2020 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[volsmet]

On 8/12/2019 at 8:03 PM, stevemcqueen1 said:

That two point conversion throw was a thing of beauty.  The man has a golden arm.  Just as good as Herbert's TBH.

 

I think when all is said and done, people are going to look back on the QB class of 2019 as a good one.    Very underhyped.

 

The jump Lock made from game 1 to game 2 was not a small one, I look for something similar from DH this week; I was watching he, Rosen (great game), & Lock at the same time... it was better than prom night. I didn’t get invited to prom.

 

😕

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[volsmet]

The best guard in the draft is Trey Smith, but he’s still questionable. He was the #1 recruit in the country coming out of HS, he can play tackle, but he’s as good a guard prospect as any while he’s just decent at tackle. His health concerns would likely move him down, I’d be happy to leave our daft with Thomas/Wirfs & Smith. 🤨

 

This draft is just too loaded... unfortunately everyone knows it, it’s not just us on the ES draft thread. 🙁

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Leatherwood sounds like such a badass oldschool football name.

 

[Going Commando]

It would be awesome to fix the OL in the first round of the draft.  If you've got a QB, an OL, and a DL, then you have the ingredients for a championship.

[Skinsinparadise]

19 hours ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

Leatherwood sounds like such a badass oldschool football name.

 

 

Alabama.  Marketable name.  Position of need.  We can bank it right now, Leatherhead will be the first round pick.  😀

[volsmet]

😕

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

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The only guy not dominating is Nelson who has been out all camp & is going to miss another month or two. This is how you build a roster, gentlemen & Grier truthers. 

 

 

The Bills had a heck of an ES draft.

 

DE: Sweat

OG: Risner

OT: Howard

CB: Dean

DE: Nelson

WR: Hurd

RB: Justice Hill

DL: Kingsley KeKe

OL: Forbes

LB: Elliss

[Commander -JB-]

When the Redskins season inevitably nosedives and they finish roughly 4-12 or 5-11 and their final home game has an attendance of probably 7,642 fans I wonder if Snyder will finally fire Bruce Allen.  Probably not, Allen will just fire Gruden to appease the idiot fan base and end up with the obligatory whiff on whoever is the top player picked next draft 🤷‍♂️

[Going Commando]

I might be crazy, but Oakland's roster actually looks pretty good.  I know people like the Chiefs and Chargers this year, but Oakland's roster is more balanced then theirs.  I think they might go worst to first.  They have the best collection of trench talent and quite a bit of raw talent in their secondary.  I could see them running a potent balanced attack on offense with Josh Jacobs being in the running for OROTY.

[Going Commando]

I think we can all see the writing on the wall for our offensive performance and issues this season, so I'm going to be working my way through the OL class this year.  Right now I'm watching cut ups of Walker Little #72 OT Stanford, and I can already see some issues.  The good news is his size is outstanding and his speed is excellent.  They are ideal for the OT position really.  He can handle a speed rush when he's set up for it.  And he can run.  On pulls he's a big body to run behind.  Snap quickness is good, but I'm not sure if I'd call it an elite trait.  The bad news is everything else.  Lack of play strength is very evident.  Issues with technique leading to serious problems with sustaining blocks.  The kick step and slide are segmented and inconsistent and the ability to mirror isn't as good as you'd hope for given how fast he is.  Lots of trouble handling quick inside counters.  And his balance is really bad.  So much lunging.  Punch is a little disappointing too--the violence is there but he just misses too much.  I wonder if he's just not seeing his targets well.  The recognition skills are also underdeveloped.  There are just a lot of reps there where he falls behind immediately and is fighting for his life.

 

In terms of personality, there is some real nasty there.  But he's not an intuitive player.

 

My take away is that he was super raw last season and is not close to being ready to start at LT in the NFL.  Maybe he makes a big leap this year.  If not, staying for his Senior season could probably do him a lot of good.  But he's also the kind of athlete and body at the OT position that could climb up a draft board in February even if his tape shows a lot of problems.

 

I'm going to keep watching him, but right now I'd put a Day 2 grade on him based on what I saw from his sophomore season.

[Going Commando]

Another takeaway is that I'm super excited about Bryce Love now.  This kid is truly dynamic.

 

KJ Costello is also a good one.  There is some rough stuff in his film, but honestly, I think he's smarter than Herbert.  Herbert is the far superior athlete, but the offense just runs more easily through Costello.

 

I think Herbert is being a little overrated, and Costello is being underrated.  They're closer than people think.  And that draft board that had Herbert ranked ahead of Tua Tagavailoa is crazy.  He is nowhere near as good as Tua.

 

There's not a huge difference in surrounding talent between Oregon and Stanford either.  if anything, the difference probably favors Herbert now.

[Going Commando]

Put it this way, Love is good enough to be the best player on our offense by his second or third season if he can return to what he was before he tore his ACL.  His speed and creativity were next level.  It would be a shame if his knee doesn't heal.

 

It's pretty wild that Stanford, of all places, had this kid and Christian McCaffery sharing a backfield at one point.  That is like Alabama or Georgia level depth.  Can't believe they couldn't win more games in 2017.

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Another takeaway is that I'm super excited about Bryce Love now.  This kid is truly dynamic.

 

KJ Costello is also a good one.  There is some rough stuff in his film, but honestly, I think he's smarter than Herbert.  Herbert is the far superior athlete, but the offense just runs more easily through Costello.

 

I think Herbert is being a little overrated, and Costello is being underrated.  They're closer than people think.  And that draft board that had Herbert ranked ahead of Tua Tagavailoa is crazy.  He is nowhere near as good as Tua.

 

There's not a huge difference in surrounding talent between Oregon and Stanford either.  if anything, the difference probably favors Herbert now.

 

The thing I wonder about Tua is how much of his performance is him and how much of it is him benefiting from what's basically a legendary receiving cast. I mean, watching Tua I can see all the talent but he also has some ludicrous receivers to throw to who get very open and who make some incredible catches. As usual, it's probably a combination of both. 

 

I actually had some of the same questions about Kyler Murray. I could clearly see the talent, but he also had some excellent receivers to throw to in Brown and Lamb who were constantly getting very open and made some huge plays for him on 50/50 types of balls. 

[Going Commando]

4 hours ago, mistertim said:

The thing I wonder about Tua is how much of his performance is him and how much of it is him benefiting from what's basically a legendary receiving cast.

 

No one wanted to hear this in last year's draft thread when they were arguing that we should pass on the 2019 QB class to chase after Tua this year.  And I don't remember anyone giving Kyler Murray **** at all about his supporting cast last year.  Pretty sure I was the only one who brought it up about him, and it was in defense of Haskins after people dumped on him for the quality of his supporting cast.

 

But I am not going to ding a QB because his teammates are good.  He's still the one making reads and executing the throws and running the offense and his strengths and weaknesses are on display in a highly functional offense.  Tua is an elite prospect just like Murray and Haskins were.  They were/are the best players on their college teams.

[mistertim]

32 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

No one wanted to hear this in last year's draft thread when they were arguing that we should pass on the 2019 QB class to chase after Tua this year.  And I don't remember anyone giving Kyler Murray **** at all about his supporting cast last year.  Pretty sure I was the only one who brought it up about him, and it was in defense of Haskins after people dumped on him for the quality of his supporting cast.

 

But I am not going to ding a QB because his teammates are good.  He's still the one making reads and executing the throws and running the offense and his strengths and weaknesses are on display in a highly functional offense.  Tua is an elite prospect just like Murray and Haskins were.  They were/are the best players on their college teams.

 

I actually noted the supporting cast stuff quite a few times as well before the draft...about Murray and Haskins mostly (since they were actually coming out in this past draft) but I also mentioned it of Tua sometimes as well. 

 

I agree in general that a QB shouldn't necessarily be dinged for his surrounding cast. You can still tell if the guy has talent, and he still has to get the ball there. However, when it comes to transitioning to the NFL game, where everyone is an elite athlete, where the throwing widows are much smaller, and where separation = 1 or 2 steps on a DB as opposed to 1 or 2 yards then you have to take it into account as far as the potential acclimation time. 

 

It's one of the reasons I think Daniel Jones is playing a bit better than Haskins and Murray at the moment...he had crap talent at Duke and he was used to having to throw into tight windows to guys that were well covered. He was also used to often being under duress in the pocket, which is a relatively new experience for Haskins and Murray. That doesn't mean Jones is better or will be better (I'm incredibly skeptical that he'll amount to anything more than mediocre), but it does explain a bit to me why he might be slightly ahead of their curve. 

 

[volsmet]

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

No one wanted to hear this in last year's draft thread when they were arguing that we should pass on the 2019 QB class to chase after Tua this year.  And I don't remember anyone giving Kyler Murray **** at all about his supporting cast last year.  Pretty sure I was the only one who brought it up about him, and it was in defense of Haskins after people dumped on him for the quality of his supporting cast.

 

But I am not going to ding a QB because his teammates are good.  He's still the one making reads and executing the throws and running the offense and his strengths and weaknesses are on display in a highly functional offense.  Tua is an elite prospect just like Murray and Haskins were.  They were/are the best players on their college teams.

 

Because the passes Tua & Kyler make we’re far different than those made by DH. The point was heard & discussed thoroughly. 

 

 

[volsmet]

33 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I agree in general that a QB shouldn't necessarily be dinged for his surrounding cast. You can still tell if the guy has talent, and he still has to get the ball there. However, when it comes to transitioning to the NFL game, where everyone is an elite athlete, where the throwing widows are much smaller, and where separation = 1 or 2 steps on a DB as opposed to 1 or 2 yards then you have to take it into account as far as the potential acclimation time. 

 

 

Woke up in strawman land.

 

DH wasn’t knocked for his supporting cast. How those players got their numbers was discussed; As... well, it should have been. The only thing dismissed in the draft thread was logic that some took personally because rational discussion resulted in some less than glowing analysis of Grier and/or Haskins. No evidence mattered ... not with unlimited straw available for truthers. Nobody cared to break down a game... people - you - for instance, just dismissed posts you didn’t agree with as if they were personal attacks on the prospect. The beauty of the internet.

 

[volsmet]

The point summarized:

 

On 5/22/2019 at 1:53 PM, volsmet said:

 

It’s not truly ypa, it’s depth of target, my apologies for that. It’s, as you know, just more difficult to make longer throws, it’s easier to take things away in the NFL — Haskins averaged 7.8 ypt & 22% of his targets were to Campbell who only averaged 4.5 yards of depth per target — that’s the kind of thing scouts believe any draft-worthy could replicate in college, it’s simplifying things to a point that you can’t project it, you can’t throw the ball, 111 times, to a guy averaging 4.5 ypt, and move the football in the nfl. You hit a guy running 4.3 down the sideline & it’s impressive to everyone & DH does that, but the amount of the time he was simply asked to get the ball to a superior athlete, near the los, is college football only... you can’t learn much from it.

 

Jones gets ripped for dumping the ball off, but his depth of target numbers were nearly identical. Scouts believe Jones could have put up DH numbers at OSU, but the reality is, he probably wouldn’t have beaten out Tate Martell. 

 

To put it more clearly, the lesser the ypt, the more you’re seen to be relying on what’s around you rather than making those around you better.

 

DH has young QB issues that were masked by great scheme & slow opponents — but the fact that he was so prolific with his 2nd read passes shows a maturity you rarely see from guys in year 1... particularly strict pocket passers, it’s not comfortable moving off of your first read, but DH excelled at it in his only year starting.

 

Haskins will need to adjust to the speed of the defenses & the absence of any advantage in his weapons, he will have to make more advanced throws in far lesser conditions vs far superior athletes.

 

 

 

[mistertim]

8 minutes ago, volsmet said:

 

Woke up in strawman land.

 

DH wasn’t knocked for his supporting cast. How those players got their numbers was discussed; As... well, it should have been. The only thing dismissed in the draft thread was logic that some took personally because rational discussion resulted in some less than glowing analysis of Grier and/or Haskins. No evidence mattered ... not with unlimited straw available for truthers. Nobody cared to break down a game... people - you - for instance, just dismissed posts you didn’t agree with as if they were personal attacks on the prospect. The beauty of the internet.

 

 

That's not an unfair criticism of me when it comes to Grier. I did really like what I saw from him as a prospect and sometimes ignored knocks against him for a while, but I like to think that towards the end I was more open about his limitations. And it's still very early but so far your analysis of his shortcomings has been pretty spot on after watching his preseason play. 

 

[Skinsinparadise]