Pay the Man!!

[MonkFan8]

1 minute ago, dckey said:

We're spending that much on Alex Smith!!!!   The money saved on cutting Smith is 14mil.  We can sign Stafford and multiple FA. And we also have 2 3rd rounders.  So we're a couple of pieces away, but done correctly it could be in the next year or 2.

Are you suggesting the Lions are going to cut Stafford or am I missing something? We aren't getting a guy like Stafford or Watson (and even guys like Mariota) without giving up assets. 

[CapsSkins]

3 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I just want to add to this that he wasn't just doing what you point out, but against a top defense. I give him more credit than Kyle Allen because Allen played scrub teams and his one win came against Dallas who was historically bad. But Heinicke was avoiding the rush and running for first downs or finding the open guy, throwing catchable balls, and leading this team. 

 

Exactly! This is why I feel like some people just say stuff reflexively without thinking about it. "It's just 5 quarters" well yeah because we literally didn't give him any more playing time. "It might not be sustainable" what on tape makes the play style unsustainable? "Defenses will figure him out" how does a defense "figure out" a guy reading the field, making quick decisions and using his feet? "He could be the backup" why not the starter when he's played better than any quarterback we've had potentially honestly since like Brunell? "If you have a chance to get someone like Stafford you have to do it" why not use the picks and cap space on weapons and see if Heinicke can handle it w/ a cheap vet behind him instead?

 

The one critique I agree with and has me worried is durability.  But again, he can work on that IMO. Being smarter about when and how you run can help. And especially not being so desperate to make plays just to survive in the league. Give Taylor a running game, WR weapons and playing time and let's see how far he can take us. If he doesn't show he can handle it next year, you have 2022 to make a splash at QB when you're a more complete team and a more desirable destination.

[dckey]

2 minutes ago, MonkFan8 said:

Are you suggesting the Lions are going to cut Stafford or am I missing something? We aren't getting a guy like Stafford or Watson (and even guys like Mariota) without giving up assets. 

No even in a trade he's only going to cost the new team the remainder of his contract.  Detroit is still on the hook for $19mil.  This is all if Detroit's new regime wants to rebuild and go in a different way.  Rumors are Stafford may want out and could possibly cost a 2nd and 4th rounder. Maybe a extra pick next year.

[Thinking Skins]

10 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

The way Heinecke played last night, would make him a quality #1 QB. But can he do it over a 16 game season? And then again and again and again? The history of the league is filled with guys like Heinecke who light it up for one game and then get figured out. That's why I'd advise caution.

 

Bring him back, let him compete for a starting job sure, but don't fall in love, is all I'm saying. I could easily see him regressing into mediocrity or worse next year with actual expectations on him.

The problem with this line of thinking is that it goes against what the FO has been preaching about the guys they brought in in 2020. KPL, Thomas, JMC, Lucas, Wes etc were all guys who they thought had more talent than we were seeing on film and could be gotten at bargain prices. If we wait for Heinicke to play that way for 16 games then we lose the leverage we have right now. We signed Darby for a 1 year 4 million dollar deal and he was a steal compared to what others got including Fuller (who was also a steal, but less of one). Thing was Darby was known to bite on double moves and couldn't stay healthy. So they improved his technique and he stayed healthy so we won that contract (unfortunately its a 1 year deal so he's about to get paid). 

 

Right now we have the leverage and could offer him a lot of low ball contracts up to a Matt Flynn type deal (probably passing it some since time has passed) and can lock him up for some time. If it doesn't work out its nowhere near as bad as Smith not working out for us hurt us, or as Cousins not working out for Minnesota has hurt them. 

[CapsSkins]

Negotiating $$ is different than evaluating the player. Heinicke can be had for VERY cheap because he knows hs biggest champion is Scott Turner, this is the offense he knows inside and out, and therefore this is where he'll be most likely to get the fullest opportunity - one that he knows will be critical to determining his future in this League. 

 

I'd sign Heinicke to a 3 year deal at $750K-$1M per year. He'll take it because he won't have better offers in better situations.

[Commander -JB-]

33 minutes ago, dckey said:

We're spending that much on Alex Smith!!!!   The money saved on cutting Smith is 14mil.  We can sign Stafford and multiple FA. And we also have 2 3rd rounders.  So we're a couple of pieces away, but done correctly it could be in the next year or 2.

Answer me this one question.  If Haskins played the way Heinicke played last night in a playoff game would you call him the future?  Don’t lie.

[dckey]

2 minutes ago, -JB- said:

Answer me this one question.  If Haskins played the way Heinicke played last night in a playoff game would you call him the future?  Don’t lie.

Not after 1 game, if he played like this against Phi game 1 and then played like he did the rest of the season, I still would have cut him.  How do you know he's going to play like this next game?  He has 2 starts in his career last night and another where he was bad.

[Commander -JB-]

3 minutes ago, dckey said:

Not after 1 game, if he played like this against Phi game 1 and then played like he did the rest of the season, I still would have cut him.  How do you know he's going to play like this next game?  He has 2 starts in his career last night and another where he was bad.

You wouldn’t cut Haskins if he played like Heinicke did last night because he was a first round pick.  Stop lying to yourself.  Again I ask if Haskins played like Heinicke did last night would you say he’s the future?  Of course you would.  So what’s the difference??

[dckey]

Just now, -JB- said:

You wouldn’t cut Haskins if he played like Heinicke did last night because he was a first round pick.  Stop lying to yourself.  Again I ask if Haskins played like Heinicke did last night would you say he’s the future?  Of course you would.  So what’s the difference??

So if Haskins was still on the team and not Heinicke and had to play last night and had the same game, you would forget about all those terrible games and say he's our future????  You wouldn't even consider a new qb????   I'm sorry that you've been so accustomed to terrible QB play that 1 game can change your mind on how good or bad a player is 🥺🥺🥺

[CapsSkins]

Man Haskins played awful in September and people in the national media called Ron racist for benching him. Meanwhile Taylor balls out like we haven't seen from the QB position in years or honestly maybe even over a decade and we got people in threads saying they think he's a "C player". Lmao

[Warhead36]

8 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

Man Haskins played awful in September and people in the national media called Ron racist for benching him. Meanwhile Taylor balls out like we haven't seen from the QB position in years or honestly maybe even over a decade and we got people in threads saying they think he's a "C player". Lmao

Again with the strawman argument. Nobody is hating on Heinecke or saying he's a "C player" whatever that means. We're just advising caution against anointing someone too early.

 

Give him an opportunity to compete for a starting job next year.

[CapsSkins]

5 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Again with the strawman argument. Nobody is hating on Heinecke or saying he's a "C player" whatever that means. We're just advising caution against anointing someone too early.

 

Give him an opportunity to compete for a starting job next year.

 

fwo40 literally called him a C player and there are indeed people writing him off. If it doesn't apply to you, then great - we are in agreement. But that sentiment is indeed prevalent in the fan base. Still lots of people wanting to trade for Stafford or Ryan, or wanting to move up in the draft.

 

[Kurd Cudins]

28 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

Negotiating $$ is different than evaluating the player. Heinicke can be had for VERY cheap because he knows hs biggest champion is Scott Turner, this is the offense he knows inside and out, and therefore this is where he'll be most likely to get the fullest opportunity - one that he knows will be critical to determining his future in this League. 

 

I'd sign Heinicke to a 3 year deal at $750K-$1M per year. He'll take it because he won't have better offers in better situations.

Veteran minimums are going up. He was playing on a prorated $910k contract. Your numbers are not realistic.

[CapsSkins]

1 minute ago, Kurd Cudins said:

Veteran minimums are going up. He was playing on a prorated $910k contract. Your numbers are not realistic.

 

Okay whatever the updated low number is. 3 years at 1M. or 3 years at 2M. Whatever it is. Point is, the price tag is low. (which makes the upside that much higher)

 

[Redwolves92]

I think if we cant get watson if he becomes available then id still be very happy with Taylor. He has shown more than any qb ive seen on this team for years.  His mobility and elusiveness was amazing. If he remains in the system and is given better pieces on offense i think he can be great for us.  Im not worried about lack of arm strength, i think that quality is overrated (see dwayne haskins). How often are deep balls even completed? He aired it out further and way more than any qb on this roster did and was on the money. The guy plays to win and isnt interested in just checking down. That is a quality we must have in a qb. Sign him for cheap and go all in on Allen Robinson. 

[dckey]

5 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

fwo40 literally called him a C player and there are indeed people writing him off. If it doesn't apply to you, then great - we are in agreement. But that sentiment is indeed prevalent in the fan base. Still lots of people wanting to trade for Stafford or Ryan, or wanting to move up in the draft.

 

If you could get Stafford for a 2nd and 4th and he only counts 20mil against the cap, you would rather not sign him and just roll with Heinicke?????  

[CapsSkins]

1 minute ago, dckey said:

If you could get Stafford for a 2nd and 4th and he only counts 20mil against the cap, you would rather not sign him and just roll with Heinicke?????  

 

Yes because the tradeoff is not just Stafford vs. Heinicke, the tradeoff is: Stafford vs. Heinicke AND Allen Robinson AND a 2nd and 4th, which could be two rookies or ammo to trade up in the 1st, or get a different player, etc. etc. 

[Commander -JB-]

8 minutes ago, dckey said:

If you could get Stafford for a 2nd and 4th and he only counts 20mil against the cap, you would rather not sign him and just roll with Heinicke?????  

We got McLaurin, Gibson, Moses, Holcomb, Ioannidis, Curl, Rouiller, all in rounds 3-7.  Why give up valuable draft capital when you don’t have to?  Have we learned nothing after 30 years of mismanagement???

[dckey]

7 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

Yes because the tradeoff is not just Stafford vs. Heinicke, the tradeoff is: Stafford vs. Heinicke AND Allen Robinson AND a 2nd and 4th, which could be two rookies or ammo to trade up in the 1st, or get a different player, etc. etc. 

I can see this logic if that were the case, but you could get Allen Robinson, Stafford and your 1st, 2 3rds and more FA.  We are possibly going to have over 60mil in Cap Space by Cutting Alex

1 minute ago, -JB- said:

We got McLaurin, Gibson, Moses, Holcomb, Ioannidis, Curl, Rouiller, all in rounds 3-7.  Why give up valuable draft capital when you don’t have to?  Have we learned nothing after 30 years of mismanagement???

This is mismanagement, we haven't done nothing with our 2nd rounders.  So according to your logic, that 4th rounder and keeping 20mil out of 60mil in Cap Space is better than Stafford 🤨🤨🤨

[CapsSkins]

5 minutes ago, dckey said:

I can see this logic if that were the case, but you could get Allen Robinson, Stafford and your 1st, 2 3rds and more FA.  We are possibly going to have over 60mil in Cap Space by Cutting Alex

This is mismanagement, we haven't done nothing with our 2nd rounders.  So according to your logic, that 4th rounder and keeping 20mil out of 60mil in Cap Space is better than Stafford 🤨🤨🤨

 

The point is Stafford costs trade assets & cap space. So it's not a one to one comparison of Heinicke vs. Stafford. It's Heinicke PLUS  however you use an incremental $20M and an incremental few mid-high draft picks vs. just Stafford. And I'd rather do the former.

[Commander -JB-]

9 minutes ago, dckey said:

I can see this logic if that were the case, but you could get Allen Robinson, Stafford and your 1st, 2 3rds and more FA.  We are possibly going to have over 60mil in Cap Space by Cutting Alex

This is mismanagement, we haven't done nothing with our 2nd rounders.  So according to your logic, that 4th rounder and keeping 20mil out of 60mil in Cap Space is better than Stafford 🤨🤨🤨

Well, 2nd rounders have been a problem over the years but this new regime hasn’t had a chance yet to draft a second rounder since they gave up back to back 2nds to move up to get Montez Sweat which actually was a good move!  Well, actually should have just drafted him 15th instead of Haskins but that’s neither here nor there! 
 

Do you even remember the last time there was a trade for a 32+ year old QB I think his name was McNabb,?? How’d that work out??

[dckey]

1 minute ago, CapsSkins said:

 

The point is Stafford costs trade assets & cap space. So it's not a one to one comparison of Heinicke vs. Stafford. It's Heinicke PLUS  however you use an incremental $20M and an incremental few mid-high draft picks vs. just Stafford. And I'd rather do the former.

Ok agree to disagree, and it's not that I don't like Heinicke.  I just haven't seen enough to come to that conclusion.  If it happens I hope y'all are right.

[CapsSkins]

Just now, dckey said:

Ok agree to disagree, and it's not that I don't like Heinicke.  I just haven't seen enough to come to that conclusion.  If it happens I hope y'all are right.

 

Sure, we can disagree and that's fine. I get the logic on pursuing Stafford. Before Heinicke played, I was one of the most vocal proponents of trading for him. So I understand the thesis.

[Commander -JB-]

1 hour ago, dckey said:

So if Haskins was still on the team and not Heinicke and had to play last night and had the same game, you would forget about all those terrible games and say he's our future????  You wouldn't even consider a new qb????   I'm sorry that you've been so accustomed to terrible QB play that 1 game can change your mind on how good or bad a player is 🥺🥺🥺

Heinicke doesn’t have any terrible games to go by with this offense so what are you talking about?  I’m 40 years old and remember watching the 1987 SB in person & rooting for Doug Williams.  I know all about rooting for a guy nobody expected to win.  Its in my DNA.

[dckey]

5 minutes ago, -JB- said:

Heinicke doesn’t have any terrible games to go by with this offense so what are you talking about?  I’m 40 years old and remember watching the 1987 SB in person & rooting for Doug Williams.  I know all about rooting for a guy nobody expected to win.  Its in my DNA.

And I'm 46 and remember all those Superbowls, Greatest Superbowl Ever.  I grew up around RFK.  But you asked me if that was Haskins would I say he's the qb of the future and my answer is Hell No.  I'm not anointing nobody with 1 good game and a bunch of Bad games.