Jay Gruden: Buy, Sell Or HOLD: 2017 edition

[Diehard Otis]

1 hour ago, CaptainChaos47 said:

Thank you! Unless we flashback 5 years and Belichick and Brady become available I'm good with riding Gruden and Cousins ..I'll agree I was a little worried about the three runs and punt but if you throw and miss SF likely wins and Gruden wasn't responsible for the 7 points the officials gave the niners.

I would remind everyone here that Baltimore lost at Home to a 1 Win team! 

 

Oakland lost at Home to the last place Chargers (can't get used to putting LA in front of their name)

 

and Defending Conference Champ Atlanta lost to Miami (playing like crap going into today) at Home!

 

And guys are giving Gruden crap for Winning a tight ballgame against a San Francisco team that has gone toe-to-toe with every team they've met this season.

 

Jay got it done.  At the end of the year, there won't be any "if we had beaten the 9ers" talk.  Unlike the aforementioned "Contenders".

[SWFLSkins]

14 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

We got the ball when they had two timeouts left. Any incomplete would give them an extra 35 seconds. Doesn't matter what down you threw on.

 

I thought it was our better option to get the one first down they needed. 

[Warhead36]

12 minutes ago, Diehard Otis said:

I would remind everyone here that Baltimore lost at Home to a 1 Win team! 

 

Oakland lost at Home to the last place Chargers (can't get used to putting LA in front of their name)

 

and Defending Conference Champ Atlanta lost to Miami (playing like crap going into today) at Home!

 

And guys are giving Gruden crap for Winning a tight ballgame against a San Francisco team that has gone toe-to-toe with every team they've met this season.

 

Jay got it done.  At the end of the year, there won't be any "if we had beaten the 9ers" talk.  Unlike the aforementioned "Contenders".

EXACTLY. Thank you!

 

That's the issue. People here don't actually watch the NFL. They watch the Redskins, that's it.

[SWFLSkins]

2 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

EXACTLY. Thank you!

 

That's the issue. People here don't actually watch the NFL. They watch the Redskins, that's it.

 

I watch the RZ, lol. yeah I don't dial in to every game, just not that into NFL anymore. But I do pay attention, like your sig.....hahaha 

 

 

Losing is an artform and Washington D.C. is Michaelangelo

[dyst]

Fear is that we hire another Zorn if we get rid of Gruden. He’s a decent/good coach. Sure he’s not great but with this team...it can always get worse.

[Diehard Otis]

6 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

EXACTLY. Thank you!

 

That's the issue. People here don't actually watch the NFL. They watch the Redskins, that's it.

THANK YOU SIR! Some of the stuff I'm reading here....and I'm thinking are you guys watching NFL games???  Hell, we look better than (EASILY) half The League!

 

And after beating a dangerous Winless team, guys are calling for Gruden's job?

 

Twilight Zone.

[Rufus T Firefly]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

EXACTLY. Thank you!

 

That's the issue. People here don't actually watch the NFL. They watch the Redskins, that's it.

Or, you know, maybe people are watching and judging the coach based on whether he's doing his job well, rather than thinking "win=coach good".

 

Or you can just assume anyone who has a different opinion must not know as much as you.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

19 minutes ago, Diehard Otis said:

I would remind everyone here that Baltimore lost at Home to a 1 Win team! 

 

Oakland lost at Home to the last place Chargers (can't get used to putting LA in front of their name)

 

and Defending Conference Champ Atlanta lost to Miami (playing like crap going into today) at Home!

 

And guys are giving Gruden crap for Winning a tight ballgame against a San Francisco team that has gone toe-to-toe with every team they've met this season.

 

Jay got it done.  At the end of the year, there won't be any "if we had beaten the 9ers" talk.  Unlike the aforementioned "Contenders".

 

On the other hand, when we actually play good teams, these mistakes gruden always makes catch up to us as it did during the Chiefs game. 

 

I guess if the bar is squeaking by winless teams in the final seconds, sure, let’s praise Gruden and hang onto the guy 

[SWFLSkins]

1 minute ago, dyst said:

Fear is that we hire another Zorn if we get rid of Gruden. He’s a decent/good coach. Sure he’s not great but with this team...it can always get worse.

 

Fear is what prevents success. Jay coaches like he is in Fear mode. 

[88Comrade2000]

I think after this season plays out; you should be able to reach a conclusion on where you think Gruden will take us. I think they are certain coaches who can only take you to a certain level but can't take you to the next. Gruden has pulled us from the sorry ass team he inherited to that 7-9 win level.  I just don't think he can take us beyond that.  Yeah, this season is only 5 games in, but I am starting to harden my position on where I think Gruden can take us. Gruden is mediocre.

 

He will be back in 2018 unless he finishes with double digit losses.  Remember, Snyder has NEVER had a head coach beyond 4 years.

 

Norv - 1 year, 13 games - Fired

Marty - 1 year - Shame that he has Alzheimer. - Fired

Steve - 2 years - Quit

St. Joe - 4 Years - Retired

Jim - 2 years - Fired

Mike - 4 years - Fired

Jay - In his 4th year, stay tuned. Did get a contract extension last year.

[Warhead36]

Just now, Rufus T Firefly said:

Or, you know, maybe people are watching and judging the coach based on whether he's doing his job well, rather than thinking "win=coach good".

 

Or you can just assume anyone who has a different opinion must not know as much as you.

If you actually watch the NFL, you'll see that every coach has his ups and downs. There is no such thing as this super mastermind tactical flawless genius. Doesn't exist.

 

Andy Reid has been coaching damn near 20 years and still messes up the clock.

 

Pete Carroll still can't coach up an offense and regularly has teams commit the most penalties in the league.

 

John Harbaugh's Ravens just lost at home to a rookie QB.

 

Mike Tomlin regularly blows games by doing dumb stuff.

 

Ben McAdoo has a mutiny on his hands in NY.

 

Trust me, there are coaches out there worse than Gruden. MUCH worse.

[Diehard Otis]

Just now, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

On the other hand, when we actually play good teams, these mistakes gruden always makes catch up to us as it did during the Chiefs game. 

 

I guess if the bar is squeaking by winless teams in the final seconds, sure, let’s praise Gruden and hang onto the guy 

You Win.

 

I don't know what else to say.  For YEARS here, people have talked about how we'll never get it together.  Now we've got it together and folks still ain't satisfied.

 

The handicappers don't play OR Coach in these games.  Washington has built a Winning Football Program.

 

But inevitably, instead of enjoying it, posters here are bound and determined to pick it apart.  Go ahead, but I'll appreciate The Team's Win.

[88Comrade2000]

3 minutes ago, dyst said:

Fear is that we hire another Zorn if we get rid of Gruden. He’s a decent/good coach. Sure he’s not great but with this team...it can always get worse.

 

As I said, unless he finishes with double digit losses; he isn't going anywhere.  I don't really see us going anywhere beyond the mediocre level with Jay.

Though Snyder hasn't had a coach make it beyond 4 years and this is Jay's 4th year.

 

If Dan makes a change from Jay this year or next or whenever; Dan will go after the next big name. That's his pattern. Whenever the next time this team is looking for a new coach; that new coach will be a BIG name either from the NFL ranks or College Ranks. 

[TheShredder]

I think Gruden needs to improve with everybody else. No need to head hunt...that's not called for.  I wonder what Chuckie would do???  He's got an excellent network to rely on and hopefully he makes good winning calls.  I don't agree with some play calling and decisions as a fan, so I'd like to see improvement. 

[Warhead36]

If we get rid of Gruden, who are we gonna get that's better? We could find another up and coming assistant sure, but then we're basically starting over. Then when we go 5-11 with that new guy the SAME PEOPLE are gonna want him fired too. And you're more likely to get a loser than a winner.

 

Another retread? That has proven to not work. It'd be Shanahan part 2.

 

Jay Gruden is a better then average football coach. Watch other teams play and you'll see, there are some atrocious coaches in the league.

[Rufus T Firefly]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

If you actually watch the NFL, you'll see that every coach has his ups and downs. There is no such thing as this super mastermind tactical flawless genius. Doesn't exist.

 

I watch plenty of football and I don't see any coaches who I would consider "good" have the kinds of issues Gruden has. Especially with his experience. 

 

Calling a Timeout when your opponent is about to get a delay penalty, for example, is as dumb as any coaching decision I have ever seen.

[SWFLSkins]

2 minutes ago, Diehard Otis said:

THANK YOU SIR! Some of the stuff I'm reading here....and I'm thinking are you guys watching NFL games???  Hell, we look better than (EASILY) half The League!

 

And after beating a dangerous Winless team, guys are calling for Gruden's job?

 

Twilight Zone.

 

First, this thread isn't calling for his job it's a discussion of the job he is doing, has been doing. I hope by seasons end I am back in the buy mode. Second, I posted the link to the old thread so this is not an old topic, I posted a Link for the 2016 version. There are some flaws in his performance that I would expect to see growth in, game mgt. being one of them. 

 

I have coached and been successful in many levels of youth sports, a winner is a winner, I have seen it time and time again. I take no pleasure in the fact that Gruden hasn't shown that he can go next level, I hope I am wrong. 

 

After a bye, beating a "dangerous winless team" is what a good team can do, we are an OK team, if you are OK with that, that's OK for you. I want more, time is at hand, I have watched this team for 40 years. The last 20+ has been a struggle, most would have quit, many have. 

 

How many rings does Andy Reid have? Because you know, he took Philly to many championships but never closed out the job, mostly based on game mgt. issues. 

[skins island connection]

 

 You know, it was last year, when the Redskins began beating the teams they should; it didn't start this year.

 

 I do believe that Gruden will do for the Redskins what he did in Cincy; get them to the playoffs where they're one-n-done. Is he a horrible HC? No, certainly not, but he has yet to prove on a consistent basis that he can run and adjust in a two-minute offense. It was the defense, and a controversial call here and there that bailed the Redskins out, not Gruden.

 

This team came off a bye; and once again looked sluggish, un-coordinated, and off. His main job is to ensure the coordinators have the players ready, and produce a game plan that is successful. He can do this for the first half, but fails on the second half, when opponents make adjustments he cannot counter. Its like he's playing catch-up all over again.

 

You look at good coaches, like Gibbs, Parcels, Belichick, they evaluate what went right and wrong in the first half, thought about how opponents would adjust, and was one step ahead of other coaches; Gruden sees the team doing good, and decides not to do anything, then when opponents do adjust, he has to scramble to counter, but they're already on the next phase, so he's depending on a break to happen to bail him out.

[Warhead36]

2 minutes ago, skins island connection said:

 

 This team came off a bye; and once again looked sluggish, un-coordinated, and off. His main job is to ensure the coordinators have the players ready, and produce a game plan that is successful. He can do this for the first half, but fails on the second half, when opponents make adjustments he cannot counter. Its like he's playing catch-up all over again.

 

You look at good coaches, like Gibbs, Parcels, Belichick, they evaluate what went right and wrong in the first half, thought about how opponents would adjust, and was one step ahead of other coaches; Gruden sees the team doing good, and decides not to do anything, then when opponents do adjust, he has to scramble to counter, but they're already on the next phase, so he's depending on a break to happen to bail him out.

I disagree. We scored on our opening drive. We had a 17-0 lead. We looked good at the start. Not totally sure what happened after that.

 

But if you look around the league, every game is close. So either every team's coach takes their foot off the gas, or its just how the league is now.

 

And you're comparing Gruden to 2 Hall of Famers and one sure fire HOF-er. He doesn't have to be that good to win a Super Bowl. This is the same NFL where guys like John Harbaugh, Mike Tomlin, and Pete Carroll have won rings. Gruden is just as good as any of those guys.

[tshile]

There are so many things I like about gruden, but the things I don't like are huge on my list. Like clock management.

 

Real problem from gruden, to me, is he doesn't have a quality gm to help him...

[skins island connection]

3 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I disagree. We scored on our opening drive. We had a 17-0 lead. We looked good at the start. Not totally sure what happened after that.

 

But if you look around the league, every game is close. So either every team's coach takes their foot off the gas, or its just how the league is now.

 

And you're comparing Gruden to 2 Hall of Famers and one sure fire HOF-er. He doesn't have to be that good to win a Super Bowl. This is the same NFL where guys like John Harbaugh, Mike Tomlin, and Pete Carroll have won rings. Gruden is just as good as any of those guys.

 

  I get what you're saying, but yea, 'I don't know what happened after that' is whats going through Gruden's mind.  Its 2nd half preparations and adjustments that let the 9ers right back in it.

I didn't mean to make it a comparison with Gruden and the other coaches, I was merely trying to point out how they were great at 2nd half adjustments. You have to admit, in any close game in the 4th, he tends to get time-out happy, not utilizing them or using them at the wrong times. This was the comparison I wanted to make.

 

Its going to be at best a close game going into the 4th next week; I'm hoping it is, because the Eagles are playing good football and taking advantage of opportunities; if Gruden gets lost in the game, taking too long to call a play or calling an il-advised time-out, it will be my last straw with him. I've seen him blunder too many times to give him a pass for being slightly better than average. At some point he has to be better or this team goes nowhere.

[Diehard Otis]

35 minutes ago, SWFLSkins said:

 

First, this thread isn't calling for his job it's a discussion of the job he is doing, has been doing. I hope by seasons end I am back in the buy mode. Second, I posted the link to the old thread so this is not an old topic, I posted a Link for the 2016 version. There are some flaws in his performance that I would expect to see growth in, game mgt. being one of them. 

 

I have coached and been successful in many levels of youth sports, a winner is a winner, I have seen it time and time again. I take no pleasure in the fact that Gruden hasn't shown that he can go next level, I hope I am wrong. 

 

After a bye, beating a "dangerous winless team" is what a good team can do, we are an OK team, if you are OK with that, that's OK for you. I want more, time is at hand, I have watched this team for 40 years. The last 20+ has been a struggle, most would have quit, many have. 

 

How many rings does Andy Reid have? Because you know, he took Philly to many championships but never closed out the job, mostly based on game mgt. issues. 

@SWFLSkins First, let me make this absolutely clear: I would never personally attack you!  Hell - in my view, you are one of the ES Elders (I mean that in a strictly respectful manner).  Your views are to be respected.

 

I'm sorry: I may have been feeling my cheerios there for a minute. (Humblest apologies)

 

As for the topic at hand, I am by no means a Jay apologist.  Truth is I wanted to skin him myself over the RGIII affair<-----I know, that's a whole lifetime ago.  But, as other posters have noted, the guy Won me over.  Why?  Because he Wins.  Period.

 

When the rubber meets the road, I'm behind the crew that Wins ballgames.  Does that mean I'm guilty of shifting allegiances?  Absolutely.  And I will own that one, because I want Washington Football to be GREAT. (we all do!)

 

As this pertains to Jay, I admit he has his faults.  But he has built a Winner here.  And when this Team is on its stuff, they can be hell! 

 

I say "why not give it time?"  The (former) fat boy has earned our respect.  And this should unquestionably be his team going forward.  And in my opinion, he's has this team on the cusp of something special.

 

How can anyone here not buy into that?

 

 

[SWFLSkins]

53 minutes ago, skins island connection said:

 

 You know, it was last year, when the Redskins began beating the teams they should; it didn't start this year.

 

 I do believe that Gruden will do for the Redskins what he did in Cincy; get them to the playoffs where they're one-n-done. Is he a horrible HC? No, certainly not, but he has yet to prove on a consistent basis that he can run and adjust in a two-minute offense. It was the defense, and a controversial call here and there that bailed the Redskins out, not Gruden.

 

This team came off a bye; and once again looked sluggish, un-coordinated, and off. His main job is to ensure the coordinators have the players ready, and produce a game plan that is successful. He can do this for the first half, but fails on the second half, when opponents make adjustments he cannot counter. Its like he's playing catch-up all over again.

 

You look at good coaches, like Gibbs, Parcels, Belichick, they evaluate what went right and wrong in the first half, thought about how opponents would adjust, and was one step ahead of other coaches; Gruden sees the team doing good, and decides not to do anything, then when opponents do adjust, he has to scramble to counter, but they're already on the next phase, so he's depending on a break to happen to bail him out.

 

49 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I disagree. We scored on our opening drive. We had a 17-0 lead. We looked good at the start. Not totally sure what happened after that.

 

But if you look around the league, every game is close. So either every team's coach takes their foot off the gas, or its just how the league is now.

 

And you're comparing Gruden to 2 Hall of Famers and one sure fire HOF-er. He doesn't have to be that good to win a Super Bowl. This is the same NFL where guys like John Harbaugh, Mike Tomlin, and Pete Carroll have won rings. Gruden is just as good as any of those guys.

 

You both are making so really valid points. 

[SWFLSkins]

13 minutes ago, Diehard Otis said:

@SWFLSkins First, let me make this absolutely clear: I would never personally attack you!  Hell - in my view, you are one of the ES Elders (I mean that in a strictly respectful manner).  Your views are to be respected.

 

I'm sorry: I may have been feeling my cheerios there for a minute. (Humblest apologies)

 

As for the topic at hand, I am by no means a Jay apologist.  Truth is I wanted to skin him myself over the RGIII affair<-----I know, that's a whole lifetime ago.  But, as other posters have noted, the guy Won me over.  Why?  Because he Wins.  Period.

 

When the rubber meets the road, I'm behind the crew that Wins ballgames.  Does that mean I'm guilty of shifting allegiances?  Absolutely.  And I will own that one, because I want Washington Football to be GREAT. (we all do!)

 

As this pertains to Jay, I admit he has his faults.  But he has built a Winner here.  And when this Team is on its stuff, they can be hell! 

 

I say "why not give it time?"  The (former) fat boy has earned our respect.  And this should unquestionably be his team going forward.  And in my opinion, he's has this team on the cusp of something special.

 

How can anyone here not buy into that?

 

 

 

 

Never took it that way. To say others don't watch Football is really indicating they don't know what they are seeing in your view. How we learn is seeing things as others see them. Here's the thing, Gruden seems like a good guy, engaging, funny, smart.....but where is the fire....where was Jay when VD got jobbed. Any great Coach would have been livid and in the Refs ear....maybe he just doesn't do it that way....maybe it will work his way. I hope it does. I hope he is beyond avg. or slightly above, but just posting north of .500 ain't good enough. Winning teams get to 9-7 or better, they than go north of that when they learn how to win at that level. Will Jay ever be able to get to that level, playoffs year in and year out? I hope so. 

 

When I say Sell,  I don't mean fire or replace, I mean like the market, His stock is in Sell mode until the fundamentals improve and a Buy is put in. How patient is the Sell mode before it turns into Dump mode? Well that is on Bruce and Snyder, The guys who have Crashed the market before and I don't trust them. I would SELL< SELL< SELL those two.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

 

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

This is the same NFL where guys like John Harbaugh, Mike Tomlin, and Pete Carroll have won rings. Gruden is just as good as any of those guys.

 

None of those guys are offensive guys and all the teams are known for their defense. 

 

Each has had an impact on the culture of their franchises despite not being hands on at either offense or defense as far as playcalling. They set a tone so to speak and are leaders for their teams. I never get that sense from gruden. They also do a lot of the other aspects of the coaching game correctly and their teams are typically always well prepared and well coached. 

 

Im not sure Gruden could steer the ship of any of those teams to the SB in the years they won it. 

 

Lile i said, Gruden used to be able to fall back on being so hands on with the offense but the offense isn’t anything impressive so far this season so he needs to get that together or what he brings to the table is fast diminishing