The Guardian: Joe Biden's gender discrimination order offers hope for young trans athletes - Discussion Thread

[tshile]

25 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

 

Making it illegal for the school to tell the parents without the child’s consent is the opposite of keeping something private within the family for the family to worry about. 
 

they’re placing the school between parents and their children, over a pretty important issue. 
 

have fun defending that for the next four months.

24 minutes ago, bcl05 said:

Because some kids who are struggling with gender don't feel safe at home.  Maybe school is one place where they can feel safer?  I wish all homes were loving and supportive, but the sad reality is that they aren't.  

 

This is the basic reason why all "tell parents everything" rules (not just regarding gender) are a bad idea.  Because sometimes parents are the problem, not the solution.   

this is being pitched as banning those rules, but that’s not all it’s doing. It’s adding that consent is required to discuss it at all. 
 

enjoy pitching that dems want parents removed from important situations with their children. 
 

im sure it’ll go over real well with everyone that doesn’t wear progressive ideology on their sleeve 24/7. 

[TheGreatBuzz]

I agree with @tshile. This isn't going to sell well with less-progressive demographics. I could have understood something like teachers must check in with kids before telling parents. Add that the child can notify that they don't feel safe at home with this new information and that can trigger another issue. 

[The Evil Genius]

As someone without kids, you guys who do have them, feel free to continue to tell me I am wrong, especially about kids.. but that won't stop me for believing that far too many kids still need a safe place outside of the home to be themselves.

 

Forcing schools to tattle on little Jack or Jill because they're holding hands (or gasp..kissing) with a same sex person or because they want to be referred to as they instead of she or he doesn't seem like a good policy to me. 

 

Edit..I'll add. If you kid isn't sharing with you that they are gay, trans, asexual, etc, do you suppose that it's likely the environment at home isn't welcoming to this talk or acceptance? And schools being forced to disclose this to you helps how?

Edited July 16 by The Evil Genius
Typos

[TD_washingtonredskins]

6 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

As someone without kids, you guys who do have them, feel free to continue to tell me iIam wrong, especially about kids.. but that won't stop me for believing that far too many kids still need a safe place outside of the home to be themselves.

 

Forcing schools to tattle on little Jack or Jill because they're holding hands (or gasp..kissing) with a same sex person or because they want to be referred to as they instead of she or he doesn't seem like a good policy to me. 

 

To me it comes down to allowing a school to come between parent and child. I don't think that is natural or right. As @TheGreatBuzz mentioned, if the child expresses to a trusted teacher or coach or counselor that he or she doesn't feel safe at home, then that should trigger an entirely different set of procedures. But, short of that, the school shouldn't be wedged between family. It's only going to create bigger problems and messy situations. 

[The Evil Genius]

17 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

To me it comes down to allowing a school to come between parent and child. I don't think that is natural or right. As @TheGreatBuzz mentioned, if the child expresses to a trusted teacher or coach or counselor that he or she doesn't feel safe at home, then that should trigger an entirely different set of procedures. But, short of that, the school shouldn't be wedged between family. It's only going to create bigger problems and messy situations. 

 

Unless I am mistaken, the previous law didn't allow for a separate set of procedures. 

Edited July 16 by The Evil Genius

[Jabbyrwock]

31 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

As someone without kids, you guys who do have them, feel free to continue to tell me iIam wrong, especially about kids.. but that won't stop me for believing that far too many kids still need a safe place outside of the home to be themselves.

 

Out here we had a Youth YMCA.  Lots of activities for kids and teens at the facility, so it was a pretty attractive place for them to hang out after school.  And the administrators that ran the facility were professionals.  It was funded via the local Y and donations, so was free.  Kids just had to get parents permission.  And in that permission paperwork there was a "This is a safe space for your kids.  We're not gonna tell you anything unless its basically life threatening or criminal" clause.  I think such extracurricular places are a better safe space location than the schools.  Honestly we already ask too much of teachers on too little pay.

[The Evil Genius]

But wasn't the previous law asking a lot of those teachers as well? Having to inform school admin or parents directly? 

 

If anything,  this new law here would seem like less of a burden on schools. 

[TheGreatBuzz]

44 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

As someone without kids, you guys who do have them, feel free to continue to tell me iIam wrong, especially about kids.. but that won't stop me for believing that far too many kids still need a safe place outside of the home to be themselves.

 

Forcing schools to tattle on little Jack or Jill because they're holding hands (or gasp..kissing) with a same sex person or because they want to be referred to as they instead of she or he doesn't seem like a good policy to me. 

 

Edit..I'll add. If you kid isn't sharing with you that they are gay, Trans, asexual, etc, do you suppose that it's likely the environment at home isn't welcoming to this talk or acceptance? And schools being forced to disclose this to you helps how?

 

Yea, I should have a qualifier that I don't have kids so I don't care that much. It was just my $.02

[Jabbyrwock]

1 minute ago, The Evil Genius said:

But wasn't the previous law asking a lot of those teachers as well? Having to inform school admin or parents directly? 

 

I'm not sure what the time window on informing is, but I assume it could easily be folded into a parent teacher conference which were relatively regularly scheduled things (once a semester at least, depending on performance).

[The Evil Genius]

12 minutes ago, Jabbyrwock said:

 

I'm not sure what the time window on informing is, but I assume it could easily be folded into a parent teacher conference which were relatively regularly scheduled things (once a semester at least, depending on performance).

 

Do parents regularly attend those things now? I'm so out of touch and all I can say is that they weren't a thing in the early 1990s VA Beach school system.

 

Thankfully. 😆

[Jabbyrwock]

Just now, The Evil Genius said:

 

Do parents regularly attend those things now? I'm so out of touch and all I can say is that they weren't a thing in the early 1990s VA Beach school system.

 

Thankfully. 😆

 

Can only speak for myself and the people I know.  Yes, parents generally attended.  And the school was very good about having phone in options and such, even before Covid.

[tshile]

1 hour ago, The Evil Genius said:

Edit..I'll add. If you kid isn't sharing with you that they are gay, trans, asexual, etc, do you suppose that it's likely the environment at home isn't welcoming to this talk or acceptance? And schools being forced to disclose this to you helps how?

Got into this with a friend earlier. He has kids (not old enough to be in public school). I’ll preface this with I like you, I think you’re smart, I generally value your opinions,  and my tone isn’t directed at you specifically but at this whole notion of cutting parents out of important aspects of a child’s life. And that no - I do not like the idea of using the schools to “tattle tale” and I understands that’s exactly what some want - but there’s a bigger picture issue here. 
 

This is the most backasswards way of thinking about the parent-child relationship. I see people throw it around in different contexts and it always infuriates me. It’s akin to saying kids that develop a drug problem simply have bad parents. Or that the kid that crashed their car drinking and driving, simply had bad parents. 
 

I have a niece with two progressive parents that took a very long time to talk to them about it. My wife and I are also incredible supportive of that whole family and her situation and it took her even longer to let us into her world on the topic. 
 

I had fantastic parents growing up - yet spent many of years thinking they suck. Certainly didn’t confide in them with important stuff. It’s not because they were bad parents or not caring or didn’t offer a safe space - it was because I was a ****ing kid and kids don’t think reasonable or logically or maturely. That’s why we treat them like kids, that’s why we have the saying about being treated like a child. Sure I know some kids more mature and reasonable than many adults - but it’s not something you expect out of all of them. 
 

You don’t leave kids alone to navigate a crazy important, life altering situation on their own. You want 12 year olds learning whether they have a gender identity issue, and how to deal with it, from other 12 year olds and what they randomly find on the internet? That’s what my niece did. I’ll give you a tip: kids are uninformed and inexperienced morons, and the internet is full of wackos and idiots all over the place that appear to only be good at appearing convincing to those unable to see through their act. 
 

if a 13 year old girl was rapped and a teacher found out - should the teacher tell the parents?

 

what if they had developed a drug habit?

 

what if they were in an abusive relationship? Or being bullied?

 

where do you progressives draw the line on potentially life altering, critical situations and say nah, leave the kid to navigate it on their own?

 

how ****ing stupid. 
 

I get there are ****ty parents. I wish we didn’t have that problem. There are ways to deal with that. 
 

but what you don’t do is put the government between parents and their kids on incredibly important situations. You have no ****ing right to tell a parent they have to sit this one out in ignorance as their child takes life altering advice from other kids and whatever they find on the internet. 
 

these people have SIGNIFICANTLY higher rates of suicide, drug abuse, abusive relationships, bullying, struggling socially and academically, and having other combined mental illness problems. 
 

and your solution is to cut the parents out because there exists some % of parents out there that don’t agree with your progressive ideology on an issue that’s super new to the political discourse? How ridiculously stupid. 

Edited July 16 by tshile

[tshile]

Sorry. It infuriates me. Again - not meant to personally attack you. I think very fondly of you in many ways. I just can’t sit back in this one. 

[dfitzo53]

So, this post in no way is intended to directly address the law passed. I don't know what the right call is on that. 

 

Here's what I will say as a middle school teacher. Multiple times in my career I have had a student come to me and say, "I'd like you to call me [name] and use [pronouns], but use my original name when you talk to my parents." 

 

I've honored that request every time.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

8 minutes ago, tshile said:

Got into this with a friend earlier. He has kids (not old enough to be in public school). I’ll preface this with I like you, I think you’re smart, I generally value your opinions,  and my tone isn’t directed at you specifically but at this whole notion of cutting parents out of important aspects of a child’s life. And that no - I do not like the idea of using the schools to “tattle tale” and I understands that’s exactly what some want - but there’s a bigger picture issue here. 
 

This is the most backasswards way of thinking about the parent-child relationship. I see people throw it around in different contexts and it always infuriates me. It’s akin to saying kids that develop a drug problem simply have bad parents. Or that the kid that crashed their car drinking and driving, simply had bad parents. 
 

I have a niece with two progressive parents that took a very long time to talk to them about it. My wife and I are also incredible supportive of that whole family and her situation and it took her even longer to let us into her world on the topic. 
 

I had fantastic parents growing up - yet spent many of years thinking they suck. Certainly didn’t confide in them with important stuff. It’s not because they were bad parents or not caring or didn’t offer a safe space - it was because I was a ****ing kid and kids don’t think reasonable or logically or maturely. That’s why we treat them like kids, that’s why we have the saying about being treated like a child. Sure I know some kids more mature and reasonable than many adults - but it’s not something you expect out of all of them. 
 

You don’t leave kids alone to navigate a crazy important, life altering situation on their own. You want 12 year olds learning whether they have a gender identity issue, and how to deal with it, from other 12 year olds and what they randomly find on the internet? That’s what my niece did. I’ll give you a tip: kids are uninformed and inexperienced morons, and the internet is full of wackos and idiots all over the place that appear to only be good at appearing convincing to those unable to see through their act. 
 

if a 13 year old girl was rapped and a teacher found out - should the teacher tell the parents?

 

what if they had developed a drug habit?

 

what if they were in an abusive relationship? Or being bullied?

 

where do you progressives draw the line on potentially life altering, critical situations and say nah, leave the kid to navigate it on their own?

 

how ****ing stupid. 
 

I get there are ****ty parents. I wish we didn’t have that problem. There are ways to deal with that. 
 

but what you don’t do is put the government between parents and their kids on incredibly important situations. You have no ****ing right to tell a parent they have to sit this one out in ignorance as their child takes life altering advice from other kids and whatever they find on the internet. 
 

these people have SIGNIFICANTLY higher rates of suicide, drug abuse, abusive relationships, bullying, struggling socially and academically, and having other combined mental illness problems. 
 

and your solution is to cut the parents out because there exists some % of parents out there that don’t agree with your progressive ideology on an issue that’s super new to the political discourse? How ridiculously stupid. 

 

Great post. I had as stable an upbringing as possible...both parents in the house, an older sister who was straight as an arrow...and even I thought I had it tough. If I could find a way to choose the path of least resistance and knew there was an option to keep something from my wonderfully supportive family structure, I would have (at certain times in my life). 

 

Just because a child wants to cut his or her parents out of an important decision or topic, doesn't mean it's the right choice. Of course, there are some very serious or exceptional cases where it's appropriate (abuse, etc.). But, for the most part, it's incumbent on the "trusted school official" to offload this information to someone closer to the kid. 

[PeterMP]

5 hours ago, tshile said:

That’s not going to go over well. 
 

Taking the stance that we shouldn’t involve parents in something like that… I can’t even comprehend why that’s supposed to be a good idea. 
 

Wow. 

 

I don't think this is an accurate reflection of what has been done.  He's not banning telling parents.  He's banning requiring the telling of parents.  He's not saying that schools can't tell the parents.  He's saying you can't force the school to tell the parents.  The law is making it so the whether the parents are informed is up to the school/teacher.  Which I think is probably pretty much the way it is now and has been forever.  The law is being passed so that the status quo remains the status quo.

 

In terms of parent's meeting with teachers kids' school did a parent teacher conference where you met 1-on-1 with the teacher until junior high (which started in middle school).  And many parents went.

 

Even in high school, they do back to school night where you go to all of your kids classes.  About 1/2 the parents go.

[tshile]

@PeterMP

the way I read it, it requires the child to consent to discussing it with the parents first. 

[mcsluggo]

1 hour ago, The Evil Genius said:

As someone without kids, you guys who do have them, feel free to continue to tell me I am wrong, especially about kids.. but that won't stop me for believing that far too many kids still need a safe place outside of the home to be themselves.

 

Forcing schools to tattle on little Jack or Jill because they're holding hands (or gasp..kissing) with a same sex person or because they want to be referred to as they instead of she or he doesn't seem like a good policy to me. 

 

Edit..I'll add. If you kid isn't sharing with you that they are gay, trans, asexual, etc, do you suppose that it's likely the environment at home isn't welcoming to this talk or acceptance? And schools being forced to disclose this to you helps how?

 

 

I agree with you.  AND i agree that it is a political loser right now.    

you win wars (and even battles) by learning to choose when to hunker down, and when to storm the hill.

[PeterMP]

23 minutes ago, tshile said:

if a 13 year old girl was rapped and a teacher found out - should the teacher tell the parents?

 

what if they had developed a drug habit?

 

what if they were in an abusive relationship? Or being bullied?

 

So most of what you are talking about are illegal things.  Even being bullied normally includes some sort of assult.

 

And teachers are mandatory reporters for those sorts of things because of laws and school discipline.

 

The more relevant and comparable things would be:

Should teachers be required to tell parents if their kid is dating somebody?

Got in an argument and has quit talking to a best friend?

Stop being part of an activity (e.g. playing a sport) that they used to be part of?

Etc.

 

All of those would be signs of different issues and suggest a child at potentially at some risks.  Why aren't those things being legislatively mandated?

 

Edited July 16 by PeterMP

[mcsluggo]

i don't want teachers to be required to police social mores for potentially mouth-frothing parents.     but i want things to move slowly here, rather than accelerating an appalling backswing of the pendulum that is already underway.

[PeterMP]

5 minutes ago, tshile said:

@PeterMP

the way I read it, it requires the child to consent to discussing it with the parents first. 

 

Yes, that seems true. But that still doesn't match the way I read your initial post.

 

I'm actually against that.  I'd be for leaving the status quo on place where it is up to the teacher/school.

Edited July 16 by PeterMP

[tshile]

5 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

So most of what you are talking about are illegal things.  Even being bullied normally includes some sort of assult.

 

And teachers are mandatory reporters for those sorts of things because of laws and school discipline.

 

The more relevant and comparable things would be:

Should teachers be required to tell parents if their kid is dating somebody?

Got in an argument and has quit talking to a best friend?

Stop being part of an activity (e.g. playing a sport) that they used to be part of?

Etc.

so you think a person that is going through the early phases of a gender identity issue, is more akin to dating someone? Or stops doing a sport?

 

Come on. I know you know the stats on this, likely better than I. 
 

Suicide, drugs, abuse, other mental illness issues - transgender people suffer significantly more from all of these than any other group and it’s not even close. 
 

you want to compare it to dating someone or dropping out of a school club? Got in an argument with a best friend? It’s not even close. 

Edited July 16 by tshile

[The Evil Genius]

Here's the assembly bill (AB 1955) fwiw. 

 

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=202320240AB1955

 

It appears to confirm what Peter said, that it can't be a requirement of schools. 

 

The main text says,

 

Quote

This bill would prohibit school districts, county offices of education, charter schools, and the state special schools, and a member of the governing board or body of those educational entities, from enacting or enforcing any policy, rule, or administrative regulation that requires an employee or a contractor to disclose any information related to a pupil’s sexual orientation, gender identity, or gender expression to any other person without the pupil’s consent unless otherwise required by law, as provided. The bill would prohibit employees or contractors of those educational entities from being required to make such a disclosure unless otherwise required by law, as provided. The bill would prohibit employees or contractors of school districts, county offices of education, charter schools, or the state special schools, or members of the governing boards or bodies of those educational entities, from retaliating or taking adverse action against an employee on the basis that the employee supported a pupil in the exercise of specified rights, work activities, or providing certain instruction, as provided.

 

Edited July 16 by The Evil Genius

[PeterMP]

1 minute ago, tshile said:

so you think a person that is going through the early phases of a gender identity issue, is more akin to dating someone? Or stops doing a sport?

 

Come on. I know you know the stats on this, likely better than I. 
 

Suicide, drugs, abuse, other mental illness issues - transgender people suffer significantly more from all of these than any other group and it’s not even close. 
 

you want to compare it to dating someone or dropping out of a school club? Got in an argument with a best friend? It’s not even close. 

 

Again, all the other things you listed include actual illegal behavior.    Somebody that is transgender isn't more likely to abuse drugs than somebody that actually has a drug habit.

 

How about pregnancy?  

 

I don't think there is any law on the books requiring schools to inform parents if their kid is pregnant.  Have an STD.  Etc.

[tshile]

By the way - what caused things to

come to head with my niece was her slashing her arm apart trying to kill herself. 
 

She has incredibly supporting family around her. 
 

But that’s how that got found out. 
 

you people think kids should be left to navigate this on your own are ****ing nuts 

5 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

Again, all the other things you listed include actual illegal behavior.    Somebody that is transgender isn't more likely to abuse drugs than somebody that actually has a drug habit.

 

How about pregnancy?  

 

I don't think there is any law on the books requiring schools to inform parents if their kid is pregnant.  Have an STD.  Etc.

I can’t follow what you’re saying d about the drug abuse. They’re not more likely to abuse drugs than a person already abusing drugs?

 

pregnancy and std - yes. STDs can cause severe problems if not treated. Pregnancy, well, duh. Not sure how that ends without the parents knowing anyways and we know that it’s really important to do certain things during pregnancy and I’m not sure it’s reasonable to expect a 15 year old to know and do it all. 

Edited July 16 by tshile