CommanderDOOM Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 13 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said: Again, it's not a matter of philosophy, it's a matter of execution and competence, imo. Hindsight is 20/10 . If we would've known Lanier was serviceable, Ionidis would blossom and Allen would fall to us......plus didnt we cut a guy who didnt look bad? Why wouldn't Brown expect to be the highest paid ilber??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 14 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said: I don't think I totally agree about the general theme of that. You can sign stars, you can sign solid starters, you can sign depth. The important thing is to hit on the guys you do sign. McClain and McGee just didn't have any impact. You could have signed Jonathan Hankins or Dontari Poe for their combined price, that would have been better. You could have spread the money out to 4 or 5 players, that would have been better. You could have signed nobody and saved the space for this year, that would have been better. Again, it's not a matter of philosophy, it's a matter of execution and competence, imo. Yep, you have to have hits with who you sign. Naturally. The point Cooley was making is stop signing average players for above average prices. If you are spending money in free agency, you will benefit better from a less is more strategy where instead of focusing on adding bodies -- pick players who are proven to be distinctly above average from the deeper end of the pool. You bringing up Hankins and Poe who in the previous off season we saw here as upper tier guys (I commented on both plenty among other people), not Calais Campbell caliber, but in the tier above the McClain-McGee types -- only enhances that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus T Firefly Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, TheShredSkinz said: Hindsight is 20/10 . If we would've known Lanier was serviceable, Ionidis would blossom and Allen would fall to us......plus didnt we cut a guy who didnt look bad? I don't know about the cut you're referring to. But I don't think it's a matter of hindsight. Even with those three young players, most everyone thinks we need help along the DL. Again, if those two were good signings, it would be a discussion about how deep we are there. If they were good signings, we would be in good shape even if Allen hadn't fallen to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus T Firefly Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: Yep, you have to have hits with who you sign. Naturally. The point Cooley was making is stop signing average players for above average prices. If you are spending money in free agency, you will benefit better from a less is more strategy where instead of focusing on adding bodies -- pick players who are proven to be distinctly above average from the deeper end of the pool. You bringing up Hankins and Poe who in the previous off season we saw here as upper tier guys (I commented on both plenty among other people), not Calais Campbell caliber, but in the tier above the McClain-McGee types -- only enhances that point. Yes, and my point again is that it's matter of getting your money's worth, and that it's not about the specific tier you're shopping in. The Patriots won Super Bowls with teams that were largely built on low-priced vets, but they also won one because Darrelle Revis put them over the top. For us, Zach Brown was obviously a great signing, and that price was clearly not star-level. And it's not like we don't have enough examples of high-priced busts around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said: talking up Calais Campbell should have been who they pursued last time. In fairness we were in on him until it became apparent the Jags were just going to keep upping the cash, or so we were told. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 23 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said: Yes, and my point again is that it's matter of getting your money's worth, and that it's not about the specific tier you're shopping in. The Patriots won Super Bowls with teams that were largely built on low-priced vets, but they also won one because Darrelle Revis put them over the top. For us, Zach Brown was obviously a great signing, and that price was clearly not star-level. And it's not like we don't have enough examples of high-priced busts around here. Zach Brown was a pro bowler. I talked about him months before we signed him. He wasn't marquee. But he was still a big name. Different class than McGee and McClain. Cooley's point was above average players are statistically speaking are more likely to play above average when they move from team to team His point is if you are going to overpay in FA then overpay for good, don't overpay for average. Naturally, I am not saying that this principle can't fail and or there aren't exceptions to this. I don't think it has to be one wild and crazy extreme versus another. But the point in an apples to apples fashion to our current predicament -- I prefer one of the marquee WRs names -- not two Andre Roberts types and hope to get lucky with one of them. 5 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said: In fairness we were in on him until it became apparent the Jags were just going to keep upping the cash, or so we were told. I recall Keim saying he was top of the FA wants weeks before FA started. Breer said they were working off of Scot's FA list. But I don't recall hearing they even got into the bidding. For example, we know they pursued Logan but lost out to the Chiefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: I recall Keim saying he was top of the FA wants weeks before FA started. Breer said they were working off of Scot's FA list. But I don't recall hearing they even got into the bidding. For example, we know they pursued Logan but lost out to the Chiefs. Cant get the link across from espn but... His first two offers came from the Jaguars and the Washington Redskins. Each offered $12 million per year. When Campbell began debating the two offers, he felt Jacksonville offered him the best chance of going to the playoffs. Then the Jaguars increased their offer to $14.75 million -- just short of Campbell's goal. "That's enough for me," Campbell said in the video. But late in the afternoon on March 8, the day before free agency began, the Denver Broncos entered the race to sign Campbell. That changed the entire dynamic. Campbell is from Denver and grew up a Broncos fan, so the idea of going home to most likely finish his career was almost too good to pass up. Then the Broncos made an offer: two years guaranteed with an option for a third season. The first year would be worth $12 million and the second $14 million, giving Campbell an average of $13 million guaranteed. The option year, however, would be worth $10 million, dropping the average to $12 million if Campbell finished out the contract. He discussed the idea of asking for incentives to bring the annual average up to $15 million. If Denver had agreed to that, he would've signed with the Broncos. On March 9, the day free agency began, Campbell received another offer from Jacksonville: $60 million over four years, $15 million a year, $30 million guaranteed. Campbell's agent, Tom Condon, also pointed out that signing with Jacksonville would come with no state income tax. 30 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said: Yes, and my point again is that it's matter of getting your money's worth, and that it's not about the specific tier you're shopping in. True, although it looks to me like there is more overpaid crap from FA these days. Once the tags filter out the fine meat, the scraps get fought over by the desperate vultures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carex Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 That story feels like hindsight. The Skins had made the playoffs the previous year, were like half a game out that season and the defense, which he would improve, was the weaker part of the team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobandweave Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 10 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said: On March 9, the day free agency began, Campbell received another offer from Jacksonville: $60 million over four years, $15 million a year, $30 million guaranteed. Campbell's agent, Tom Condon, also pointed out that signing with Jacksonville would come with no state income tax. He turned 31 before the season started. Yes I know he's good now but damn that looks like an awful contract considering the age. How long does anyone expect him to play at such a high level? I for one am glad that we didn't get him, too old and too much money. That's the thing with free agency though. 32 employers someone is gonna overpay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, carex said: That story feels like hindsight. The Skins had made the playoffs the previous year, were like half a game out that season and the defense, which he would improve, was the weaker part of the team Man, you just can't let a Redskins slight slide, can you? While he would have helped the Redskins defense, the Jacksonville defense was already good and he only made it better, in what is historically an awful division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, carex said: That story feels like hindsight. The Skins had made the playoffs the previous year, were like half a game out that season and the defense, which he would improve, was the weaker part of the team Change the name from Campbell to Cousins, increase the numbers, and it may well be a story from the future.... Although if he goes to the Jags on less money he's taking an easy ride. I still think he'll be in love with the thought of playing for Elway. 1 minute ago, bobandweave said: He turned 31 before the season started. Yes I know he's good now but damn that looks like an awful contract considering the age. How long does anyone expect him to play at such a high level? I for one am glad that we didn't get him, too old and too much money. That's the thing with free agency though. 32 employers someone is gonna overpay Im glad too at that price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Just now, bobandweave said: He turned 31 before the season started. Yes I know he's good now but damn that looks like an awful contract considering the age. How long does anyone expect him to play at such a high level? I for one am glad that we didn't get him, too old and too much money. That's the thing with free agency though. 32 employers someone is gonna overpay Realistically, 2 years are guaranteed. He just played one of them and the team is in the AFC Championship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobandweave Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 You bust my chops pretty much anytime I post here my man but this is soooooo true!!!! Great point I hope is not lost on the front office this or any year. 24 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: His point is if you are going to overpay in FA then overpay for good, don't overpay for average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said: Realistically, 2 years are guaranteed. He just played one of them and the team is in the AFC Championship. True, contract with a low signing bonus and high early base salaries. The beauty of a **** load of cap space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobandweave Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said: Realistically, 2 years are guaranteed. He just played one of them and the team is in the AFC Championship. Still how you think this fan base would have reacted to knowing we just spent 30 million on a 31 year old? Maybe I underestimate the reaction but dammmmm that's a lot of money for a 31 year old Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Just now, bobandweave said: Still how you think this fan base would have reacted to knowing we just spent 30 million on a 31 year old? Maybe I underestimate the reaction but dammmmm that's a lot of money for a 31 year old He's a really kick ass 31 year old. I'd venture a guess they would be pretty pumped. They can pretty much get out of his deal unscathed after next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carex Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 33 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said: Man, you just can't let a Redskins slight slide, can you? While he would have helped the Redskins defense, the Jacksonville defense was already good and he only made it better, in what is historically an awful division. no, I can't that's what being a fan is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 30 minutes ago, bobandweave said: You bust my chops pretty much anytime I post here my man but this is soooooo true!!!! Great point I hope is not lost on the front office this or any year. Thanks. And as for busting chops? I guess I need to refresh my memory. I disagree with much of your take about Kirk but I don't recall any FA debates. But its been awhile since I've gotten into a FA debate so I gather I must have forgot. I'd have to go back to last off season. Then, my sore spot was D line/nose tackle. So I guess then it might have been about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobandweave Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 48 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said: He's a really kick ass 31 year old. I'd venture a guess they would be pretty pumped. They can pretty much get out of his deal unscathed after next season. So like I think you guys are missing the boat on the Jaguars Defense this year. When the season started the Jags Defense was incredible at defending the opposing receiver and awful at defending the opposing running back. Then Jacksonville did a trade with the Buffalo Bills in October sending a 6th round pick for Marcel Dareus. Once he arrived he shored up the rushing attack defense and the Jaguar defense became elite. Up until Dareus got to Jacksonville (10/27/2017) the Jags Defense had given up big games to guys like Bilal Powell (163 yards) and others. Once Dareus arrived they haven't given up 80 yards to any RB they have had to face including the playoffs. The one thing that Dareus does extremely well is stop the opposing RB. For just a 6th round pick the Redskins could have used him this year bigtime considering our biggest area of weakness Defensively was and still is stopping the opposing RB. It was a huge opportunity missed and besides Dareus is only 27 years old compared to the 31 year old we were discussing. That trade changed Jacksonville's fortune. Before Dareus they were 3-3 and after Dareus they are 8-3. 16 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said: Thanks. And as for busting chops? I guess I need to refresh my memory. I disagree with much of your take about Kirk but I don't recall any FA debates. But its been awhile since I've gotten into a FA debate so I gather I must have forgot. I'd have to go back to last off season. Then, my sore spot was D line/nose tackle. So I guess then it might have been about that? Nah we would have agreed back then about that too. My heart was fully on Bennie Logan in free agency last year. I knew then that this Defense couldn't stop the opposing running back and he was the best available player. The only thing we ever disagree on is he who shall not be named I think lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carex Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, bobandweave said: So like I think you guys are missing the boat on the Jaguars Defense this year. When the season started the Jags Defense was incredible at defending the opposing receiver and awful at defending the opposing running back. Then Jacksonville did a trade with the Buffalo Bills in October sending a 6th round pick for Marcel Dareus. Once he arrived he shored up the rushing attack defense and the Jaguar defense became elite. Up until Dareus got to Jacksonville (10/27/2017) the Jags Defense had given up big games to guys like Bilal Powell (163 yards) and others. Once Dareus arrived they haven't given up 80 yards to any RB they have had to face including the playoffs. The one thing that Dareus does extremely well is stop the opposing RB. For just a 6th round pick the Redskins could have used him this year bigtime considering our biggest area of weakness Defensively was and still is stopping the opposing RB. It was a huge opportunity missed and besides Dareus is only 27 years old he's playing in a 4-3 so we don't know how he'd have done for us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordranger76 Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 I remember a lot of us were wanting that one big time guy on the line last year. I was a Hankins guy. I understand why they signed the guys they did for the potential upside but I do not understand why they did not give an immediate out in the contracts. McClain should be cut this year but they hamstrung themselves with a cap hit. I still like McGee as rotational depth but they should be getting a new lineman this year. This may be the year they get Poe or Logan believe it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderDOOM Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 1 thing not understood is why we didn't sign our own Chris Baker if we could've had him for the same price or less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, TheShredSkinz said: 1 thing not understood is why we didn't sign our own Chris Baker if we could've had him for the same price or less. He was a locker room issue, and his biggest asset was his nickname. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderDOOM Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 13 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said: He was a locker room issue, and his biggest asset was his nickname. Didnt know that. Every team needs some "Swaggy" though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 34 minutes ago, TheShredSkinz said: Didnt know that. Every team needs some "Swaggy" though. Swaggy was a guilty pleasure for me. I knew he wasn't as good as his act but liked him anyways. The Bucs currently have some swaggy and wish they didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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