maye's critics are wrong.  I think they are wrong but I don't know with 100% certainty that they are wrong.

C.  I don't even remotely think personnel guys in the league see it that Maye is the slam dunk choice based on what I've read so far. But will see with McGinn next week maybe my perspective changes then. My point i don't think the whole world is with us, or all the smart football people are with us as to Maye > Daniels.  Some are.  But its clear some aren't. 

D.  Daniels has intriguing talent and plenty of upside himself.  But am not as intrigued with him

E.  My concern with Daniels is durability,  But if they take him, i got no doubt they are as aware of this concern as we are so I presume they got a plan to help mitigate it.

[DogofWar1]

Indeed I think you have to ask who are these guys once the wheels are gone.

 

Now Daniels to his credit isn't a bad passer.  But is he a really good passer?  I mean at the college level sure but at the NFL level?  Without the running?

 

Ideally you want a QB who is playing through 35-36.  Most guys who needed legs to elevate were mostly done by 30-32.

 

I don't know the answer to the above questions insofar as Daniels, but I think if you pick him you want to feel confident the answers are yes.

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, skinsfan66 said:

Nice having a front office that does it's Job. And not what the media, sexy pick, putting fans in the stands, quick fix...But who they believe in to take this team to the next level.

 

 

I absolutely believe this.  Regardless of their pick is the same as who i would.  

 

IMO zero chance in that FO they are saying look this other dude will likely be the better QB in 2-3 years.  Lets take this guy instead because he would be better this year -- we aren't really intrigued by their upside but we need to win some games this year.  No chance IMO.

 

Heck if we are going purely for year 1.  It wouldn't shock me if Bo Nix is good.  He can run a WCO with short conservative throws, has some wheels.  He to me is a 2nd rounder.  But considering his age and style of play, I bet he's not bad in year 1. 

 

[jg77]

4 minutes ago, Dah-Dee said:

I think it's notable that both Peters and Quinn have talked more than once about learning from the past - Peters regarding the Lance debacle, Quinn about delegating and trusting those around/under him - and it seems applicable to the QB choice here. In that context, the pre-draft process is feeling more and more like a 'good' version of the SF 2021 story. 

 

I found a transcript of a 2021 post-draft interview with SF GM John Lynch and HC Kyle Shanahan, and subbed in Peters/Quinn/Maye/Daniels where applicable. Enjoy 🤪

 

https://www.49ers.com/news/kyle-shanahan-john-lynch-trey-lance-nfl-draft-quarterback-north-dakota-state

 

Transcripts: Adam Peters and Dan Quinn Review Day 1 of the 2024 Draft

I was hoping you guys could walk us through the timeline on this decision? The storyline out there is that QB Drake Maye was the guy that you liked about a month ago ... but that QB Jayden Daniels has made sort of a furious comeback in the last couple of weeks. Is that accurate?

 

Head Coach Dan Quinn: "No, it's not. We can go back to January for the timeline, which we don't have enough time to go all the way through. This is something that started since our season ended and our evaluation of people and starting with where we thought people were going to be available, going to people who we thought could be on the trade market, everything. We've been very high on Drake since the beginning, since day one. Yes, the person everyone else was speculating about, we liked him, too. Just honestly, to go through this whole process where no one has known, my friends, coaches, anybody, how [general manager] Adam [Peters] and I feel and how we felt this whole time. We do that because you don't want to sway people in this building. You want everyone to give you, just work their butts off and give you their honest info and that's why we don't share at all how we felt about our conversations....

 

Now, we wanted an opportunity to go and look at everybody, but I think just looking at this whole process, I think I was in Indianapolis the day we made the nice comments about Jayden and within hours, there's at least two people who are out there speculating that their opinions are they think we're taking Jayden Daniels and ever since then, I've kind of just watched every single person assume that that was accurate and that those weren't opinions, those were facts. We didn't feel that way from the beginning. I wouldn't have said there's no chance we wouldn't have. We were going to go through this process and I would never have said it couldn't have ended up being him, but I know how we felt about Drake the whole time.

 

To watch that happen and to kind of watch everyone just assume, because a couple people say something, that's exactly how you feel, we weren't going to work to correct that. At all. I thought that could be an advantage for us, especially when you look into stuff that just came out today. Stuff that, I mean, you never know with this league. If the whole NFL is assuming you're doing one thing and you're not doing that, I'm not going to work hard, and Adam, we're not going to work hard to correct that.

 

So, let that be, and whatever way that went, it was going to go and it was crazy to watch where it all went, but no one has known anything but us. So, it's been fun to watch. I haven't been in many situations in my career like that and when you get an opportunity to go through something like that, it is really cool to find out about people in your building, how they handle it. It's really cool to kind of watch people in the media, too, a little bit and just see who gives opinions, who gives some sources that you watch it and you're like, 'All right, I know that's not true. So where's that going?' And you just get to see people for two months and how things are. I haven't been in many situations like that and it was kind of neat to see. You learn a lot about your organization. You learn a lot about other people, but you try to lower your head and you try to do what's right and not be affected by any of that. It's just been interesting to watch and sure glad that it's over. I'm glad that we got our guy. I'm glad we feel so good about it and I'm just pumped to get him here."

 

General Manager Adam Peters: " I think the only thing I'll add to that, because that's a really good timeline, and I think a pretty comprehensive outlook and kind of where we've been, but I think the blessing of it all was that we got to tell Drake Maye and Drake Maye didn't know before that. We got to make a young man's dreams and a family's dreams. I think we got to know a person that impressed us as much on the field as he did off the field and he was outstanding in both ways. That goes for a lot of these guys, but with Drake, that was a special moment to be able to talk to him because I think it was true surprise. He had a hunch, I believe, and I'm interested to hear from him, but that was the first time he heard it when we were able to call him. So, that was a pretty special moment."

 

This is for Dan. Adam, you said that you were going to defer to Dan for this decision. Take us through Drake Maye. What is it about him that was attractive to you?

 

DQ: "I mean, I could talk about that for a while, because it goes into so many different areas, but it always starts with me with the film. I try to watch a guy play the quarterback position, how he executes his own offense. Just kind of the natural feeling he has for the quarterback position, which, that part entails getting the ball to the right spots. You try to figure out what plays they're doing and does the ball go to where it should go to? When nothing is there, how quick are they to recognize and make it off schedule or to get rid of it, just not take a sack and don't make it worse?

 

You start to watch some of that stuff with him and I just, I loved his natural ability to play the position, which was very impressive. Then when you add on a type of running element, which I've always been intrigued with but when you've got a guy who's got the skillsets, as far as speed and size to where you're not going to make them a runner, but if you can get in certain formations where the defense knows you will run them, if they don't honor them, now everything's different. If you can ever get a guy like that and make 11 on 11 football, then I think you've got a guy who can change some things for you, but it always comes down to, 'Yeah, you can dabble in that,' but you better be confident they can do everything else."

 

 

Can't wait to see this spread through other outlets as real lol

[Panninho]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

B. As someone who owns a business, I've interviewed people to work for me or for my clients and their reputation doesn't always match the vibe I get when I get to meet them or talk to them in person.  And double that point is having a chance to talk to people who actually worked with these people tends to give me a good windown into their makeup.  Again this is something this team has the opportunity to do.  We don't.

 

C. I've heard to death from coaches they like to see up close how these players process what they throw at them.  Again this is something this team has the opportunity to do.  We don't,

I think this point is much more about sorting out red flags than actually learning about potential. Because if you could determine these factors in an interview, why wouldn't they show up on the field? You sort out a Johnny Manziel guy but that's about it.

Every one of these GMs and coaches always says how important it is to meet the people in person and get to know them, throw stuff at them and see how they handle it, etc.. The NFL has that opportunity over everyone else and yet these people are basically as successful as the average football fan in sorting out the QB position. If you would draft primarily by the PFF board and then only sort out players where you learned about red flags, you probably had a higher success at running a successful draft than most NFL teams.

 

Sometimes I honestly feel like these meetings actually do the opposite of what they should do. People who are charismatic, articulate and relatable sway you without actually proving anything. It's the biggest issue with job interviews. People generally vastly overestimate their abilities to judge other people from personal encounters. Everyone who sat in on job interviews before knows the feeling of having a charming guy win you over and then underperform.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, DogofWar1 said:

Indeed I think you have to ask who are these guys once the wheels are gone.

 

Now Daniels to his credit isn't a bad passer.  But is he a really good passer?  I mean at the college level sure but at the NFL level?  Without the running?

 

Ideally you want a QB who is playing through 35-36.  Most guys who needed legs to elevate were mostly done by 30-32.

 

I don't know the answer to the above questions insofar as Daniels, but I think if you pick him you want to feel confident the answers are yes.

 

Absolutely I think they have to believe whomever they take including Daniels can be successful long term as a passer.

 

I got no fear they take a short term fix over a QB they are higher on long term.