Anselmheifer Posted November 15, 2018 Share Posted November 15, 2018 I think you're underestimating how high Polite will go, Mcqueen. Polite looks like he is going to run in the low 4.6's or high 4.5's to me. Maybe he will be a little shorter than Khalil Mack, but I think he will compare favorably athletically. He looks like a shoe in top 12 player to me. I would love to add him to our front. I think Polite, an ILB and a CB make this a defense to be feared. Add a WR and pass catching RB that can stay healthy and some interior OL, and this is a dangerous team. Even with Alex Smith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted November 16, 2018 Author Share Posted November 16, 2018 You could be right @Anselmheifer. A lot depends on what he measures. Khalil Mack measured 6'3 with 33" arms. If Polite measures as lengthy as that, then he's got a chance to go that high. I've been reading some chatter that Ed Oliver might fall in the draft because he'll measure too small. Some talk that his playing weight is actually in the 270s. I'm reminded of how Aaron Donald fell to 13. If that happens, and he makes it to the mid to late teens, then I think you have to consider trading up for Oliver. He's got best defensive lineman in the NFL potential like Donald did. Having him could make us fearsome too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted November 16, 2018 Author Share Posted November 16, 2018 I bet Ed Oliver is going to quit his team. He was damned mad at Major Applewhite's little power move tonight. He's a proud kid and he's already got one foot out of the door anyway. I can feel him dropping in the draft. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anselmheifer Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 8 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said: I bet Ed Oliver is going to quit his team. He was damned mad at Major Applewhite's little power move tonight. He's a proud kid and he's already got one foot out of the door anyway. I can feel him dropping in the draft. ? What happened? Edit: Found it. Sounds like he might actually not play again. http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/25289552/houston-star-dt-ed-oliver-heated-incident-coach-major-applewhite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted November 16, 2018 Author Share Posted November 16, 2018 This is going to be a crazy draft. It's too deep in top end talent not to be. And teams will be reaching in the first round like always. Some blue chipper that we never thought would be available is going to slide right down to us. Someone like Ed Oliver or Greedy Williams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bird_1972 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 9 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said: I bet Ed Oliver is going to quit his team. He was damned mad at Major Applewhite's little power move tonight. He's a proud kid and he's already got one foot out of the door anyway. I can feel him dropping in the draft. ? My read of that article is that the coach may have been a dick, but he was also trying to be a disciplinarian and treat him like all of the other players. I think it's a bad sign if he thinks he's above the rest of the team. We don't need that attitude in our locker room. Especially when there are way bigger needs than taking a flier on a DT like him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted November 16, 2018 Author Share Posted November 16, 2018 37 minutes ago, bird_1972 said: My read of that article is that the coach may have been a dick, but he was also trying to be a disciplinarian and treat him like all of the other players. I think it's a bad sign if he thinks he's above the rest of the team. We don't need that attitude in our locker room. Especially when there are way bigger needs than taking a flier on a DT like him. Taking a flier? He's the best player in the class. Major Applewhite really showed what a stern disciplinarian he was by running away from him into the locker room after he got mad. It was a butthurt power move. Oliver reacted poorly, but if I'm an NFL scout I wouldn't care. The kid's a proud competitor and (rightfully) believes that he's earned his place on that team. I'm not interested in prioritizing need over taking BPA either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bird_1972 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said: Taking a flier? He's the best player in the class. Major Applewhite really showed what a stern disciplinarian he was by running away from him into the locker room after he got mad. It was a butthurt power move. Oliver reacted poorly, but if I'm an NFL scout I wouldn't care. The kid's a proud competitor and (rightfully) believes that he's earned his place on that team. I'm not interested in prioritizing need over taking BPA either. We should approach the draft with a blend of BPA and need. Not just BPA alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Just now, bird_1972 said: We should approach the draft with a blend of BPA and need. Not just BPA alone. Why? What position can we not improve? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 4 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said: Why? What position can we not improve? To be fair... the term BPA is rarely ever pure best player available. The way most evaluators use it, and GMs, is that it is a system based on the best player with a weight to position. Otherwise you may wind up with a punter as the top overall pick in the draft at some juncture. Having said that, I think both lines should almost always be a part of the weighted formula. What happens if Allen, Payne or Ion go down? A stud DT helps this team, believe it or not. Especially with them all on rookie deals. You come to a crossroad at contract time but in the mean time you're in good shape. You can never, in my opinion, completely remove either line from the BPA equation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bird_1972 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 11 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said: Why? What position can we not improve? Theoretical example: We take a guy because we are going BPA and he ends up in a position where we already have young starting talent. Are you going to burn a 1st rounder on a guy who is going to sit on the bench? If he's a QB, I can see it - groom him behind Alex but otherwise, we will waste a high pick on a guy who only plays a portion of the snaps at best. At worst, just sits on the bench. 5 minutes ago, KDawg said: To be fair... the term BPA is rarely ever pure best player available. The way most evaluators use it, and GMs, is that it is a system based on the best player with a weight to position. Otherwise you may wind up with a punter as the top overall pick in the draft at some juncture. Having said that, I think both lines should almost always be a part of the weighted formula. What happens if Allen, Payne or Ion go down? A stud DT helps this team, believe it or not. Especially with them all on rookie deals. You come to a crossroad at contract time but in the mean time you're in good shape. You can never, in my opinion, completely remove either line from the BPA equation. Thank you. At least someone gets it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berggy9598 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 46 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said: Why? What position can we not improve? None if you continue to ignore the fact that we already have 3 dominant players on the interior defensive line. Safety is another position that doesn't need a first round pick if HCD is resigned. 41 minutes ago, KDawg said: To be fair... the term BPA is rarely ever pure best player available. The way most evaluators use it, and GMs, is that it is a system based on the best player with a weight to position. Otherwise you may wind up with a punter as the top overall pick in the draft at some juncture. Having said that, I think both lines should almost always be a part of the weighted formula. What happens if Allen, Payne or Ion go down? A stud DT helps this team, believe it or not. Especially with them all on rookie deals. You come to a crossroad at contract time but in the mean time you're in good shape. You can never, in my opinion, completely remove either line from the BPA equation. This a million times. It's not a matter of opinion either no team completely ignores their roster when deciding who to draft in the first round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 I know BPA is positionally weighted. It's not weighted by personnel. Draft picks aren't for filling holes. That's FA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Just now, Berggy9598 said: None if you continue to ignore the fact that we already have 3 dominant players on the interior defensive line Just now, bird_1972 said: Thank you. At least someone gets it. Just now, KDawg said: A stud DT helps this team, believe it or not So, you both agree with Kdawg saying we could draft a DT (which with this draft some great ones are going to slide and it would be dumb not to come away with one), even though he was in agreement with me that not even DT is out of the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bird_1972 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 8 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said: So, you both agree with Kdawg saying we could draft a DT (which with this draft some great ones are going to slide and it would be dumb not to come away with one), even though he was in agreement with me that not even DT is out of the question. I'm open to that idea. But I still think that a blended mix of BPA and need may cause players at other positions to have higher net grades and, therefore, make more sense than a DT. Nowhere did I necessarily say to NOT take a DT. I mean, if all the players at higher needs all are demonstrably worse prospects than a stud DT that falls to us, you take the DT. But if the DT is only marginally better than a prospect at OT, OG, ILB, or TE - you take one of them instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OVCChairman Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 11 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said: So, you both agree with Kdawg saying we could draft a DT (which with this draft some great ones are going to slide and it would be dumb not to come away with one), even though he was in agreement with me that not even DT is out of the question. This coming April, if Daron Payne 2.0 and Brandon Scherff 2.0 are available at 20ish, you take Scherff because LG is the bigger 'need' If Tim Settle and Sean Lauvoa are available in the 5th, you take Settle, despite the bigger 'need' being at LG. You don't pass a superior talent to take a position of need, but you don't neglect a position of need if there's a comparable player available where you currently have depth. Of course there are players that fall, or inexplicably are available at a position that you weren't anticipating, where you go a direction that doesn't necessarily fill a need, but the talent and possible upside is so great, it's worth the risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Just now, bird_1972 said: I'm open to that idea. But I still think that a blended mix of BPA and need may cause players at other positions to have higher net grades and, therefore, make more sense than a DT. Nowhere did I necessarily say to NOT take a DT. I mean, if all the players at higher needs all are demonstrably worse prospects than a stud DT that falls to us, you take the DT. But if the DT is only marginally better than a prospect at OT, OG, ILB, or TE - you take one of them instead. No you dont. You take the DT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OVCChairman Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said: No you dont. You take the DT. even if that talent grade and level are similar to the OT, OG, ILB, or TE? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 Just now, OVCChairman said: This coming April, if Daron Payne 2.0 and Brandon Scherff 2.0 are available at 20ish, you take Scherff because LG is the bigger 'need' Yeah probably, as long as they're of equal value. If one is ahead on your board, you take that one, That's also tricky though. The LG does play every offensive snap, which makes him important, but solid to great guards are also generally available later in the draft. Great DTs dont play every snap, but have a larger impact when they do and it's harder to find an impact DT later in the draft. Last year. I'd say Hernandez and Payne were pretty close to each other. If they were equal on our board, while we already had Allen and Iaon, by your reasoning wed have passed on Payne. Which player has had the bigger impact on their unit this season? Just now, OVCChairman said: even if that talent grade and level are similar to the OT, OG, ILB, or TE? He said the DT was better. Then yes. DT. Now if every player is equally graded, that's a different conversation and since these things are so fluid, this upcoming draft has a ton of DL talent, which means the DT will probably be better, but there will also be good ones later on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bird_1972 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 14 minutes ago, OVCChairman said: even if that talent grade and level are similar to the OT, OG, ILB, or TE? No, you don't ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OVCChairman Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 4 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said: Yeah probably, as long as they're of equal value. If one is ahead on your board, you take that one, That's also tricky though. The LG does play every offensive snap, which makes him important, but solid to great guards are also generally available later in the draft. Great DTs dont play every snap, but have a larger impact when they do and it's harder to find an impact DT later in the draft. Last year. I'd say Hernandez and Payne were pretty close to each other. If they were equal on our board, while we already had Allen and Iaon, by your reasoning wed have passed on Payne. Which player has had the bigger impact on their unit this season? He said the DT was better. Then yes. DT. I don't think they were that close... According to NFL.com https://www.nfl.com/prospects/daron-payne?id=32462018-0002-5600-68ba-6b48873dba9b Payne Prospect Grade 6.51 CHANCE TO BECOME PRO BOWL-CALIBER PLAYER Hernandez Prospect Grade 6.12 SHOULD BECOME INSTANT STARTER Now full disclosure, I would have probably really happy had we ended up with Hernandez, but looking back I think we made the right move. Also, while those three are listed as DT, we know they play different positions, and all 3 can be on the field at the same time, playing different positions. 4 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said: Now if every player is equally graded, that's a different conversation and since these things are so fluid, this upcoming draft has a ton of DL talent, which means the DT will probably be better, but there will also be good ones later on. Absolutely, and if we can find a stud DT that falls, I say go for it. But this coming season, if there's a DT on the board graded at 6.1 and an LG graded at 6.0, both expected to become instant 'starter' ability, I go LG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bird_1972 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 @Koolblue13 I do see your point and I guess we can agree to disagree but I do think if they are close enough on the board, you have to factor in need. You also said it yourself - the OG in the situation you raised would be on the field every offensive snap vs. any DT we take. There is a third option if a stud DT drops to us, we trade down and get more picks and let another team jump up to get him. That way we have a better shot of backfilling our roster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 I dont. And that was just an example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bird_1972 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said: I dont. And that was just an example. You don't what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 The draft isnt for next season. It's for the next 5 or so. You dont fill holes with the draft. You add talent. The best talent you can get anywhere on the field. Just now, bird_1972 said: You don't what? That was to OVC saying to take a worse rated player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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