The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

53 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

Ignoring the opening attempt to attach strawman-type characteristic that don't resemble anything close to fact...

 

It's interesting that you don't actually know what Shanahan said...you only know what I described. I didn't quote him. So for all you know, Shanahan said "I had to talk Mr. Snyder into seeing Griffin as worth it. Guys were joking afterwards about how highly I thought of Griffin." Would that still merit a response of "What else was he supposed to say?" Of course not. But you didn't even ask what exactly Shanahan said...you didn't need to know. All you needed to know was that if Shanahan said it and it contradicted your beliefs, it must have merely been him towing the company line.

 

As for it being up for debate since none of us were there, if that's the case then what was said at the time by those who were there should be given more validity than what people who were NOT there imagine must have happened based on their preconceptions, which seems to be the only thing some on this thread are capable of. Shanny later contradicting his own words only shows how self-serving he can be.

 

But I get it..."What else was he supposed to say" can be applied to anything that goes against what we believe, requires no extra thought whatsoever, and we can safely continue with our long-held beliefs uninterrupted.

 

 

I listen to Kevin and Cooley every day.  I’ve heard him rehash his conversations with Shanny.  So you aren’t breaking any new ground here, per usual.

 

When have I ever said that Dan is in the draft room telling Shanahan who to pick?  Never.  Btw, the choice to give up the farm to take Griffin was made way before the draft room was even setup.

 

When did I say that Shanny didn’t like or was forced to take Griffin?  Never.

 

What I said was that a blockbuster trade giving up all those assets to get a flashy player like Griffin wreaks of Dan.  I’ve never once absolved Shanny from blame for the trade.  Given the red carpet treatment Griffin recieved from Dan, at the behest of Shanahan, it’s not a stretch to believe that Dan was still up to his shenanigans and pushed both Shanny and Bruce to get Griffin at whatever cost.

 

But continue on with your holier than thou schtick where you are the king of facts and psychology that coincidentally always winds up where Dan and Bruce are absolved from most of if not all blame for the bad things that follow them like the plague.  

[Tsailand]

9 hours ago, OVCChairman said:

there is a sector of the Redskins fanbase that would NEVER support Snyder's decisions, even if we won, because they've become so soured on Snyder himself.  That there is a group out there that still can't admit that he's (at least on the surface) appeared to have changed his management style,

 

OK here is the problem with Snyder: He makes terrible football decisions.  He has made terrible decisions for 20 years, and he is never going to change.  The best we can hope for is a respite where he makes less terrible decisions.  However, there is so much parity built into the NFL that, with a lot of luck, we might finally have a really good season, despite Synder's terrible decisions.  It has not happened yet, but it might.  If it does, I will still hate Snyder.

 

Here is an analogy for you.  Suppose we're married (you're the wife).  I am unemployed, because I cannot hold down a job for more than 1 month.  You have a job that just barely pays the bills, most of the time.  We only have $50 left until you get paid next week.  However, that is enough to fill up the car (so you can drive to work next week), buy groceries (so we can eat next week) and buy our kid's asthma medicine (so he don't die this week).

 

I take our last $50.  I drive to the gas station and buy $50 worth of scratch off lottery tickets.  The first 49... nothing.  The last one, I win $10,000!  Hurrah! Our troubles are solved for the next few months! Until I inevitably find something stupid to waste the windfall on. 

 

Does that mean I make good decisions?  Does that mean you aren't going to divorce my dumb ass?

 

[HardcoreZorn]

Some of Dan’s biggest detractors even admit the roster is the best its been in Dan’s tenure maybe ever or since Gibbs II who knew what he was doing. So what happened? Dumb luck? We miraculously went from trading early to mid round picks for TJ Ducketts to now landing pro bowl caliber right tackles in the 3rd round? We actually started signing our own to long term deals and rewarded them for their services instead of letting them fly out the door like Pierce and Clark? We just stumbled into 11 (now 10) draft picks in 2019 instead of the usual 4-5 we used to go into draft weekend with? 

 

I get it hasn’t lead to sustainable success yet but it takes years to reverse a culture as poor as it used to be around here. And what I described above isn’t going from REALLY bad to just bad. It’s gone from REALLY bad to good. This is how teams who experience long term success operate, what we are doing right now.

 

It’s OK to admit that without thinking Snyder hasn’t also been terrible in the past. The sun will come up tomorrow. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

4 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

I listen to Kevin and Cooley every day.  I’ve heard him rehash his conversations with Shanny.  So you aren’t breaking any new ground here, per usual.

 

When have I ever said that Dan is in the draft room telling Shanahan who to pick?  Never.  Btw, the choice to give up the farm to take Griffin was made way before the draft room was even setup.

 

When did I say that Shanny didn’t like or was forced to take Griffin?  Never.

 

What I said was that a blockbuster trade giving up all those assets to get a flashy player like Griffin wreaks of Dan.  I’ve never once absolved Shanny from blame for the trade.  Given the red carpet treatment Griffin recieved from Dan, at the behest of Shanahan, it’s not a stretch to believe that Dan was still up to his shenanigans and pushed both Shanny and Bruce to get Griffin at whatever cost.

 

But continue on with your holier than thou schtick where you are the king of facts and psychology that coincidentally always winds up where Dan and Bruce are absolved from most of if not all blame for the bad things that follow them like the plague.  

 

1) I feel like I've said this to you before, or maybe to someone who used the same comment, but if so it's just as ineffective now as it was then..but since when has it been the goal of ES members to "break new ground" with their posts? There would be about 3 new posts a week if that were the case. Seriously, do you think your complaining posts about Snyder are breaking new ground?

 

2) Where did I say you claimed Snyder was in the draft room dictating things to Shanahan? You obviously don't get the point of my posts...which was how lazy and generic and often just flat out wrong it was/is to use the "what else was he supposed to say" argument to dismiss the actual words and comments from people we are discussing. And it doesn't matter if Snyder or Allen or anyone said the words...it's just incredibly weak and lazy, and requires literally zero thought to use.

 

3) Sooo...let me get this straight: You don't absolve Shanahan from his involvement in the trade for Griffin...but you also dismiss Shanahan's own words at the time about his involvement in the trade for Griffin.

 

You never said Snyder was in the draft room telling Shanahan who to pick...but you also feel strongly that Snyder was pushing both Shanahan and Allen to trade for the 2nd overall draft pick...He practically forced Shanny to trade for the pick, but he wasn't gonna tell Shanahan who to use the pick on.

 

'The hell? lol...And people call Allen a politician...that's some grade-A double talk that any political candidate would love to have in his arsenal.

 

And by the way, I don't think Sheehan meant that literally about Snyder not being in the draft room.

 

4) Yes, yes, I am the King of Facts and Psychology who, if you apply selective memory to its fullest, only reaches conclusions where Snyder and Allen are never to blame. Here's a peek behind the curtain: I'm actually an over-analytical who obsesses over logic and has a massive pet peeve against two things: lazy conventional wisdom being passed off as proven fact, and any theory--conspiratorial or otherwise--that can be flushed down the toilet by applying even a little bit of logic. Needless to say, there's a ****load of both in too many posts about Snyder (and now Allen). I attack the argument, regardless of who or what it's about. Not too many people do that, especially in sports and politics. That's why my first post to you was about the lazy conventional wisdom of "What else was he supposed to say"...and about how the theory of Snyder's relationship with Griffin being proof of anything gets flushed down the toilet when you apply even a little logic, such as considering Snyder's relationship with Portis.

 

Also, saying you think I have a holier than thou "schtick" means that you feel I'm not really holier than thou. So thank you lol...

[zCommander]

@Califan007

 

I know you are responding to SIP in the post above but I wanted to get your thought on what Shanny said after leaving the Skins:

 

“Dan knew I wasn’t very happy about what we did, but he wanted everybody to celebrate how smart we were, so we jumped on his plane and met the other owners on his yacht,” Mike Shanahan recalled. “Everyone was celebrating. I just didn’t think it was very smart to give up that much for a guy who we didn’t even know if he could drop back and throw.

“When I finally sat down with Dan, I said, ‘Hey, you own the team. We can work with him and do some things. But we haven’t seen anything on tape that warrants giving [up] this type of compensation.’ To me, it was absolutely crazy. But I told Dan that if that’s what he wanted to do, I’d make it work.”

 

What I find fascinating is that the guy in charge of football operations didn't have the balls at the time to tell Dan that RG3 is not proven and not worth wasting all those picks on and I won't do it or else I quit. He just went along with Dan's wishes. That to me is pretty stupid. Who was the real coach then? So, how would you psychoanalyze Shanny as to why he didn't do anything? I think picking Kirk was his way of telling Dan screw you I got my guy. No?

 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

@zskins Don’t even go there bro.  There is no putting two and two together with Cali.  That’s what makes me lazy and generic.  

 

@Califan007 I’ll just say this because I’m half asleep after all that, since when have you ever been overly analytical on folks that praise Dan and Bruce?  I’ll wait. 

 

You like to think you’re the reasonable one with a clear view but many of us know better.  It’s all good, enjoy your weekend. 

 

p.s. I know your only going to say my response is lazy.  It is.  I just don’t have the energy or really any motivation to continue.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

2 minutes ago, zskins said:

@Califan007

 

I know you are responding to SIP in the post above but I wanted to get your thought on what Shanny said after leaving the Skins:

 

“Dan knew I wasn’t very happy about what we did, but he wanted everybody to celebrate how smart we were, so we jumped on his plane and met the other owners on his yacht,” Mike Shanahan recalled. “Everyone was celebrating. I just didn’t think it was very smart to give up that much for a guy who we didn’t even know if he could drop back and throw.

“When I finally sat down with Dan, I said, ‘Hey, you own the team. We can work with him and do some things. But we haven’t seen anything on tape that warrants giving [up] this type of compensation.’ To me, it was absolutely crazy. But I told Dan that if that’s what he wanted to do, I’d make it work.”

 

What I find fascinating is that the guy in charge of football operations didn't have the balls at the time to tell Dan that RG3 is not proven and not worth wasting all those picks on. So, how would you psychoanalyze Shanny as to why he didn't do anything? I think picking Kirk was his way of telling Dan screw you I got my guy. No?

 

I was actually responding to BFS, not SiP (I had to recheck lol...I thought "Wait...who was I responding to again?). But to answer your question, the short answer is:

 

Shanahan is as self-serving a mf'er as I've ever seen in the NFL, so it's difficult for me to take him at his word when it contradicts earlier statements he's made.

 

I commented in the past about how Shanahan seemingly flat-out lied about Doc Andrews and RG3, telling two different stories on two different occasions about Andrews giving Griffin clearance to play, to the point that Doc Andrews ended up texting a reporter that Shanahan's latest comments weren't true and that he never said what Shanny was claiming he said. I also commented in the past about how Shanahan's interviews after being fired by the Skins all seemed to follow a pattern: he wanted the moves that turned out well, Snyder and Allen wanted the moves that turned out crappy lol. For awhile there the tone of his statements could be summarized as "If only Allen and Snyder had let me do what I wanted to do instead of forcing me to make moves they wanted, the Skins would have been a much better team." Seriously, I don't remember him owning up to a single bad decision...maybe signing Beck? I dunno...don't think anyone asked him about Beck at that point lol... Lastly, I've commented in the past about how Shanahan's actions during his time here seem to undercut the idea that he was constantly forced into moves and decisions he really didn't want to do or make.

 

So, yeah, the guy doesn't exactly give me a reason to take him at his word, especially when those words contradict his earlier words and seem to deflect his errors to being the result of others even though his earlier words were about him having complete control over those decisions.

 

Drafting Cousins? I think he truly loved Cousins and once he fell into the 4th round thought "**** it, I'm going deep" lol...don't think for a moment it was his way of saying screw you to Snyder. Here's a question that rarely, if ever, gets asked or discussed: if Snyder/Allen were forceful enough to get Shanny to go against what he wanted to do either in terms of player drafted or picks used (or both), would they have also been forceful enough to tell Shanahan the Skins will not draft another QB that same year? The argument they would have used--some even said it had validity at the time--was that you don't want to create unnecessary drama and undercut the player you just spent a ****load of draft capital on. So wouldn't they have had that discussion with Shanahan ahead of time?...And if Shanahan actually said "screw you" and drafted Cousins, wouldn't he have said "screw you" earlier as well about Griffin? Something to think about anyway.

[Skinsinparadise]

For me with Dan and Bruce but more so with Dan -- the running narrative for me is could it be possible that some of the narratives are wrong or they are hyperbole?  Sure, why not?   I have not seen for example any narrative that disputes that going to get McNabb wasn't Dan's baby.  That all points his way.  As for RG3, yeah competing narratives exist none of them which don't show Dan all in -- but question is who drove that one Shanny or Dan or was it both?  But the thing is about Dan its just the volume of things -- just too many things cooking that lead to a narrative that lends to something like this:

 

A.  Either he is terrible at hiring people -- he hires incompetent people who lie and have an odd evil streak about them that never manifested previously.

 

or

 

B.  Dan is the problem.  He is the common denominator.

 

Now to me the obvious answer is B.  But heck if some want to argue A than how does Dan come out on top?  Either he is incompetent at hiring people or his own incompetence and questionalbe behavior impinges on his hires.  There is no winning answer for Dan.

 

We've had:

Dan versus Norv

Dan versus Brad Johnson

Dan versus L. Arrington

Dan versus Marty

Dan versus Shanny

Dan versus Zorn.

Dan/Cerrato involved with Portis versus Zorn.

Dan involved with RG3 versus Shanny

Cerrato versus Zorn

Cerrato versus Marty

Bruce versus Kirk

Bruce versus Scot

 

Dan pals with Arrington, Portis, RG3.  All ending with friction with the coaching staffs.  And yeah maybe we can say maybe a narrative or two is wrong on some of this but all of it?  

 

If people want to make the case that we haven't heard of Dan being pals with anyone on the current roster -- yeah that's true. He's been relatively quiet.  The douche like stuff seems to be Bruce's gig now.   My take on Dan right now is he still has the same losing FO structure and the FO still comes off douche like -- I do think a Schaffer and Kyle Smith reboot might fix all of that.  My hope is that Dan has changed and its just an odd coincidence that Bruce's douche like behavior happens to come off like old school Dan -- and once he's removed from the equation -- all will be improved.  I truly think there is a chance it happens but i am not counting my chickens when they are in the throes of all of this.

[goskins10]

8 minutes ago, zskins said:

@Califan007

 

I know you are responding to SIP in the post above but I wanted to get your thought on what Shanny said after leaving the Skins:

 

“Dan knew I wasn’t very happy about what we did, but he wanted everybody to celebrate how smart we were, so we jumped on his plane and met the other owners on his yacht,” Mike Shanahan recalled. “Everyone was celebrating. I just didn’t think it was very smart to give up that much for a guy who we didn’t even know if he could drop back and throw.

“When I finally sat down with Dan, I said, ‘Hey, you own the team. We can work with him and do some things. But we haven’t seen anything on tape that warrants giving [up] this type of compensation.’ To me, it was absolutely crazy. But I told Dan that if that’s what he wanted to do, I’d make it work.”

 

What I find fascinating is that the guy in charge of football operations didn't have the balls at the time to tell Dan that RG3 is not proven and not worth wasting all those picks on and I won't do it or else I quit. He just went along with Dan's wishes. That to me is pretty stupid. Who was the real coach then? So, how would you psychoanalyze Shanny as to why he didn't do anything? I think picking Kirk was his way of telling Dan screw you I got my guy. No?

 

 

 

You didn't ask me but I am going to answer anyway..  :-)  

 

I have no idea what to believe from shanny as for his words. He was all over the place. In the end I look at actions more than words: 

 

1. After spending 2 yrs building the team, he had to basically create a new offense for Robert. To me it does not make sense to beat the drum for someone you have to change your entire approach to offense - one that you have had a lot of success with in other places. 

 

2. He drafted Cousins anyway. If Robert had been his target all along, if he thoguht Robert was "the" answer, why would he take another QB? I think it was a combination of a **** you to Snyder but also insurance as he was fairly certain Robert would be a bust. 

 

3. He did not protect Robert from himself. That is his job. Yet he let Robert stay in games he should not have been in - not the least of which is the Seattle game. To me that was him saying - "go ahead get yourself hurt so I can stop having to deal with you." and so he could be "right". 

 

4. He so easily gave up at 3-6. He said we will see who wants to be here - but it was not to motivate them for the rest of the season that he saw lost. He said it looking towards next season. If Robert was his guy and he banged the drum for him he would not have thrown in the towel so quickly - when there was clearly still a chance to win the division. 

 

5. He almost quit after the 2012 season even though the team went to the POs. 

 

6. He benched Robert the last 4 gms of 2013 as a final middle finger to Snyder. 

 

I am not defending Shanny here. I think the guy is a first class POs. I also do not think Snyder came down and said - here is the trade, you WILL make it. What I think happened is dan got excited about Robert. He had many conversations trying to talk Shanny into it. He finally wore him down and made it happen. In terms of negatives, for me that';s worse for Shanny than Dan to be honest. Means he did not have the guts to stand up to the man and just say - "NO! I told you I would build you a winner but you have to let me do it." 

 

Just one mans opinion. 

 

1 hour ago, HardcoreZorn said:

Some of Dan’s biggest detractors even admit the roster is the best its been in Dan’s tenure maybe ever or since Gibbs II who knew what he was doing. So what happened? Dumb luck? We miraculously went from trading early to mid round picks for TJ Ducketts to now landing pro bowl caliber right tackles in the 3rd round? We actually started signing our own to long term deals and rewarded them for their services instead of letting them fly out the door like Pierce and Clark? We just stumbled into 11 (now 10) draft picks in 2019 instead of the usual 4-5 we used to go into draft weekend with? 

 

I get it hasn’t lead to sustainable success yet but it takes years to reverse a culture as poor as it used to be around here. And what I described above isn’t going from REALLY bad to just bad. It’s gone from REALLY bad to good. This is how teams who experience long term success operate, what we are doing right now.

 

It’s OK to admit that without thinking Snyder hasn’t also been terrible in the past. The sun will come up tomorrow. 

 

Since I am one of those people, I will answer that one. There is a difference between getting better and being good. Has he improved as a owner? From a football standpoint, sure. How much? That is a different conversation. One PO appearance and a few non-disastrous seasons does not mean he has turned some mythical corner. It means he is not as bad. For myself, I still do not like the person - and that will forever affect how I think of him as owner. Others can separate the two. That's fine, well within your rights. But I personally have a hard time thinking positively about someone for one part of what they do when i know they are a POS in other ways. But I that does not mean if the team has some success I will be on the - they did it all despite him. He has to get some of the credit - he does own the team.

 

I do not have the same feelings for Bruce as I do not have any first hand knowledge of him being a douche outside of the Kirk handling. But to be fair, there was so much going on behind the scenes - it's hard to tell. I still believe Kirk wanted to be here until Bruce gave them a low offer the last off-season then promised to give a better offer and never really did. My point is that a successful season or two could wipe out as least a good portion of my dislike for Bruce. I have already mentioned in other posts that I credit him for changing the CAP culture and he has had several good drafts on his own and with others in the building. 

 

I like this roster, a lot! But they have not played a down yet. I have liked other rosters we have had, only to have them implode is a cloud of dust. Let's see what happens on the field. Then we can have a better discussion. 

 

A bonus tidbit - I was not thrilled when they announced Doug was taking a bigger role. But I have to say the results since he has been here, and especially this past draft suggest he has had a very positive influence. I hope that is not coincidence. 

 

[carex]

I think around that time there had been more than a few backup QBs traded based on potential or brief play, plus the Skins only had Grossman besides RG3 so another QB was useful

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

Some of Dan’s biggest detractors even admit the roster is the best its been in Dan’s tenure maybe ever or since Gibbs II who knew what he was doing. So what happened? Dumb luck? We miraculously went from trading early to mid round picks for TJ Ducketts to now landing pro bowl caliber right tackles in the 3rd round? We actually started signing our own to long term deals and rewarded them for their services instead of letting them fly out the door like Pierce and Clark? We just stumbled into 11 (now 10) draft picks in 2019 instead of the usual 4-5 we used to go into draft weekend with? 

 

I get it hasn’t lead to sustainable success yet but it takes years to reverse a culture as poor as it used to be around here. And what I described above isn’t going from REALLY bad to just bad. It’s gone from REALLY bad to good. This is how teams who experience long term success operate, what we are doing right now.

 

It’s OK to admit that without thinking Snyder hasn’t also been terrible in the past. The sun will come up tomorrow. 

 

I'll say this you are consistent with how really good this roster is.  And based on what beat guys say the FO guys think just like you do that they really really got it cooking and they are poised to have a big year.  Hope they are right.  I just got no idea myself one way or another.   Should be an interesting year.   I am not with you on the comp picks considering context but I agree with that point if we purely talking in a vacuum as if they stumbled into like the way you put it.   But in the scheme of things I don't care or will nitpick about how the sausage is made if it tastes good.  So if they have a big season for a change then yeah they all deserve some vindication -- I'd agree with that.  I am just not handing in the grade before I see the semester play out -- no matter what I project. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

35 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

A.  Either he is terrible at hiring people -- he hires incompetent people who lie and have an odd evil streak about them that never manifested previously.

 

or

 

B.  Dan is the problem.  He is the common denominator.

 

 

 

Um, that kind of makes the argument that it's both, doesn't it? lol...besides, they aren't exactly mutually exclusive.

 

 

35 minutes ago, carex said:

I think around that time there had been more than a few backup QBs traded based on potential or brief play, plus the Skins only had Grossman besides RG3 so another QB was useful

 

That was my argument at the time as to why I thought drafting Cousins was a great move. I mean, we had a broken-down McNabb, Rex Grossman and John stinkin' Beck as our QB unit lol...jeebus. I thought we immediately made our QB unit into a strength by drafting both Griffin and Cousins. Didn't require a vengeful streak on Shanahan's part to make that move.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

Um, that kind of makes the argument that it's both, doesn't it? lol...besides, they aren't exactly mutually exclusive.

 

Could be both -- its not necessarily both.  But I won't quibble with the idea that he's bad on both fronts.  He's made though some good hires so if I had to pick a side I'd say he's been the issue much more so then choosing the wrong people at least in regards to head coaches.  As for selecting people to head personnel -- I think Dan has been mostly a train wreck on that front. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

54 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

You didn't ask me but I am going to answer anyway..  :-)  

 

I have no idea what to believe from shanny as for his words. He was all over the place. In the end I look at actions more than words: 

 

1. After spending 2 yrs building the team, he had to basically create a new offense for Robert. To me it does not make sense to beat the drum for someone you have to change your entire approach to offense - one that you have had a lot of success with in other places. 

 

2. He drafted Cousins anyway. If Robert had been his target all along, if he thoguht Robert was "the" answer, why would he take another QB? I think it was a combination of a **** you to Snyder but also insurance as he was fairly certain Robert would be a bust. 

 

3. He did not protect Robert from himself. That is his job. Yet he let Robert stay in games he should not have been in - not the least of which is the Seattle game. To me that was him saying - "go ahead get yourself hurt so I can stop having to deal with you." and so he could be "right". 

 

4. He so easily gave up at 3-6. He said we will see who wants to be here - but it was not to motivate them for the rest of the season that he saw lost. He said it looking towards next season. If Robert was his guy and he banged the drum for him he would not have thrown in the towel so quickly - when there was clearly still a chance to win the division. 

 

5. He almost quit after the 2012 season even though the team went to the POs. 

 

6. He benched Robert the last 4 gms of 2013 as a final middle finger to Snyder.

 

 

My thoughts:

 

1) The new offense turned out to be one that was adopted around the league in different forms. I think Shanahan (both of 'em) are incredibly talented offensive minds who understood the validity of their new offense. Also, everyone wanted Griffin so not sure if that was any "banging the drum" for him needed.

 

2) @carex and I touched on this above.

 

3) He didn't protect Terrell Davis from himself while in Denver, either. Remember that clip from some game (probably the Super Bowl lol) where Davis had migraines so bad (I think from getting his bell rung in the game) he told Shanahan on the sideline that he couldn't even see? Shanahan was like "If you don't go in for the next play they'll know we're passing. You don't have to do anything but be a decoy."...Davis said something like "Coach, I can't even see."

 

He put him back in. That was alarming, he didn't really care that Davis may have been concussed to the point that his vision was effected, he just wanted the win. Not about to assume Shanahan purposefully wanted Griffin to get further injured. By the way, Cousins had said that Griffin wanted to be back in the game and Shanahan wanted him to sit and that they had some intense discussions about it during the playoff game. 

 

4) Again, didn't have to "bang the drum" and Griffin was everyone's guy lol...

 

5) Says more about Shanahan's character than anything else imo...

 

6) He asked Snyder beforehand if he was ok with benching Griffin, so highly doubt it was a middle finger...especially since it was reported that Snyder said how he felt about it didn't matter, Mike was the coach.

[carex]

39 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

You didn't ask me but I am going to answer anyway..  :-)  

 

I have no idea what to believe from shanny as for his words. He was all over the place. In the end I look at actions more than words: 

 

1. After spending 2 yrs building the team, he had to basically create a new offense for Robert. To me it does not make sense to beat the drum for someone you have to change your entire approach to offense - one that you have had a lot of success with in other places. 

 

2. He drafted Cousins anyway. If Robert had been his target all along, if he thoguht Robert was "the" answer, why would he take another QB? I think it was a combination of a **** you to Snyder but also insurance as he was fairly certain Robert would be a bust. 

 

3. He did not protect Robert from himself. That is his job. Yet he let Robert stay in games he should not have been in - not the least of which is the Seattle game. To me that was him saying - "go ahead get yourself hurt so I can stop having to deal with you." and so he could be "right". 

 

4. He so easily gave up at 3-6. He said we will see who wants to be here - but it was not to motivate them for the rest of the season that he saw lost. He said it looking towards next season. If Robert was his guy and he banged the drum for him he would not have thrown in the towel so quickly - when there was clearly still a chance to win the division. 

 

5. He almost quit after the 2012 season even though the team went to the POs. 

 

6. He benched Robert the last 4 gms of 2013 as a final middle finger to Snyder. 

 

I am not defending Shanny here. I think the guy is a first class POs. I also do not think Snyder came down and said - here is the trade, you WILL make it. What I think happened is dan got excited about Robert. He had many conversations trying to talk Shanny into it. He finally wore him down and made it happen. In terms of negatives, for me that';s worse for Shanny than Dan to be honest. Means he did not have the guts to stand up to the man and just say - "NO! I told you I would build you a winner but you have to let me do it." 

 

Just one mans opinion.

 

 

I think Shanny turned on him when Griffin ignored his declaration the season was over and basically was just going to let him take the consequences.  If he wanted to undermine the coach and be the hero fine but if he got hurt playong when he shouldn't that wasn't the coach's problem.  And going into that season Shanny hadn't built much.  The Skins needed a new QB with two failures, two new WRs, Alfred Morris basically completely replaced the RBs he had already acquired and multiple OL

 

7 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

Um, that kind of makes the argument that it's both, doesn't it? lol...besides, they aren't exactly mutually exclusive.

 

 

 

That was my argument at the time as to why I thought drafting Cousins was a great move. I mean, we had a broken-down McNabb, Rex Grossman and John stinkin' Beck as our QB unit lol...jeebus. I thought we immediately made our QB unit into a strength by drafting both Griffin and Cousins.

 

actually just Grossman and Beck, McNabb was one and done in DC and the Skins just went with two QB the year before RG3

[Califan007 The Constipated]

 

1 minute ago, carex said:

actually just Grossman and Beck, McNabb was one and done in DC and the Skins just went with two QB the year before RG3

 

 

Hmm..I'm not sure if that made the QB unit better or worse, then lol...

[goskins10]

6 minutes ago, Califan007 said:

 

My thoughts:

 

1) The new offense turned out to be one that was adopted around the league in different forms. I think Shanahan (both of 'em) are incredibly talented offensive minds who understood the validity of their new offense. Also, everyone wanted Griffin so not sure if that was any "banging the drum" for him needed.

 

2) @carex and I touched on this above.

 

3) He didn't protect Terrell Davis from himself while in Denver, either. Remember that clip from some game (probably the Super Bowl lol) where Davis had migraines so bad (I think from getting his bell rung in the game) he told Shanahan on the sideline that he couldn't even see? Shanahan was like "If you don't go in for the next play they'll know we're passing. You don't have to do anything but be a decoy."...Davis said something like "Coach, I can't even see."

 

He put him back in. That was alarming, he didn't really care that Davis may have been concussed to the point that his vision was effected, he just wanted the win. Not about to assume Shanahan purposefully wanted Griffin to get further injured. By the way, Cousins had said that Griffin wanted to be back in the game and Shanahan wanted him to sit and that they had some intense discussions about it during the playoff game. 

 

4) Again, didn't have to "bang the drum" and Griffin was everyone's guy lol...

 

5) Says more about Shanahan's character than anything else imo...

 

6) He asked Snyder beforehand if he was ok with benching Griffin, so highly doubt it was a middle finger...especially since it was reported that Snyder said how he felt about it didn't matter, Mike was the coach.

 

I believe I did say that I  thought MS was a POS>

 

1 and 2 together just for argument sake - I agree they are good offensive minds. Let's go with the idea. Why draft a QB as a back-up that has much more prototypical QB skills that requires you run a traditional offense? So yes, people were drafting and then trading QBs. But if you want to put in a new offense and you are really want a QB that has the right skill set for that offense because you think it can be really successful, why draft a back-up that is a total opposite? There were other options both in free agency and the draft that would have been better to keep running this new offense.

 

3. A RB and a QB are two different things. Again, I am not disagreeing that MS is a POS. But you can get RBs a dime a dozen. He proved he could put most any RB in his offense and they could get yards. But you can't do that with QBs. So again if he has a QB that he wants to run this new great offense, why risk him? Why not protect the investment? It makes no sense.

 

4. Totally missing the point here. The point is if Robert were truly "his" guy or everyone's guy, why just throw it in so easily? It goes to needing to be right.

 

5. Again, I said he is a douche. But it also suggests he was fed up with either being forced or at least coerced by Dan to draft Robert. It's a fact he did not like the relationship Dan had with Robert. Would that happen if he was really "his" guy?

 

6. Did he really ask of tell him? You can ask in a way that's telling him. Again, MS is a douche. I could totally see him playing it like he asked Dan when he was really just telling him.

 

I will say that I think he has taken a step back in terms of interfering with the personnel discussions and the day to day details. That appeared to start in earnest with Joe Gibbs II. However, I can see a logical path to Dan at the very least strongly suggesting they make the trade and that MS resented it through his actions. Maybe he didn't.

 

At this point I really honestly don't care. Was just answering a question posed by someone. Dan Snyder is a total POS of a person and I have first hand accounts and proof to support that. So Ok, he is a little bit better football owner than he was. He is still a POS and that will not change no matter how well the team does. 

[zCommander]

2 hours ago, Califan007 said:

 

I was actually responding to BFS, not SiP (I had to recheck lol...I thought "Wait...who was I responding to again?). But to answer your question, the short answer is:

 

Shanahan is as self-serving a mf'er as I've ever seen in the NFL, so it's difficult for me to take him at his word when it contradicts earlier statements he's made.

 

 

Ooopss.... lol I had to go back up. I was reading SIP maybe it was just subliminal and stuck in my head. I was wondering why you were beefing with SIP....lol

 

Yeah that has bothered me for a long time. You are a winning SB coach and Dan is NOT. Wouldn't you have more of a say over Dan? I know he is your boss but you are the one who knows how to put together a SB winning team. As for Kirk; even if he fell to the 4th they didn't have to take him after getting RG3. There was no point. It shocked not only the fans but other people and sports analysts around the league as well. I wouldn't be surprised Dan and Allen weren't butt hurt because of that. I believe not putting Kirk in sooner was blocked by the FO. I try to look for logic in human behaviors (even though it is hard to find). Maybe I am over analyzing...lol But egos were hurt and stepped on in 2012 draft. 

2 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

@zskins Don’t even go there bro.  There is no putting two and two together with Cali.  That’s what makes me lazy and generic.  

 

 

Lol... I have no issue with Cali. I respect his views. 

 

You just need to get your lazy butt moving more then.  

[HardcoreZorn]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I'll say this you are consistent with how really good this roster is.  And based on what beat guys say the FO guys think just like you do that they really really got it cooking and they are poised to have a big year.  Hope they are right.  I just got no idea myself one way or another.   Should be an interesting year.   I am not with you on the comp picks considering context but I agree with that point if we purely talking in a vacuum as if they stumbled into like the way you put it.   But in the scheme of things I don't care or will nitpick about how the sausage is made if it tastes good.  So if they have a big season for a change then yeah they all deserve some vindication -- I'd agree with that.  I am just not handing in the grade before I see the semester play out -- no matter what I project. 

I truly think this is at the very least a top ten roster in the NFL. The lines will presumably be strengths, a quality that the best teams in this league have. We have a top ten tandem at OLB. We have at the very least a good competent quarterback. Very deep in the pass catchers department. I know you beat the “if Reed’s out we will be so so drum” but I don’t see it that way, at all. The game plan certainly shifts since Reed is a special talent at the position, so not at all saying his impact isn’t large. But Vernon Davis would be starting on a lot of teams at TE around the league, and with Thompson and Crowder there are still some really good additional targets underneath. Add the potential of Doctson and Richardson and that’s a pretty substantial list of guys you have to stop from an opposing point POV. We have a guy that we are both super bullish on in Guice. I think he’s going to be a star. In the secondary you have two guys that are very good at their positions in Swearinger and Norman. At FS we may have a guy who is up there for best raw talent on the team and is somebody I am extremely excited about in Nicholson because that dude can ball. Behind Norman, we certainly have some questions, albeit players with potential. But what team doesn’t have at least some question mark? We have a couple, but that’s pretty standard I think if you look around the league. 

 

As @goskins10 said, you have to see it come together first. Would I be shocked to see 8-8? Honestly nothing surprises me with the Skins anymore so no. But I can rally behind the idea that 7-9 plus getting everybody back from injury, plus adding impact RB and another impact DL, plus expected jump from a really talented draft class last year is enough to win 10-11 games. I think we saw a future glimpse of the Redskins going forward specifically in those Raiders/Chiefs games last year. It wasn’t about the result of the game because we dominated in one and barely lost in the other. It was how we played. We were smacking the hell out of people on defense. Smothering up front in terms of pressure. Hell, we even went into a REALLY good New Orleans’ team house and surprised the hell out of them until Thompson went down and the wheels came off. And the reason you probably don’t remember hearing that or thinking that in recent memory is because that wasn’t the case with our roster. You are finally seeing the fruitful results of retaining a coaching staff with the same systems in place and utilizing the draft as the pipeline of the organization. Scott said it would happen. Well here it is in my opinion. This team gave the Eagles some challenges last year. I truly believe it will be an Eagles/Redskins show down. I could be entirely wrong and look silly 5 months from now. But that’s my gut and sticking with it. For the record, I haven’t said that we will win 10+ games in years so I’m not one of those fans that says this every off season. I know my posting history reflects a glass half full approach, but in years past I would say 8-8 at best. The early portion of last year pre-injury I saw something really good. They weren’t quite there but with a little push they looked like they could play and beat anybody. And I expect to see that this season (as long as every Tom dick and Larry on the squad don’t go down to injury). 

[goskins10]

11 hours ago, carex said:

 

I think Shanny turned on him when Griffin ignored his declaration the season was over and basically was just going to let him take the consequences.  If he wanted to undermine the coach and be the hero fine but if he got hurt playong when he shouldn't that wasn't the coach's problem.  And going into that season Shanny hadn't built much.  The Skins needed a new QB with two failures, two new WRs, Alfred Morris basically completely replaced the RBs he had already acquired and multiple OL

 

 

actually just Grossman and Beck, McNabb was one and done in DC and the Skins just went with two QB the year before RG3

 

He had in fact spent 2 years turning the roster over into players he wanted. And since we have all heard the montra that it takes years to turn over a roster - the current reason for Bruce taking 9 yrs - then 2 yrs is barely time to build much of anything. I do agree 2 yrs is no where near long enough. I also agree 9 yrs is entirely too long. But it looks like the roster is finally getting there. Let's hope they stay healthy and we have a good year. Despite being accused of the opposite with backhanded broad comments from some of Dan's biggest cheerleaders, those of us who are not ready to jump on the Dan is great band wagon are not rooting for the team to fail. I want this team to win 19 gms (at least get to and win the 19th game) just as much as anyone else. That does not mean we cannot be critical of the process and the steps taken. Seen this movie too many times to buy into the "this year it's different!" At least not yet. Being a sucker for a happy ending I will probably get there by September - especially if our rooks look good in PS. 

 

The statement: "Shanny turned on him when Griffin ignored his declaration the season was over" makes zero sense." You are saying that when shanny threw in the towel, he wanted his star player - the one you believe he coveted and fought to get, that everyone in the building wanted - he wanted him to shut down and give up too???  That when Robert took a leadership role and led the team to 7 wins to get the POs, that's when he turned on him? You can't possibly really believe that.

 

 

The rest is not directed solely at you - just building off the initial comment to a broader group: 

 

The entire thing is much more nuanced than people are trying to make it. Was Dan 100% responsible? Did he demand Shanny trade for Robert? I seriously doubt it. Why have a HC at all? On the other side, was Shanny super excited to trade for Robert and convinced Dan and the rest of the FO it was the best move? Lose 2 firsts and a second for a QB he has to install a new offense for when there was one he already liked that he could get without trading up for and he does not have to change his offense, just add a new wrinkle? That also makes no sense. How much better could 2013 looked with 2 solid starters on the team from a 2012 2nd and a 2013 1st? Not saying the Redskins take those exact players - but imagine how much better the Defense would have been with Janoris Jenkins and Desmond Trufant in the backfield. It is somewhere in between. 

 

I believe - and can follow a logical path - that Dan and Bruce along with some of the scouts really liked Robert. After much discussion, Shanny reluctantly agreed to the deal taking Cousins as insurance. He played along until he got to know Robert and Dan started playing Jerry Buss to Robert's Magic (I believe this happened much earlier than game 9), causing a lot of drama in the locker room and undermining his authority as HC. As time went on shanny became more and more resentful also wishing he had stood his ground - cowards always do that after the fact. But instead of standing up like a man he didn't protect Robert or the franchise as he was heading towards leaving the team. 

 

In the end - they are both responsible. They were both running the team. The idea that either were just innocent bystanders just makes no sense. 

 

Bringing this back to Dan - I personally think this entire thread was premature, although it's been a great source of entertainment. A few winning seasons and a few deep PO runs, then we can start really making the case that the team is really turned a corner and therefore he is a better football owner. Still a douche as a person but a better owner in terms of football. But a few signs of improvement that have led to a few average seasons and a PO appearance, could also be in spite of him, not because of him. Too early to tell. 

[Skinsinparadise]

10 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

I truly think this is at the very least a top ten roster in the NFL. 

 

If healthy maybe.  I'd probably go in the 12-13 range. 

 

10 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

The lines will presumably be strengths, a quality that the best teams in this league have.

 

Presume is the operative word for me. Lauvao I saw on PFF scale was the 2nd worst pass blocker in the NFL last year.  I just a metric that they averaged 2.8 YPA from the LG spot on the ground last year, 4.1 via RG.  Roullier wasn't ranked hot by PFF -- and agree PFF isn't the be all and end all.  Moses and Trent and Scherff are bonafide very good.

 

10 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

We have a top ten tandem at OLB.

 

Not all agree on this point but I agree.  I am more of a Preston Smith guy than most.  I worry about depth though.  Rewatching some games on coaches tape, they did like to rotate the backups in.  Galette looked good in flashes, Ryan Anderson not at all.  I do like McPhee if he can still healthy.  Ryan I'll give a pass and hope he rebounds this year.

 

10 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

IVery deep in the pass catchers department. I know you beat the “if Reed’s out we will be so so drum” but I don’t see it that way, at all. The game plan certainly shifts since Reed is a special talent at the position, so not at all saying his impact isn’t large.

 

I was a big Doctson guy before we drafted him.  I haven't given up on him now.  I just need to see it happen for me to count my chickens with him.  I was also the guy pounding the table for Richardson in the FA thread before we signed him.   But neither guy has proven to be a ground breaking type of receiver scare the heck out of defenses type of guy.  Jordan Reed on the other hand is a super star.  The only bonafide receiver superstar.  The Giants for example have Beckham AND Engram -- sort of the emerging young-healthy version of Reed.   We need IMO at least one superstar who scares the heck out of defenses.  I am one of the higher people on both Doctson and Richardson but to me they both need to emerge versus us thinking they are slam dunk.  I like Crowder but I don't think he's scary to defenses -- he's good though.

 

10 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

 But Vernon Davis would be starting on a lot of teams at TE around the league,

 

I like Vernon Davis but IMO he's not even in the ball park of Jordan Reed.  Jordan Reed to me is crazy good.  It's a big deal when he plays and a big deal if he doesn't play.

 

10 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

 We have a guy that we are both super bullish on in Guice. I think he’s going to be a star. 

 

If they have the big year you think they will.  to me a big part of it will be Guice and a healthy Jordan Reed.

10 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

I In the secondary you have two guys that are very good at their positions in Swearinger and Norman. At FS we may have a guy who is up there for best raw talent on the team and is somebody I am extremely excited about in Nicholson because that dude can ball. Behind Norman, we certainly have some questions, albeit players with potential. But what team doesn’t have at least some question mark? We have a couple, but that’s pretty standard I think if you look around the league. 

 

 

I like Nicholson if he can stay healthy.  Swearinger and Norman, too.  Otherwise, IMO they had an opportunity to shore up the secondary in FA and blew it.  I am not the only one who thinks they had another mediocre at best FA crop.   I agree with Finlay's take of their FA approach this year and that is it feels arrogant.  I hope the FO ends up right thought.  I liked the McPhee and Richardson signing.  But trading Fuller and letting Breeland go and replacing them with a 31 year old injury prone CB with bad PFF rating -- meh.  Secondary is questionable and I don't give them an out like hey you can't do everything.  And my expectations weren't that high to meet -- heck if all they did was sign DRC instead of Scandrick, I'd have been cool. 

 

10 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

  I think we saw a future glimpse of the Redskins going forward specifically in those Raiders/Chiefs games last year. It wasn’t about the result of the game because we dominated in one and barely lost in the other. 

 

Delving into your post to goskins a little.  I get the enthusiasm but don't we often have a small sample like that every season?  A big win followed by a tease loss?  In 2016 it was the GB win (much bigger IMO ten beating the lowly 6-10 Raiders -- we just thought the Raiders were good at that point) with a tease close but no cigar loss in Dallas.   I was at the NO game and the offense was really good.  But the defense I just had a feeling would blow it because they didn't really feel clutch all season -- including the KC game you mention. 

 

10 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

And the reason you probably don’t remember hearing that or thinking that in recent memory is because that wasn’t the case with our roster. You are finally seeing the fruitful results of retaining a coaching staff with the same systems in place and utilizing the draft as the pipeline of the organization. Scott said it would happen. 

 

I agree with the general idea of keep drafting well and ultimately good things happens.  I have just been teased so much by the team that I am not banking on that alone.  Heck no team accrues picks and drafts more than the Browns.  So you have to draft well, too.  And its tough to judge a draft in theory -- in theory almost every team's fan base loves their drafts before the season.  Things need to play out.  My opinion on many players they've drafted have changed for better and worse after a couple of seasons.

 

10 hours ago, HardcoreZorn said:

IThe early portion of last year pre-injury I saw something really good. They weren’t quite there but with a little push they looked like they could play and beat anybody. And I expect to see that this season (as long as every Tom dick and Larry on the squad don’t go down to injury). 

 

If I recall I think it was Ross Tucker who said this about the current Redskins.  The hard thing about that team compared to some others is that some of their key players are oft-injured so you almost always have to do a what if take about the team.  What if this and what if that?  Every tam has that dynamic but the Redskins have it more than most.

 

The Redskins if I recall were one of the most injured teams in 2016, too.  The three FAs we signed are oft-injured guys.  Reed is oft-injured.  Thompson oft injured in college -- oft-injured in the pros.  Nicholson banged up in college, banged up in his first season.   

 

Not saying you are saying this but some seem to think that the law of averages kicks in for injuries -- so a team that is ravaged by injuries one year is going to have good luck the next.  But its often the reverse where guys coming off injury are typically more prone not less prone to get injured again and or not be 100% coming off of them the next year. 

 

For this reason, I am not a half glass full or half empty guy.  I am a total lets see what happen and it won't shock me if the season went in either direction.  Buy I do agree with your general vibe of optimism about drafting young players -- that's how you build a good team, etc.  

[carex]

2 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

He had in fact spent 2 years turning the roster over into players he wanted. And since we have all heard the montra that it takes years to turn over a roster - the current reason for Bruce taking 9 yrs - then 2 yrs is barely time to build much of anything. I do agree 2 yrs is no where near long enough. I also agree 9 yrs is entirely too long. But it looks like the roster is finally getting there. Let's hope they stay healthy and we have a good year. Despite being accused of the opposite with backhanded broad comments from some of Dan's biggest cheerleaders, those of us who are not ready to jump on the Dan is great band wagon are not rooting for the team to fail. I want this team to win 19 gms (at least get to and win the 19th game) just as much as anyone else. That does not mean we cannot be critical of the process and the steps taken. Seen this movie too many times to buy into the "this year it's different!" At least not yet. Being a sucker for a happy ending I will probably get there by September - especially if our rooks look good in PS. 

 

The statement: "Shanny turned on him when Griffin ignored his declaration the season was over" makes zero sense." You are saying that when shanny threw in the towel, he wanted his star player - the one you believe he coveted and fought to get, that everyone in the building wanted - he wanted him to shut down and give up too???  That when Robert took a leadership role and led the team to 7 wins to get the POs, that's when he turned on him? You can't possibly really believe that.

 

 

yes I can, because I don't think the coach like being proven wrong like that.  His previous first round QBs had turned out to be nothing special and he was always fairlyh willing to replace them, Griese, Plummer, Cutler.  And there weren't actually that many major pieces gone from the tme he got there to when he got Griffin.  McNabb was already gone, Beck, had failed.  The list is basically Jamal Brown, Ryan Torain and Anthony Armstrong

[goskins10]

12 minutes ago, carex said:

 

yes I can, because I don't think the coach like being proven wrong like that.  His previous first round QBs had turned out to be nothing special and he was always fairlyh willing to replace them, Griese, Plummer, Cutler.  And there weren't actually that many major pieces gone from the tme he got there to when he got Griffin.  McNabb was already gone, Beck, had failed.  The list is basically Jamal Brown, Ryan Torain and Anthony Armstrong

 

While I tend to disagree with you more than agree, I tend to at least find your comments to be rational and enjoy seeing an opposing view. However, I cannot say that here. I am just not following you at all.

 

Let's start with the team turnover: 

By my count, there were exactly 14 players from the 2009 final roster left on the team in 2011. This includes PS, IR and in-actives. It you just look at starters it's less. They were (listed in order of jersey number): Graham Gano, Anthony Armstrong, DeAngelo Hall, LaRon Landry, Byron Westbrook, Reed Doughty, Mike Sellers, Chris Cooley, Rocky McIntosh, London Fletcher, Will Montgomery, Kedric Goldston, Santana Moss, and Brian Orakpo. So to say there were not many major pieces gone is a huge mis-statement. Almost the entire roster had been turned over - not all for the good I agree. But when you turn over 59 of 73 positions, even if all 14 left are starters (which they were not), it's still a huge change of personnel. He was deep in the process of turning the roster over. 

 

Back to the "he was mad because Robert did not lay down." So he didn't want to be wrong about the team being done for the rest of the season or be wrong about Robert? If he is right about one - Robert is the right QB - then him laying down would lead to him being wrong about Robert, he is wrong about the other. If he doesn't lay down then he is wrong about the team. Just not a logical path to follow there. 

 

It makes a lot more sense that he was not thrilled from the start but tried to make it work. Then as the season went on Robert got on his nerves and he wanted him done. He tried to shut them all down hoping that Robert would fail so he could put in Kirk, the QB he wanted from day one. 

 

Let me reiterate, I believe MS to be a total douche himself. His ego is a mile wide and he has never really placed a lot of emphasis on players best interests. But what you're suggesting is not only a big stretch, it defies logic. 

[HardcoreZorn]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

If healthy maybe.  I'd probably go in the 12-13 range. 

Kind of splitting hairs, no? Point stands that it's an above average roster. I don't believe teams just stumble into above average rosters without going about the team building process the correct way, especially in the NFL where there are 53 man rosters. 

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Presume is the operative word for me. Lauvao I saw on PFF scale was the 2nd worst pass blocker in the NFL last year.  I just a metric that they averaged 2.8 YPA from the LG spot on the ground last year, 4.1 via RG.  Roullier wasn't ranked hot by PFF -- and agree PFF isn't the be all and end all.  Moses and Trent and Scherff are bonafide very good.

Lauvao is certainly a weak link, no arguments there from me. But as far as the OL, three of the five are top 5 at their position and another is a young guy with potential who the staff is high on. Still a strength. I've read enough articles about RB's missing holes and leaving yards on the field to be convinced that it was a woeful lack of talent at the RB position that was more responsible than anything for our run game suffering. We should be able to effectively mask the LG position. As for DL which you didn't really touch on, we were rated as one of the best pressure teams in the NFL last year. That was with Allen and Ioan missing large chunks of time. We just added another first round DL, who granted we need to see play first, but I think we can all agree he will most likely be an upgrade over the out of position Ziggy Hood and has the upside to be so much more than that. Another year for Lanier who I'm very high on. Added another young guy with potential in Settle. The DL is absolutely another strength of this football team and part of the reason I'm less worried about the secondary. Both the OL, and DL are lead by some of the best position coaches in the game. Gruden has gone on record that the lines will be strengths and I tend to agree with him. And that's exciting, because we all should know that the game is won up front. 

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Not all agree on this point but I agree.  I am more of a Preston Smith guy than most.  I worry about depth though.  Rewatching some games on coaches tape, they did like to rotate the backups in.  Galette looked good in flashes, Ryan Anderson not at all.  I do like McPhee if he can still healthy.  Ryan I'll give a pass and hope he rebounds this year.

Yeah, and I'm also a big Preston guy. Kerrigan is Kerrigan. And I think you can do a lot worse than McPhee and a second round second year player as depth. Let's see what Ryan does this year. 

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

I was a big Doctson guy before we drafted him.  I haven't given up on him now.  I just need to see it happen for me to count my chickens with him.  I was also the guy pounding the table for Richardson in the FA thread before we signed him.   But neither guy has proven to be a ground breaking type of receiver scare the heck out of defenses type of guy.  Jordan Reed on the other hand is a super star.  The only bonafide receiver superstar.  The Giants for example have Beckham AND Engram -- sort of the emerging young-healthy version of Reed.   We need IMO at least one superstar who scares the heck out of defenses.  I am one of the higher people on both Doctson and Richardson but to me they both need to emerge versus us thinking they are slam dunk.  I like Crowder but I don't think he's scary to defenses -- he's good though.

I'm not really counting any chickens here and have stated numerous times in different threads that there are a lot of ifs. But it's more about the depth of the pass catchers. Not many teams boast a top 5 third down back (Thompson), top 5 TE (Reed), and top 5-10 slot (Crowder). Not many teams have VD as their second TE. And I do think Doctson has the goods and Richardson was what we were missing last year. The fact that I'm not even operating from the POV that the pass catchers will be the strength of team, yet there is that much potential, speaks volumes to me. 

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

I like Vernon Davis but IMO he's not even in the ball park of Jordan Reed.  Jordan Reed to me is crazy good.  It's a big deal when he plays and a big deal if he doesn't play.

No one is in the same ballpark as Reed when healthy, outside of Gronk and Kelce. Miss the part where I talked about his impact?

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

If they have the big year you think they will.  to me a big part of it will be Guice and a healthy Jordan Reed.

Agreed that a productive Guice and healthy Reed will be key. But let's not forget there are 51 other guys on the team and act as if our season rests on just these 2. Also, we went 7-9 with basically no Reed and no Guice last year. I have to think we get more contribution from Reed than we did last year (not hard to do). And I can't imagine a scenario where Guice isn't a massive upgrade to what we had at RB last year. So I guess I kind of see it as inevitable that we get better contributions which should inevitably lead to a better record than 7-9. That's not factoring in any of the other guys we are getting back from injury or other additions we made. 

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I like Nicholson if he can stay healthy.  Swearinger and Norman, too.  Otherwise, IMO they had an opportunity to shore up the secondary in FA and blew it.  I am not the only one who thinks they had another mediocre at best FA crop.   I agree with Finlay's take of their FA approach this year and that is it feels arrogant.  I hope the FO ends up right thought.  I liked the McPhee and Richardson signing.  But trading Fuller and letting Breeland go and replacing them with a 31 year old injury prone CB with bad PFF rating -- meh.  Secondary is questionable and I don't give them an out like hey you can't do everything.  And my expectations weren't that high to meet -- heck if all they did was sign DRC instead of Scandrick, I'd have been cool. 

Why do you never mention Dunbar or Moreau and only Scandrick? That's not painting a very accurate picture of what their plan at CB was to replace Bree and Fuller. Heck Moreau going into this year was Fuller going into last. 3rd round pick that only fell due to injury going into second season. Moreau was a first round talent, just as Fuller was. I don't mind debating with you, but when you misrepresent the situation and then draw a hard line in the sand that if it were DRC>Scandrick we would have suddenly been destined to be much better its kind of a hard position for me to wrap my head around. DRC and Bree are still FA's right now. A week before camp. PFF isn't gospel, especially in the secondary where it's sometimes tough to attribute who was at fault for what. That's if you want to debate Scandrick, but I think Moreau and Dunbar were much more influential in letting Bree and trading Fuller than bringing in Scandrick as you portray. 

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

Delving into your post to goskins a little.  I get the enthusiasm but don't we often have a small sample like that every season?  A big win followed by a tease loss?  In 2016 it was the GB win (much bigger IMO ten beating the lowly 6-10 Raiders -- we just thought the Raiders were good at that point) with a tease close but no cigar loss in Dallas.   I was at the NO game and the offense was really good.  But the defense I just had a feeling would blow it because they didn't really feel clutch all season -- including the KC game you mention. 

Again, we weren't quite there yet. Inconsistency is still present. And no, we have not seen what we saw in those Raiders/Chiefs games in a VERY long time IMO. There were threads popping up on here about how incredible our defense was. 6-10 be damned that was another NFL team. And we made them look literally incompetent. We then almost went into Arrow Head and beat the undefeated Chiefs, and would have if it weren't for Doctson's dropped TD. Had a commanding lead in NO who was 8-2 at the time. Point is, we could play with anybody last year. The FO saw it and believes that with better health and the additions we made that it's enough to win 3-4 more games. I don't think it's that outlandish of a take. 

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

I agree with the general idea of keep drafting well and ultimately good things happens.  I have just been teased so much by the team that I am not banking on that alone.  Heck no team accrues picks and drafts more than the Browns.  So you have to draft well, too.  And its tough to judge a draft in theory -- in theory almost every team's fan base loves their drafts before the season.  Things need to play out.  My opinion on many players they've drafted have changed for better and worse after a couple of seasons.

I think we have been drafting well and don't think it's really even debatable. 

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

If I recall I think it was Ross Tucker who said this about the current Redskins.  The hard thing about that team compared to some others is that some of their key players are oft-injured so you almost always have to do a what if take about the team.  What if this and what if that?  Every tam has that dynamic but the Redskins have it more than most.

 

The Redskins if I recall were one of the most injured teams in 2016, too.  The three FAs we signed are oft-injured guys.  Reed is oft-injured.  Thompson oft injured in college -- oft-injured in the pros.  Nicholson banged up in college, banged up in his first season.   

 

Not saying you are saying this but some seem to think that the law of averages kicks in for injuries -- so a team that is ravaged by injuries one year is going to have good luck the next.  But its often the reverse where guys coming off injury are typically more prone not less prone to get injured again and or not be 100% coming off of them the next year. 

 

For this reason, I am not a half glass full or half empty guy.  I am a total lets see what happen and it won't shock me if the season went in either direction.  Buy I do agree with your general vibe of optimism about drafting young players -- that's how you build a good team, etc.  

Weren't we the most injured NFL team of any since 2002 or something like that lol. I agree that a lot of guys are prone to injury and it wouldn't be prudent to count on all of them for 16 games. But disagree the law of averages won't kick in somewhat for us. I would bet money we are less injured than we were last year where almost everybody was on IR by the end of the season. 

[carex]

3 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

While I tend to disagree with you more than agree, I tend to at least find your comments to be rational and enjoy seeing an opposing view. However, I cannot say that here. I am just not following you at all.

 

Let's start with the team turnover: 

By my count, there were exactly 14 players from the 2009 final roster left on the team in 2011. This includes PS, IR and in-actives. It you just look at starters it's less. They were (listed in order of jersey number): Graham Gano, Anthony Armstrong, DeAngelo Hall, LaRon Landry, Byron Westbrook, Reed Doughty, Mike Sellers, Chris Cooley, Rocky McIntosh, London Fletcher, Will Montgomery, Kedric Goldston, Santana Moss, and Brian Orakpo. So to say there were not many major pieces gone is a huge mis-statement. Almost the entire roster had been turned over - not all for the good I agree. But when you turn over 59 of 73 positions, even if all 14 left are starters (which they were not), it's still a huge change of personnel. He was deep in the process of turning the roster over. 

 

Back to the "he was mad because Robert did not lay down." So he didn't want to be wrong about the team being done for the rest of the season or be wrong about Robert? If he is right about one - Robert is the right QB - then him laying down would lead to him being wrong about Robert, he is wrong about the other. If he doesn't lay down then he is wrong about the team. Just not a logical path to follow there. 

 

It makes a lot more sense that he was not thrilled from the start but tried to make it work. Then as the season went on Robert got on his nerves and he wanted him done. He tried to shut them all down hoping that Robert would fail so he could put in Kirk, the QB he wanted from day one. 

 

Let me reiterate, I believe MS to be a total douche himself. His ego is a mile wide and he has never really placed a lot of emphasis on players best interests. But what you're suggesting is not only a big stretch, it defies logic. 

 

okay, let's clear up my points.  On him being mad at Robert.  That's as simple as not wanting to be shown by the rookie.  It might not be logical, but ego isn't logical and frankly neither was claiming the team would be going into evaluation mode.

 

Now on the roster changes, my point was that Shanny hadn't done much that the arrival of RG3 required changing.  So, toss defensive changes right out.  Then look at changes from the end of 2011 to the beginning of 2012.  They changed no offensive starting OL, their WRs needed to change whoever was playing QB and changing RB(good as Alfred Morris was) was pure luxury, especially since Roy Helu, Evan Royster an Keiland Williams all made the team again