Summer of 2020---The Civil Unrest Thread--Read OP Before Posting (in memory of George Floyd)

[steve09ru]

4 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

Aside from the drone video everything else is merely Kyle’s account and interpretation of what he believes happened or may happen. Was he being chased? Yes. Irrefutable. 

But it’s not, there’s witness accounts and video that shows it wasn’t merely just rosenbaum throwing a bag at him.  A lot of this was visible before trial and came out during.

[PartyPosse]

1 minute ago, steve09ru said:

But it’s not, there’s witness accounts and video that shows it wasn’t merely just rosenbaum throwing a bag at him.  A lot of this was visible before trial and came out during.

And some have claimed they feared what he would do. Would being aggressive towards him not also be seen as self-defense? Accounts were Kyle aimed his gun at people and created fear. I’d probably do the same in that situation.

 

Like I said, everything Kyle did that night was irresponsible. He put himself in a position he thought he’d be able to handle with no actual training and panicked. Self-defense or not the situation escalated because of his actions.

[tshile]

From CNN live updates stream:

Quote

Jurors in the trial of Kyle Rittenhouse have asked the judge for extra copies of the jury instructions, specifically pages 1 through 6.

 

In this case, attorneys from both sides did arrive, until the clerk learned the simplicity of the question, according to the courtroom pool reporter. The matter was not seen on courtroom pool cameras.

 

The jury was provided 11 additional copies, according to the courtroom pool reporter.  

 

Pages 2 through 3 of the jury instructions focus on the self-defense and provocation instructions. Page 4 of the jury instructions focuses on crimes requiring intent to kill. Pages 5 and 6 focus on the first count of first-degree reckless homicide for the fatal shooting of Joseph Rosenbaum.

makes complete sense. I personally think self defense is a tricky claim and it seems obvious to me many people have many different interpretations (and states have different rules)

[Cooked Crack]

 

[The Evil Genius]

6 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

kind of seems like you and some others have selected the facts you want, and decided to discard the rest. 

 

Not really. I just don't see looting as justification for going to shoot someone. Especially for 17yo white nationalist wannabes who fantasize about it. 

 

But that's A'murica. We shoot anyone and everyone first..especially if they come after us while we're armed. 

 

 

[tshile]

3 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

And some have claimed they feared what he would do. Would being aggressive towards him not also be seen as self-defense? Accounts were Kyle aimed his gun at people and created fear. I’d probably do the same in that situation.

who’s  accounts are these?

Edited November 16, 2021 by tshile

[Spearfeather]

3 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

Self-defense or not the situation escalated because of his actions.

 

Anyone else there escalate the situation ?

[tshile]

Re: drawing from a raffle drum

 

um. Weird. Not sure it matters. But weird… In so many ways…

Edited November 16, 2021 by tshile

[steve09ru]

3 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

And some have claimed they feared what he would do. Would being aggressive towards him not also be seen as self-defense? Accounts were Kyle aimed his gun at people and created fear. I’d probably do the same in that situation.

 

Like I said, everything Kyle did that night was irresponsible. He put himself in a position he thought he’d be able to handle with no actual training and panicked. Self-defense or not the situation escalated because of his actions.

It’s not self defense if he wasn’t the aggressor.  Fear of what someone might do without an altercation compared to fear with someone who is chasing you and being an aggressor.  

[tshile]

1 minute ago, Spearfeather said:

 

Anyone else there escalate the situation ?

Oh you’re missing the part where we only pay attention to certain aspects of the case. 
 

the ones that fit our desired narrative. 

[steve09ru]

5 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

And some have claimed they feared what he would do. Would being aggressive towards him not also be seen as self-defense? Accounts were Kyle aimed his gun at people and created fear. I’d probably do the same in that situation.

 

Like I said, everything Kyle did that night was irresponsible. He put himself in a position he thought he’d be able to handle with no actual training and panicked. Self-defense or not the situation escalated because of his actions.

And what actions of his were aggressive besides him being present and armed?  Was it carrying a fire extinguisher to put out a fire or the running away part?

[Spearfeather]

Deleted.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Spearfeather

[tshile]

6 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

He put himself in a position he thought he’d be able to handle with no actual training and panicked.

Say what you want about his self defense claim. 
 

but he handled himself quite well. I would have put money in him being dead in that situation. 
 

if I were in that situation I would have only hoped I handled it that well. 

id love you see how you’d do with a mob chasing you, getting kicked/stomped in the head, hit with a skateboard, handgun involved, etc. he even stopped short of killing potential victim number 4 when he put his hands up after closing in to harm him. 
 

im not aware of a person that has actual experience with guns, that thinks differently about it (without some sort of specialized training e.g. military or swat or something)

 

he certainly didn’t panic. If he did we’d have a lot more dead people, people that didn’t physically attack him. And a much bigger and nastier mess 

 

[The Evil Genius]

4 minutes ago, steve09ru said:

And what actions of his were aggressive besides him being present and armed?  Was it carrying a fire extinguisher to put out a fire or the running away part?

 

How did we get to the point that a kid standing with an assault rifle isn't aggressive enough?

 

That's not on you steve..just a thought out loud for me. 

[PartyPosse]

4 minutes ago, steve09ru said:

And what actions of his were aggressive besides him being present and armed?  Was it carrying a fire extinguisher to put out a fire or the running away part?

Who knows? You’re honestly believing he was down there, keeping his head down with his Ar-15 loaded with FMJ bullets not saying a weird nor flexing his muscles? That’s totally in line with everything else he’s ever shown to do. Again, My arguments have nothing to do with his trial. As I’ve said many times here, he’ll get off. Do I think he deserves to? No chance in hell.

3 minutes ago, tshile said:

but he handled himself quite well. I would have put money in him being dead in that situation. 

Kyle probably wishes you were on the jury. He may have been dead. Oh, wait, did anyone else get shot or killed that night? I mean since that bloodthirsty crowd was intent on killing, i would assume many other people died, right?

[tshile]

2 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

 

How did we get to the point that a kid standing with an assault rifle isn't aggressive enough?

 

That's not on you steve..just a thought out loud for me. 

The government deciding to let people run riots in the street, destroying buildings and businesses, and not doing anything about it. 
 

People demanded the police back off. 
 

they did. So other people filled in the gap. 
 

It’s an expected outcome. People are not going to sit by and watch things be destroyed when the government decides to sit on the sidelines. They just aren’t. And if you thought otherwise then you’ve got an awareness issue. It’s just the way it is, right or wrong.

[PartyPosse]

6 minutes ago, tshile said:

he certainly didn’t panic.

This may be the most asinine thing I’ve read.

[steve09ru]

3 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

Who knows? You’re honestly believing he was down there, keeping his head down with his Ar-15 loaded with FMJ bullets not saying a weird nor flexing his muscles? That’s totally in line with everything else he’s ever shown to do. Again, My arguments have nothing to do with his trial. As I’ve said many times here, he’ll get off. Do I think he deserves to? No chance in hell.

I’m believing the facts of the case and witness testimony.  No one has come out and said he was aggressive.  It’s actually been the opposite 

[The Evil Genius]

5 minutes ago, tshile said:

The government deciding to let people run riots in the street, destroying buildings and businesses, and not doing anything about it. 
 

People demanded the police back off. 
 

they did. So other people filled in the gap. 
 

It’s an expected outcome. People are not going to sit by and watch things be destroyed when the government decides to sit on the sidelines. They just aren’t. And if you thought otherwise then you’ve got an awareness issue. It’s just the way it is, right or wrong.

 

With all due respect, that's also the predictable fantasy of 2A people who think they'll protect themselves from the government (military). 

 

It's cool in the comics and in Hollywood, but I suspect we are better off without vigilantes. 

Edited November 16, 2021 by The Evil Genius

[Captain Wiggles]

1 minute ago, tshile said:

 

People demanded the police back off. 
 

 

That's a bit over an oversimplification tho. Most sensible people were demanding accountability and responsible policing. Police unions response to that in certain places seemingly was to say hey don't bother doing your jobs as cops anymore. 

 

Pfft I don't even really see traffic stops here in NC anymore. Cops basically took their balls and went home butthurt. 🤭

[tshile]

6 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

This may be the most asinine thing I’ve read.

well. First it just appears you have no idea what you’re talking about. 
 

but second, I wound say admitting to cherry picking facts and then sticking to that as some sort of justified way of evaluating things is the most asinine thing I’ve read in the thread. 
 

That’s quite literally the dumbest way to go about evaluating anything in life, yet here you are bragging about it and sticking to it 🤷‍♂️ 

[PartyPosse]

Just now, tshile said:

well. First it just appears you have no idea what you’re talking about. 
 

but second, I wound say admitting to cherry picking facts and then sticking to that as some sort of justified way of evaluating things is the most asinine thing I’ve read in the thread. 
 

That’s quite literally the dumbest way to go about evaluating anything in life, yet here you are bragging about it and sticking to it 🤷‍♂️ 

Cool. Good talk. 

[tshile]

14 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

 

With all due respect, that's also the predictable fantasy of 2A people who think they'll protect themselves from the government (military). 

 

It's cool in the comics and in Hollywood, but I suspect we are better off without vigilantes. 

definitely. 
 

but, when people start taking to violence for whatever reason, and it’s allowed to continue, it will always end this way. 
 

There’s tons of blame to go around. I don’t only blame the people who are angry about injustice. I don’t only blame the people who are angry that towns/cities are being destroyed. In fact I don’t even put the bulk of the blame on them combined. 
 

but every step of this you can find government corruption, incompetence, etc. 

 

the funny thing is you’ll sit here and act like this is all horrible and bad and call it a 2A fantasy… but it was known this was the path we were down when the riots wouldn’t stop and the government decided to stop interfering. How many times have we seen clashes brewing and said “someone’s going to wind up getting hurt in all this…”. We’ve had forum members say they feel obligated to join local riots because of the injustice, only to be met with tons of other forum members telling them not do it; that they were risking their life; that it’s a total **** show out there with all sorts of bad actors running around taking advantage of the chaos. 
 

now it’s happened and we’re acting like it’s a surprise. 
 

the only surprise is it wasn’t worse. And that it hasn’t happened more often. 

23 minutes ago, PartyPosse said:

FMJ bullets

Out of curiosity which bullets would you have preferred?

 

just wondering if you actually understood that part either?

Edited November 16, 2021 by tshile

[tshile]

12 minutes ago, clietas said:

 

That's a bit over an oversimplification tho. Most sensible people were demanding accountability and responsible policing. Police unions response to that in certain places seemingly was to say hey don't bother doing your jobs as cops anymore. 

 

Pfft I don't even really see traffic stops here in NC anymore. Cops basically took their balls and went home butthurt. 🤭

I’m talking specifically about the riots and the way the police handled the riots. It’s not even debatable. It was an all day every day discussion here. 
 

not the general idea of policing. I have no problem with what you said about general policing. I think you’re spot on about that. 
 

(just because why not make conversation more complicated - but during the riots there were some pretty nefarious policing tactics too like shooting bean bags out of unmarked cars and basically kidnapping people into white vans…)

[Spaceman Spiff]

1 hour ago, PartyPosse said:

The interpretation differs in that I believe he went down with a premeditative hope to play cop and was looking for any excuse to shoot someone. That’s my perception. That alone to me means anyone could have acted in self-defense against him the way he did. His mannerisms after bail showed a much more honest depiction of how emotionally distraught he was versus the theatrics of what he brought to the courtroom. The kid is a psychopath and his history prior has shown enough of a pattern that no one should be surprised he’s in this position. He’ll undoubtedly get off but if you truly feel he went down there to keep things calm and orderly then you may as well chip in for that giant bronze statue they’ll probably built for him in Kenosha for being a hero.

 

I understand that's your perception, but where's the evidence that was his motive?  One of the people he shot had a gun, does that automatically mean he was there looking for an excuse to shoot someone?

 

Or do we just want to talk ourselves into thinking he was there to shoot someone because he looks like a little prick and we don't like him?

 

In regards to his post bail mannerisms, we're in agreement there.