All things defense

[Koolblue13]

Gilmore isn't going to sign with anybody right now and why would he?

 

He'll be on a roster come August and I hope it's with us, although Juste might be alright.

 

If there is any doubt, Gilmore, who already knows the coaches and scheme, will play for us.

 

It wouldn't surprise me to see a few more vets added to the roster before the preseason starts.

[RandyHolt]

1 hour ago, philibusters said:

I am hopeful about Michael Davis too.  His stats and PFF grade were much better in 2022 compared to 2023 which is probably why the Chargers let him go.  In 2022 he had a 73 PFF grade, in 2023 he had a 57 PFF grade.  He in 2022 he gave up 434 yards on 75 targets and in 2023 he gave up 778 yards on 95 targets.   That said, PFF doesn't account for difficulty of assignments and if he had to cover the X receiver a lot with out much help that would be considered a tougher assignment.  Plus corner has more natural variability year to year than most other positions.  He definitely could end up being a key cog in this defense.

 

In terms of Gilmore, I feel like he'll likely have options.  Adam Peters' moves so far indicated he wants to maintain future flexibility and that includes rolling as much cap as possible into next year.   I am sure if we offered Gilmore a decent amount of money say 10 or 11 million for one year, we could sign him, but if we are hoping to get him on a cheaper 1 year 5 million dollar deal its probably going to be difficult as probably multiple contenders are willing to pay him that for a season which is what I meant when I said I think he'll have options.

 

Chargers defense was a hot mess. Finally **** canned defensive guru Staley - maybe Davis's PFF got a bump up when he finally got axed. Look at our DBs last year. Totally destroyed and embarrassed the entire year. Were all our DBs that bad? Hell no. We had a nobody failed high school DB coach tell them to just go get interceptions - not to worry about double moves. Reading up on some angry charger fans posts, Staley didn't blitz much at all and had trash linebackers. Sound familiar?

 

"Last year (2022) we used press/soft press to slow down routes. This year we seem to play a ton of off man alignments" BINGO.

"Good coaches can do more with less and know how to get the most out of their players. Staley actually does the complete opposite and makes elite players look terrible"

"I don’t think Staley nor the coaches he’s been able to hire have done anything good. He hired a bunch of nobodies"

"Staley is an egotistical maniac who believes he is a genius."

 

I'm dying laughing but it sounds like JDR. The Chargers got wrecked with injuries on offense which may have exacerbated Davis getting worked on D. Sounds like they had Davis playing off.  Let's just call stuck inside the Carlos Cushion. Yeah I am still irritated we took a big physical corner and had him playing off his entire career - even on 4th and 4 needing a stop at the end of the game. So far off all the damn time he couldn't see the damn ball. Maybe one day PFF will track every snap the Carlos Cushion corners give.

 

Davis seems a perfect fit in the Quinn vision of playing simple fast and aggressive. So does BSJ - if he uses them to their strengths AND generates a pass rush to make press man work. Quinn stunts a ton and with our underwhelming cast at pass rush edge - I expect our DC to attack at the LOS far more on early downs and earlier in game than we have ever seen. Like I want and expect every damn year lol.

[RandyHolt]

Here is the chargers reddit after we signed Michael Davis. Who we will soon be calling Vato, apparently. Only real complaint may be consistency or lost a step.  We look at players in a vacuum at times and forget - offensive guys get paid, too. How the hell can a corner facing studs week after week ever be perfectly consistent.

 

Top Comment Thread snip courtesy to those that despise going to Reddit.

 

 

 

 

Davis identifies with his Mexican heritage down to the tattoos of Emiliano Zapata, a Mexican revolutionary, on one leg and Mexican artists Diego Rivera and Frida Kahlo on the other. He's fluent in Spanish as well and loves the nickname that Chargers safety Jahleel Addae gave him during his rookie year in 2017 -- "Vato," which means dude, homeboy or friend. It stuck. Now everybody calls Davis "Vato."

 

 

 

Edited June 26 by RandyHolt

[RandyHolt]

We gotta stalker. Which one of you is Hogs_Haven.

 

Their write up on Vato

 

https://www.hogshaven.com/2024/6/26/24179931/the-5-oclock-club-the-free-agent-cb-signed-by-commanders-from-the-chargers-to-replace-kendall-fuller

Edited June 26 by RandyHolt

[Commander Wolffe]

 

[RandyHolt]

Martin becoming a full time starter would go a long ways to salvaging Dan's final draft but with subs rampant on D and our adds on the backend, a realistic bar is more a situational player for this year IMO. GMs drool over the hybrid types but it appears a struggle for them to do ALL their envisioned roles as well as someone full time in a single position. Full plate mentally with dumb DCs pushing a complicated confusing schemes that only confuse their players, never the QB. Exhibit A: JDR

 

Prototypical body types speed etc obviously factor in success and failures in their flexing. I assume the flex guys are targeted in their weakest roles by ruthless OCs and QBs.  I would.

Edited July 4 by RandyHolt

[Conn]

I don’t see Martin as a hybrid/tweener player personally, I think as long as he’s healthy he’ll see the vast majority of defensive snaps as a starter. He was one of the only defensive players that Quinn was visibly excited about from day 1. 

[MrJL]

Thinking about it, isn't this whole tweener thing just a return to asking strong safeties to do what they did in the 80s?

 

I bet Alvin Walton would have been labeled a tweener in the 80s

[RandyHolt]

9 hours ago, MrJL said:

Thinking about it, isn't this whole tweener thing just a return to asking strong safeties to do what they did in the 80s?

 

I bet Alvin Walton would have been labeled a tweener in the 80s

#40!  He'd be a linebacker now lol - look at them pads. With the fullback to cover... who's now a WR.

 

Its more a passing league now and that box safety has be able to handle his own in pass coverage. IMO DCs seem quick to yank them for pure coverage DBs more than ever.

Edited July 5 by RandyHolt

[Koolblue13]

2 hours ago, MrJL said:

Thinking about it, isn't this whole tweener thing just a return to asking strong safeties to do what they did in the 80s?

 

I bet Alvin Walton would have been labeled a tweener in the 80s

Safeties were all kinda bigger corners, until Dan Reeves had to stop Marcus Allen, Bo Jackson and most importantly, Christian Okoye. Enter Steve A****er, who was a bigger banger and created the box safety/buffalo, whatever. The late 70's to early 90's was the era of the premier RB, so you needed that guy who could missle up through traffic and explode in the hole or chase to the edge.

 

 

[Conn]

Extremely funny profanity filter misfire 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

80's defense was crazy. The famous Bears 46 defense (that won it all in '85) was named after a hybrid player wearing 46 that made it possible. He was a LB/S/CB I think who lined up in the box but could drop and cover whoever. So they had a super stacked front against the run but could somehow split to man cover whatever the opponent wanted to run against it.

 

Unless my memory was wrong, that's the story.

[FuriousD]

On 7/4/2024 at 8:41 PM, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

80's defense was crazy. The famous Bears 46 defense (that won it all in '85) was named after a hybrid player wearing 46 that made it possible. He was a LB/S/CB I think who lined up in the box but could drop and cover whoever. So they had a super stacked front against the run but could somehow split to man cover whatever the opponent wanted to run against it.

 

Unless my memory was wrong, that's the story.

Doug Plank is the guy you’re thinking of. Strong safety who wore 46 but not sure he was on the ‘85 squad. Dave Duerson was the starting SS that year. Holy crap what a monster defense that was!!

[SkinsFTW]

17 hours ago, FuriousD said:

Doug Plank is the guy you’re thinking of. Strong safety who wore 46 but not sure he was on the ‘85 squad. Dave Duerson was the starting SS that year. Holy crap what a monster defense that was!!

 

That defense was great, but they got lucky that they didn't have to face Marino again in the SB

[Darrell Green Fan]

On 6/26/2024 at 7:49 AM, Koolblue13 said:

Gilmore isn't going to sign with anybody right now and why would he?

 

He'll be on a roster come August and I hope it's with us, although Juste might be alright.

 

If there is any doubt, Gilmore, who already knows the coaches and scheme, will play for us.

 

It wouldn't surprise me to see a few more vets added to the roster before the preseason starts.

 

I'm still holding out hope that we sign Gilmore. It's the weakest group on the team IMO and this is such a natural fit.  

[RandyHolt]

I think BSJ will be fine in our scheme. Quinn tipped his hand IMO by inking Vato another big physical press corner.  PFF ranked them both top 10ish? physical corners. I am ALL-IN like I am every time we get a new DC. This time feels different. No pure proven elite edge - we will need our DBs to buy them time to make the Quinn scheme work.

 

I think we will have our corners consistently closer to the LOS than anyone will be able to rekall - I will predict ever. To be clear LOS = line of scrimmage not CarLOS Rogers of Carlos Cushion fame. It still boggles my mind how poorly we deployed him while exacerbating his poor eyesight WRT drops. It pains to remember LOS playing off in Cover 2 never getting a hand on a DeSean dropping into his zone with no WR in sight, and then watching Laron "LB" Landry struggling to make the play.

 

I hope Jamin spent this offseason studying Parson's moves. Jamin filling that role in even an average way may be a difference maker on our D.

 

Seeing him only wearing glasses when in SF was a kick in the coconuts.

Edited July 7 by RandyHolt

[skinny21]

2 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

I'm still holding out hope that we sign Gilmore. It's the weakest group on the team IMO and this is such a natural fit.  

Certainly fair to see it as the weakest group.  To me, it’s an enigma.  There’s some talent there (and I’m intrigued by the UDFAs), but it’s hard to have any real confidence - there’s no one you can point to as a good corner, even if I’m high on Sainristil (and Martin if he were to play in the slot).

 

I’m not expecting much, in part because of the lack of proven production and in part because we lack a dominant type of DE.  Hard to see the front 4 making life a whole lot easier on the secondary.  The flip side is we also saw the communication problems and Del Rio switching coverage types each year.  We saw a major drop off when Harris moved on and we wound up w/ a high schools coach in charge of the secondary.  What happens if they all know their role, are played to their strengths, and cohesion is bolstered by lots of communication?  

 

Quinn and Whitt’s track record matters, but I have trouble separating them from the talent they’ve had to work with.  I guess my hope is that coaching, culture and communication, as well as our better units - backers, DTs and safeties - provide a major lift and effectively ties the front to the back.  

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

11 hours ago, skinny21 said:

Certainly fair to see it as the weakest group.  To me, it’s an enigma.  There’s some talent there (and I’m intrigued by the UDFAs), but it’s hard to have any real confidence - there’s no one you can point to as a good corner, even if I’m high on Sainristil (and Martin if he were to play in the slot).

 

I’m not expecting much, in part because of the lack of proven production and in part because we lack a dominant type of DE.  Hard to see the front 4 making life a whole lot easier on the secondary.  The flip side is we also saw the communication problems and Del Rio switching coverage types each year.  We saw a major drop off when Harris moved on and we wound up w/ a high schools coach in charge of the secondary.  What happens if they all know their role, are played to their strengths, and cohesion is bolstered by lots of communication?  

 

Quinn and Whitt’s track record matters, but I have trouble separating them from the talent they’ve had to work with.  I guess my hope is that coaching, culture and communication, as well as our better units - backers, DTs and safeties - provide a major lift and effectively ties the front to the back.  

 

I think the Front 4 could have some surprising subpackages. I'm curious about Newton/Allen/Payne plus a speedy blitzer. Stunting, hitting different gaps with big power beside them. We've got an uncharacteristic group of 3 DL where none are overwhelmingly strong or agile, but they've all got both good strength and agility.

 

I see this now and again, and I wonder why it doesn't happen more often. But sometimes good DT's lined up as DE's create real problems for the OT. They're not used to that strength. They're used to guys 50 pounds lighter.

 

Will it work reliably? I don't know. But I'm curious.

[redskinss]

Good breakdown on defenses for all you x's and o's guys and gals out there.

 

 

[Koolblue13]

50 minutes ago, redskinss said:

Good breakdown on defenses for all you x's and o's guys and gals out there.

 

 

That was great. Absolutely awesome content, once they got past the uniform stuff. Thanks for posting that.

[redskinss]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

That was great. Absolutely awesome content, once they got past the uniform stuff. Thanks for posting that.

 

Yeah the uniform stuff was dull but I love the chemistry between these 3.

The first 5 or ten minutes of these podcasts are usually non football related stuff and sometimes it's really neat to see the more personal side of players and other times it can get pretty boring but they always get into really good detail when they start talking football, it's never just media fluff and I always look forward to this podcast.

Edited July 10 by redskinss

[RandyHolt]

Lets talk ends. I think its THE weak point on our defense but I say that without knowing anything about Fowler and Armstrong. I do find solace in knowing they are Quinns Cats ® so they will know his scheme and not improvise but the realist in me says they are likely more JAGS that can eek out 10-12 sacks between them based on an aggressive scheme/reps alone. I won't sell the scheme short however, and making those guys work. Dictate Dammit. 

 

Depth chart is uninspiring (sorry Clelin KJ and Efe) and I keep circling back to Jamin's role. There is a story brewing here and think its either going to be they are molding him to be Parsons Lite or a likely cut. I am sticking to my guns, its one or the other. His fate seems also tied to Magee and a hopeful strong showing from him in camp.

 

Edited July 15 by RandyHolt

[CommanderInTheRye]

Submitted for your "it's almost time for training camp" viewing pleasure, 16 minutes of brutal mano-a-mano domination by Jon Poindexter Allen...

 

 

Dd

 

[skinny21]

On 7/7/2024 at 9:34 PM, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

I think the Front 4 could have some surprising subpackages. I'm curious about Newton/Allen/Payne plus a speedy blitzer. Stunting, hitting different gaps with big power beside them. We've got an uncharacteristic group of 3 DL where none are overwhelmingly strong or agile, but they've all got both good strength and agility.

 

I see this now and again, and I wonder why it doesn't happen more often. But sometimes good DT's lined up as DE's create real problems for the OT. They're not used to that strength. They're used to guys 50 pounds lighter.

 

Will it work reliably? I don't know. But I'm curious.

I’m intrigued by the idea of essentially a 3-4 package with either 3 DTs, or 2 DTs plus Armstrong, and then Luvu and Davis on the edges (reading the back), and Wagner in the middle.  Still gives you a nickel look on the backend.

4 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

Lets talk ends. I think its THE weak point on our defense but I say that without knowing anything about Fowler and Armstrong. I do find solace in knowing they are Quinns Cats ® so they will know his scheme and not improvise but the realist in me says they are likely more JAGS that can eek out 10-12 sacks between them based on an aggressive scheme/reps alone. I won't sell the scheme short however, and making those guys work. Dictate Dammit. 

 

Depth chart is uninspiring (sorry Clelin KJ and Efe) and I keep circling back to Jamin's role. There is a story brewing here and think its either going to be they are molding him to be Parsons Lite or a likely cut. I am sticking to my guns, its one or the other. His fate seems also tied to Magee and a hopeful strong showing from him in camp.

 

Here’s hoping one of the young guys - Henry/Jones/Jean-Baptiste - or Jamin is able to step up, at least as a situational rusher, because to your point, it’s an underwhelming group.  On the bright side, while Armstrong doesn’t have a Parsons on the other side, he’s got a good group of DTs next to him and some very capable blitzers, so hopefully he can maintain his respectable production.  I’ll add that Ferrell is a stud against the run, so he’ll have a solid role carved out for him that can/should open up others.  If we can force more longer passing downs, that could/should help our rushers a bit.  Obviously Wagner’s experience can serve as a bit of a force multiplier as well.

Overall though, I do have concerns that the combo of a somewhat questionable pass rush and corner group winds up magnifying each unit’s deficiencies.  With that said, I think the corners may benefit greatly by having a better understanding of their role, a better scheme, a better support system in terms of safety/linebacker play, and better overall communication.

[Warhead36]

I liked the little bit I saw of Henry last year. I think he's got some Preston Smith to his game.