Heinicke Hive: The LEGEND of Taylor Heinicke Thread

[Califan007 The Constipated]

1 hour ago, skinsfan93 said:

I agree the team likes Heinicke but every team will come to the defense of their qb. 

 

 

Umm...yeah 😐

 

 

 

[CapsSkins]

Just now, mistertim said:

 

That's fine, we disagree. I think it's very unlikely they extend him this offseason. They have plenty of other guys to pay with extensions coming up.

 

If they truly think his ceiling is a mid tier QB then there's no much reason to overpay him or extend him at the moment, because it means he's not really far off from his ceiling now. If he becomes a FA he'd probably get interest, but nobody is going to open a bank vault for him.

 

If anything, they should be rushing to preemptively re-up McLaurin. He's basically the only superstar level dude on this team so I'd rather try to get that taken care of sooner rather than later.

 

McLaurin, Payne, McKissic, Leno, Carter, Humphries, RSJ, and Heinicke are all guys I'd look to extend this offseason at price tags commensurate with their value.

[Warhead36]

I give McLaurin a check the second the off season begins when he's eligible for extension. Don't even let him come close to sniffing FA.

[TChaler70]

12 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Literally nobody is saying it's easy to find an elite franchise QB. Quite the opposite. We all know it's hard. What we're saying is that shouldn't mean you stop trying. You keep going until you find your guy. Some teams just get ****ing lucky.

 

The Packers have had a HoF QB under center for literally 30 years. Colts went from Manning to Luck. Luck didn't end up being a HoF type QB but he was very good. Chiefs rolled the dice on a guy with high upside in Mahomes while they had a decent QB in Alex Smith who they had just gone to the playoffs with and it paid off huge. Some teams hit, some miss. But that doesn't mean you stop trying and just be content with mediocrity.

 

The one max SB thing is purely a statistical artifact based on past middle tier QBs who have made it to the big game. They get there once and that's it. It's not a situation where I'm saying "Oh, he'll only get us to one SB so he's no good and we shouldn't keep him." I think it's incredibly unlikely he'll ever get to a SB, but as a middle tier QB, history says if he does, it will only be once.

The problem is you dont factor in the pitfalls of constantly trying to find a franchise QB if you have a good middle of the road QB which plenty have one superbowls and had many good seasons. You give up draft capital, cap, winning seasons, wasted games verifying whether the guy is going to get better.  Your constantly rolling the dice on a qb. 

 

I mean you mention Luck as a franchise qb and he didnt do squat as far as a SB.

 

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by TChaler70

[mistertim]

7 minutes ago, TChaler70 said:

The problem is you dont factor in the pitfalls of constantly trying to find a franchise QB if you have a good middle of the road QB which plenty have one superbowls and had many good seasons. You give up draft capital, cap, winning seasons, wasted games verifying whether the guy is going to get better.  Your constantly rolling the dice on a qb. 

 

I mean you mention Luck as a franchise qb and he didnt do squat as far as a SB.

 

For every middle tier QB that's won a SB there are god knows how many who never sniffed it.

 

I just think mediocrity is pointless. Either keep going for being elite or don't do it at all. Maybe it's just a personality difference.

Edited December 6, 2021 by mistertim

[Die Hard]

15 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

For every middle tier QB that's won a SB there are god knows how many who never sniffed it.

 

I just think mediocrity is pointless. Either keep going for being elite or don't do it at all. Maybe it's just a personality difference.

Except nobody seems to know the makings of an elite QB (or any other position for that matter). Not with any consistency anyways. 
 

And I’m sure the statistics would bear out that they’re unicorns. That’s why Manning, Brady, Rosthlisberger, Brees, Rivers can play for 20 years.

 

But if you can’t draft one….. you can develop one. Teams don’t seem to emphasize that any longer.

[wit33]

I’m hopeful a new QB “money model” of not over paying the average starting QB that’s comparable money to an elite guy when they experience team/individual success in a season. Teams feeling pressured to over pay for competency and professionalism, especially after a successful season has shown to be crippling in many instances. The competent QBs contract should be one that the FO and fans feel is of great value. These guys should be recycled out if they ask for too much. Continue to build a strong team around while attempting to find competence and hope to hit on an elite guy in the draft. 
 

For example, I support Taylor coming back next year and beating out a rookie/veteran, but a large part of his value for me is his contract. If he and his reps decided there was a market for him after next season at %10 of the cap (would be shocked and very unlike), I’m completely out and ready to insert a Kyle Allen type to compete with a 1st round pick. 

Be extremely frugal with the QB spot if you don’t have an elite guy… end of story. 

 

 

 

 

[PartyPosse]

Just now, wit33 said:

I’m hopeful a new QB “money model” of not over paying the average starting QB that’s comparable money to an elite guy when they experience team/individual success in a season. Teams feeling pressured to over pay for competency and professionalism, especially after a successful season has shown to be crippling in many instances. The competent QBs contract should be one that the FO and fans feel is of great value. These guys should be recycled out if they ask for too much. Continue to build a strong team around while attempting to find competence and hope to hit on an elite guy in the draft. 
 

For example, I support Taylor coming back next year and beating out a rookie/veteran, but a large part of his value for me is his contract. If he and his reps decided there was a market for him after next season at %10 of the cap (would be shocked and very unlike), I’m completely out and ready to insert a Kyle Allen type to compete with a 1st round pick. 

Be extremely frugal with the QB spot if you don’t have an elite guy… end of story. 

 

 

 

 

That's a tough sell when you're trying to get guys to sign extensions. If you're Terry, you form a bond with Taylor and they don't bring him back (highly unlikely), what's his incentive to dedicate his prime to a team counting on a Kyle Allen type? 

[dunfer]

I think people are getting pre free agency qbs twisted with brady. A bunch of playoffs appearances is all you are shooting for....and the stars align for a super bowl win. Thing about Taylor is if he is one of those middling guys, hes cheap in QB money. Buy some LBs.....some WRs ...a TE... a safety

[wit33]

52 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

That's a tough sell when you're trying to get guys to sign extensions. If you're Terry, you form a bond with Taylor and they don't bring him back (highly unlikely), what's his incentive to dedicate his prime to a team counting on a Kyle Allen type? 

The 1st contract post rookie deal is too valuable to not resign with their original franchise. This contract is about maximizing your money. Terry isn’t going anywhere, he’ll be paid top 5-10 WR money and continue to be featured in an offense that has helped position him to secure generational wealth. 
 

Those guaranteed dollars cannot be turned downed following a 3rd round rookie contract. The guarantees I imagine will exceed 50-60mil or so, right? Doesn’t matter who the QB, you sign that deal. It’s business first, especially that first post rookie deal. As you get older and become financially secure some may explore legacy enhancing options. Not saying there aren’t outliers, but bad franchises resign their guys all the time, even ones with no QB. 
 

I agree though, ideally you want to keep guys together and that has tremendous value for teams. Just tired of the same model of over paying for average, then that guy getting recycled out eventually. Part of their value must be financial for it to be of value to the team. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by wit33

[ILikeBilly]

Can anyone find an over head replay of Taylor's int?  To me it looks like Terry was coming open to the middle of the field and may have had room to run.  At the least, he would have been down to the 30.  We could have run out the clock.  Hoping to see that replay from a better angle.

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, Die Hard said:

Except nobody seems to know the makings of an elite QB (or any other position for that matter). Not with any consistency anyways. 
 

And I’m sure the statistics would bear out that they’re unicorns. That’s why Manning, Brady, Rosthlisberger, Brees, Rivers can play for 20 years.

 

But if you can’t draft one….. you can develop one. Teams don’t seem to emphasize that any longer.

 

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. What elite QB has been developed by a team that didn't draft him? Brees maybe, but that's because they replaced him with what they thought was an upgrade at the time and Brees had just injured his throwing shoulder.

[dunfer]

6 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. What elite QB has been developed by a team that didn't draft him? Brees maybe, but that's because they replaced him with what they thought was an upgrade at the time and Brees had just injured his throwing shoulder.

Eli was drafted by the chargers....Im not calling him elite but he did win two Bowls and according to the definition, thats leet

[Thinking Skins]

 

 

[Die Hard]

41 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. What elite QB has been developed by a team that didn't draft him? Brees maybe, but that's because they replaced him with what they thought was an upgrade at the time and Brees had just injured his throwing shoulder.

Sorry. I can see how I could have been misunderstood.

 

I suppose I implied a blue-chip can’t-miss prospect at the top of the draft. And a player who shows out in his rookie season.
 

 

[CapsSkins]

31 minutes ago, dunfer said:

Eli was drafted by the chargers....Im not calling him elite but he did win two Bowls and according to the definition, thats leet

 

Y'know, statistically Heinicke's season is on pace to look a lot like Eli-level numbers... 😉

[PartyPosse]

1 minute ago, CapsSkins said:

 

Y'know, statistically Heinicke's season is on pace to look a lot like Eli-level numbers... 😉

if Eli didn’t get hot on those two playoff runs he’s easily be considered a disappointment. In fact he wasn’t even much in the first run, taking a backseat to the defense. 

[mistertim]

5 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

Y'know, statistically Heinicke's season is on pace to look a lot like Eli-level numbers... 😉

 

Eli is a super odd duck though. During the regular season he was rarely playing at a truly elite level, but he was somehow pretty much always on and clutch during the playoffs and SBs. But yeah, I never truly saw Eli as an elite QB. He was good, but more of a top 10-ish guy than top 5 or top 3.

[dunfer]

7 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

if Eli didn’t get hot on those two playoff runs he’s easily be considered a disappointment. In fact he wasn’t even much in the first run, taking a backseat to the defense. 

he was a number 1 draft pick, so yeah

[CapsSkins]

2 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Eli is a super odd duck though. During the regular season he was rarely playing at a truly elite level, but he was somehow pretty much always on and clutch during the playoffs and SBs. But yeah, I never truly saw Eli as an elite QB. He was good, but more of a top 10-ish guy than top 5 or top 3.

 

Yup, but that's why I think the comparison to Heinicke is very intriguing. Obviously they're not similar in terms of skillsets considering Eli was 6' 5" and stationary. But they're kinda similar in that they aren't these elite true franchise guys, but somehow they have that x-factor that's hard to quantify but very palpable in the biggest moments. And while you might say Eli was nonetheless appreciably better, statistically Heinicke is putting up a very Eli-like season passing-wise and is far more productive rushing obviously. So the question becomes, if you view Heinicke as Eli-caliber, then you've answered your question as to whether he's a guy you can win with. 

[Thinking Skins]

 

[mistertim]

8 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

Yup, but that's why I think the comparison to Heinicke is very intriguing. Obviously they're not similar in terms of skillsets considering Eli was 6' 5" and stationary. But they're kinda similar in that they aren't these elite true franchise guys, but somehow they have that x-factor that's hard to quantify but very palpable in the biggest moments. And while you might say Eli was nonetheless appreciably better, statistically Heinicke is putting up a very Eli-like season passing-wise and is far more productive rushing obviously. So the question becomes, if you view Heinicke as Eli-caliber, then you've answered your question as to whether he's a guy you can win with. 

 

I think I'll wait until Heinicke wins some playoff games before even starting to think about comparing him to Eli. He's also putting up similar numbers to tons of other QBs who did nothing. Eli isn't as good as his brother, but he's still probably a HoFer.

[Stone Cold]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. What elite QB has been developed by a team that didn't draft him? Brees maybe, but that's because they replaced him with what they thought was an upgrade at the time and Brees had just injured his throwing shoulder.

Steve Young…Brett Favre?

Edited December 7, 2021 by Stone Cold

[mistertim]

9 minutes ago, Stone Cold said:

Steve Young…Brett Favre?

 

Yeah those are fair. Though with Favre he went to a team where the coach didn't want him so that was pretty much doomed from the start. Young is another odd duck. He didn't truly become great until his 30s. Can't think of another guy who was that late of a bloomer. Though that was also in the 80s and early 90s and football was really different then.

[PartyPosse]

31 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Eli is a super odd duck though. During the regular season he was rarely playing at a truly elite level, but he was somehow pretty much always on and clutch during the playoffs and SBs. But yeah, I never truly saw Eli as an elite QB. He was good, but more of a top 10-ish guy than top 5 or top 3.

That is absolutely not true regarding his playoffs. Outside of one playoff run he was pretty meh. The other superbowl run he was more a game manager behind that defense and the other 4 appearances he went 0-4 and had a TD/INT ratio of 3/7