Standing during the Pledge or National Anthem

[Ray-Ban Dan]

33 minutes ago, Gamebreaker said:

No, I didn't. The chokehold was unneccessary, and it killed him. He also was not resisting arrest. Moving around because you can't breathe due to the illegal chokehold that was immediately used is not resisting arrest. And considering plenty of Americans who are not people of color don't follow instructions and don't end up dead, that excuse is lame. 

Furthermore, Castillo followed instructions and ended up dead anyway. So stop being a bad cop apologist. Michael Slager didn't need to shoot Walter Scott multiple times in the back and manipulate the crime scene to support his lies. Brian Murphy didn't need to pull his gun out and point it at Obed Deleon while his fellow off-duty officers beat the hell out of him for saying they needed to stop blocking the parking lot of the restaurant. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-off-duty-chicago-police-beating-met-20160904-story.html Jason Van Dyke didn't need to shoot Laquan McDonald 16 times, most of which were after McDonald was already dead on the ground, and then lie about it. So cut the bull****, many of these police shootings have nothing to do with people of color not following instructions and a lot to do with a significant percentage of police officers not viewing them as human beings. 

You just don't get it.

[Aireskoi]

1 hour ago, Gamebreaker said:

...

Please list these many cases where the shooting was justified. It seems you only know of Michael Brown. 

Let's also don't forget police brutality and murders haven't been just from shootings,

didn't get a bullet but he did get that illegal chokehold. 

Bad police need to be held accountable, once it's proven they acted in an unjustified violent way.

You seem to know quite a bit about the issue, are you able to recount play by play any of the over 700 whites that have been killed by the police this year?  How different are the actual stories, what does it really take for a white to be killed vs. a poc?

I haven't done the research, so nothing against you if you didn't. 

4 hours ago, Corcaigh said:

Gay white woman takes a knee. Will she get the same vitriol?

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2016/09/05/u-s-soccer-star-megan-rapinoe-joins-colin-kaepernick-in-kneeling-during-national-anthem/

Well, what is she wearing?

No!  I mean her socks, hat, and shirt.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Aireskoi

[Gamebreaker]

46 minutes ago, Ray-Ban Dan said:

You just don't get it.

 

Ok. 

[Gamebreaker]

1 hour ago, Aireskoi said:

Bad police need to be held accountable, once it's proven they acted in an unjustified violent way.

You seem to know quite a bit about the issue, are you able to recount play by play any of the over 700 whites that have been killed by the police this year?  How different are the actual stories, what does it really take for a white to be killed vs. a poc?

I haven't done the research, so nothing against you if you didn't. 

We are in agreement that bad police need to be held accountable, but how can we trust the same people guilty of potentially committing a crime to investigate themselves? We've seen numerous situations where they've tried to cover it up, or withhold evidence. The only reason we even know about some of these murders is due to the advancement in technology on hand for civilians and victims alike. 

Finding statistics like on race demographics, or whether a shooting is justified or not, is difficult to determine because most precincts aren't keeping these statistics well, and in some cases, can't be trusted to be unbiased.

The FBI has been trying to track those numbers, but based off what they were able to announce they still stated the findings were incomplete due to lack of information. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/fbi-director-calls-lack-of-data-on-police-shootings-ridiculous-embarrassing/2015/10/07/c0ebaf7a-6d16-11e5-b31c-d80d62b53e28_story.html

"The FBI has struggled to gather the most basic data, relying on local police departments to voluntarily share information about officer-involved shootings. Since 2011, less than 3 percent of the nation’s 18,000 state and local police agencies have done so."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/fbi-to-sharply-expand-system-for-tracking-fatal-police-shootings/2015/12/08/a60fbc16-9dd4-11e5-bce4-708fe33e3288_story.html

So anyone who says they for certain know what the numbers are, or that police shootings are "overstated", or giving you a statement that is solely their own opinion and not supported by facts whatsoever. 

Edited September 6, 2016 by Gamebreaker

[Spearfeather]

Since you mentioned these particular cases along with the others:

Just now, Gamebreaker said:

He ( Garner ) also was not resisting arrest.

He absolutely was resisting arrest. That doesn't mean he should die because of it. But, he was resisting.

 

Just now, Gamebreaker said:

Furthermore, Castille followed instructions and ended up dead anyway

How do you know that ?

Edited September 6, 2016 by Spearfeather

[Aireskoi]

2 hours ago, Gamebreaker said:

We are in agreement that bad police need to be held accountable, but how can we trust the same people guilty of potentially committing a crime to investigate themselves? We've seen numerous situations where they've tried to cover it up, or withhold evidence. The only reason we even know about some of these murders is due to the advancement in technology on hand for civilians and victims alike. 

...

What I'm actually asking, and again I'm not trying to put you on the spot, but do you know any of the details of the cases where whites were shot by the police.  It seems that you know the details of the police shooting cases very well, so I'm hoping you could compare.  I'm wondering if you can make a comparison of what it takes to get shot if you're a white person vs. a poc when dealing with the police.

It's not a stats question, I'm trying to understand what the double standard really is from someone that follows this closely. 

------

Another thought, I wonder could the issue really be sexism against men?  It seems that these are mostly men and boys getting killed.  You don't see them killing too many women.

Most women I know can tell multiple stories about getting pulled over with a good reason, and then just let go with no ticket.  Not as many guys can say that.

[Gamebreaker]

@Spearfeather We can agree to disagree on the resisting part, but we are both in agreement that he shouldn't have been killed over it. There is a reason why chokeholds are illegal, and Garner's death is why. Nothing happening to the officer who caused it is part of the reason why people like Kaep are taking their stance, despite how someone may feel about how they go about it. In regards to Castillo, I have yet to see anyone from that PD contradict the statement his GF made. The only thing I can find contradicting anything she said in that video has been from clearly biased websites with agendas. 

 

51 minutes ago, Aireskoi said:

What I'm actually asking, and again I'm not trying to put you on the spot, but do you know any of the details of the cases where whites were shot by the police.  It seems that you know the details of the police shooting cases very well, so I'm hoping you could compare.  I'm wondering if you can make a comparison of what it takes to get shot if you're a white person vs. a poc when dealing with the police.

It's not a stats question, I'm trying to understand what the double standard really is from someone that follows this closely. 

------

Another thought, I wonder could the issue really be sexism against men?  It seems that these are mostly men and boys getting killed.  You don't see them killing too many women.

Most women I know can tell multiple stories about getting pulled over with a good reason, and then just let go with no ticket.  Not as many guys can say that.

Sorry if I misunderstood your previous post. I've tried to research that in particular, I haven't found too many details. From what I've seen so far, regardless of color YOU CAN GET SHOT BY THE POLICE. White people are being shot by police too, typically, poor white people if we add in economic disparities. But it seems to take far less for a person of color to be shot than a white person. Here is a video, a social experiment, of the differences in how police respond to open carry for a white male and a black male: 

 

Now it's important to understand not all police brutality ends in a shooting. In the Garner incident, no bullets were fired and Garner is still dead. There was also a young white male who wouldn't roll down his window all the way on a traffic stop, and the officer tazed him longer than he was legally supposed to and threw his face into a curb, putting him in a coma.  Both of these incidents are examples of police brutality. The black man is dead; the officer suffers no consequences. The white kid is paralyzed; the officer is fired.

People see these differences and say,"That's not fair." Typically the response from the other side of the argument is "These are individual incidents and not a trend" or "the media is only highlighting certain incidents". But when we see the same scenarios play out over and over, you can't keep saying it's not a trend or it's the media's fault forever. 

I do believe sexism plays a part. Men are physically more intimidating, and that certain plays a part in it. How much? I'm not certain. 

Below is a link to a database the Wash Post is doing. I am not sure how accurate it is, as I'm sure they have to deal with the same issues of lack of information that the FBI deals with. The numbers are nonetheless interesting...maybe I should move to Rhode Island, they have no listed police shootings there. 

 https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings/

Edited September 6, 2016 by Gamebreaker

[Spearfeather]

Just now, Gamebreaker said:

We can agree to disagree on the resisting part .( Garner )

Why would you disagree ?

Quote

In regards to Castillo, I have yet to see anyone from that PD contradict the statement his GF made.

What have the cops said about the Castille case ?

 As far as the video above there are also experiments showing black cops are quicker to fire on black suspects than white cops are.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Spearfeather

[grego]

6 hours ago, Gamebreaker said:

We are in agreement that bad police need to be held accountable, but how can we trust the same people guilty of potentially committing a crime to investigate themselves? We've seen numerous situations where they've tried to cover it up, or withhold evidence. The only reason we even know about some of these murders is due to the advancement in technology on hand for civilians and victims alike. 

Finding statistics like on race demographics, or whether a shooting is justified or not, is difficult to determine because most precincts aren't keeping these statistics well, and in some cases, can't be trusted to be unbiased.

The FBI has been trying to track those numbers, but based off what they were able to announce they still stated the findings were incomplete due to lack of information. 

i think you bring up some good points, gamebreaker. 

as much as ive been critical of the methodology, if some good can come out of this- i e, more accountability, more body cameras (which is already happening), then thats good. 

as far as the Castille case, there are certainly left and right wing sites that have their version of events, and i'm always skeptical of both. i will say, anyone who does what his girlfriend does in front of their kids is a pretty bad person. 

this is not to say the shooting was or was not justified- just that if her word is what were going on, i'd hope for something better. (and i dont necessarily trust the police, btw.)

Edited September 7, 2016 by grego

[Springfield]

I think that beyond race, police shootings come back to a larger factor.  Fear.  It explains why there are virtually no police shootings of women, black and white alike.  Most officers don't have fear of a woman.  Yet a big, boisterous black dude will set off the fight or flight instinct of a cop.  It may be that the cop is racist, or possibly that he's afraid when he needn't be.

 

Another thought occurred to me.  Of the countless videos of police shootings we've seen lately, how many of the victims have been particularly well dressed?

[Gamebreaker]

1 hour ago, Spearfeather said:

Why would you disagree ?

What have the cops said about the Castille case ?

 As far as the video above there are also experiments showing black cops are quicker to fire on black suspects than white cops are.

 

Why would I disagree? Because I don't think he was resisting arrest. And you can look up what the cops have said about the Castille case. I am unable to do so at the moment. 

Can you link these experiments in this thread? But also, I don't know why people keep making a point of black officers being harder on black suspects than white officers. I could link interviews from former black officers who say they have to be harder to prove to their white co-workers they won't go easy on their own race. This has been said a gazillion times and people just keep ignoring it. 

Edited September 7, 2016 by Gamebreaker

[Major Harris]

36 minutes ago, Gamebreaker said:

 But also, I don't know why people keep making a point of black officers being harder on black suspects than white officers. 

I don't think that even strengthens their case.   If anything,  black cops shooting black people at a higher rate only weakens it.   

[Ray-Ban Dan]

1 hour ago, Springfield said:

I think that beyond race, police shootings come back to a larger factor.  Fear.  It explains why there are virtually no police shootings of women, black and white alike.  Most officers don't have fear of a woman.  Yet a big, boisterous black dude will set off the fight or flight instinct of a cop.  It may be that the cop is racist, or possibly that he's afraid when he needn't be.

 

 

You left out: oftentimes a cop is attacked, or a suspect reaches for their weapon (or the cops), and they're left with no choice but to shoot them. 

These discussions are always so one-sided. There is never any accountability from the other side. That is a HUGE factor in these shootings. 

Another issue is that people are reluctant to wait until all the facts are out. No one here has ANY idea what happened in that Castille case BEFORE the recording begins, yet there are those in here (and millions around the country) that have already convicted the cop. It's ridiculous.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Ray-Ban Dan

[Springfield]

3 minutes ago, Ray-Ban Dan said:

You left out: oftentimes a cop is attacked, or a suspect reaches for their weapon, and they're left with no choice but to shoot them. 

These discussions are always so one-sided. There is never any accountability from the other side. That is a HUGE factor in these shootings. 

Another issue is that people are reluctant to wait until all the facts are out. No one here has ANY idea what happened in that Castille case BEFORE the recording begins, yet there are those in here (and millions around the country) that have already convicted the cop. It's idiotic.

I'm not really trying to go down that path.

 

My comment was to offer an explanation that didn't directly point to race as the motive for police shootings.  One I believe that is probably a bit closer to the actual issue.  I think that police tend to shoot not out of hatred, but out of fear.

[Spearfeather]

Just now, Gamebreaker said:

 

Why would I disagree? Because I don't think he was resisting arrest. And you can look up what the cops have said about the Castille case. I am unable to do so at the moment. 

Can you link these experiments in this thread? But also, I don't know why people keep making a point of black officers being harder on black suspects than white officers. I could link interviews from former black officers who say they have to be harder to prove to their white co-workers they won't go easy on their own race. This has been said a gazillion times and people just keep ignoring it. 

Maybe you and I disagree on what " resisting arrest " means. If a cop told me to put my hands behind my back and he grabbed my wrist, and then I pulled my arm away, that would be resisting. When another cop tries to grab my wrist again, and I pull my arm away and step back, that would be resisting.

I'm not the one claiming that the cops said anything about the Castille case.

 

 

 

Quote

 Black and Hispanic police officers are more likely to fire a gun at blacks than white officers. This is according to a Department of Justice report in 2015 about the Philadelphia Police Department, and is further confirmed that by a study conducted University of Pennsylvania criminologist Greg Ridgeway in 2015 that determined black cops were 3.3 times more likely to fire a gun than other cops at a crime scene. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/true-crime/wp/2016/04/27/this-study-found-race-matters-in-police-shootings-but-the-results-may-surprise-you/

Quote

James’ study is a follow-up to one in which she found active police officers, military personnel and the general public took longer to shoot black suspects than white or Hispanic suspects. Participants were also more likely to shoot unarmed white suspects than black or Hispanic ones and more likely to fail to fire at armed black suspects.

 

[Major Harris]

 

44 minutes ago, Springfield said:

I'm not really trying to go down that path.

 

My comment was to offer an explanation that didn't directly point to race as the motive for police shootings.  One I believe that is probably a bit closer to the actual issue.  I think that police tend to shoot not out of hatred, but out of fear.

If it's out of fear,  why does it seem to happen to black people more? 

 

I blame NWA. 

5 minutes ago, Spearfeather said:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/true-crime/wp/2016/04/27/this-study-found-race-matters-in-police-shootings-but-the-results-may-surprise-you/

 

That'd be way more interesting if it weren't simulations

Edited September 7, 2016 by Major Harris

[Spearfeather]

Just now, Major Harris said:

 

That'd be way more interesting if it weren't simulations

I was asked for some links and I gave one. Make of it what you will.

[Major Harris]

3 minutes ago, Spearfeather said:

I was asked for some links and I gave one. Make of it what you will.

 

not knocking you for posting it.  it is interesting.  i just wonder, in a simulation, it seems one would be able to think about the situation more.  they also probably know they're being evaluated.  just different than real world scenarios, imo.  of course, i've never been in a police simulator either.

[Spearfeather]

Just now, Major Harris said:

 

not knocking you for posting it.  it is interesting.  i just wonder, in a simulation, it seems one would be able to think about the situation more.  they also probably know they're being evaluated.  just different than real world scenarios, imo.  of course, i've never been in a police simulator either.

I agree the real life/simulation could make a difference, but I thought this was worth noting:

Quote

It’s the third time researchers at Washington State — Lois James, Stephen M. James and Bryan J. Vila — have set up simulations to monitor the differing reactions of police when confronted by white or black suspects. And all three times, they found that officers took significantly more time to fire their weapons if the subject was black, according to their latest report, “The Reverse Racism Effect,” to be published in the journal Criminology & Public Policy.

 

[Major Harris]

yeah, i actually did read it.  i saw the 3rd time part.  like i said, interesting...but would be way more interesting if it was real world stuff. 

[The Sisko]

 

5 hours ago, Spearfeather said:

Why would you disagree ?

What have the cops said about the Castille case ?

 As far as the video above there are also experiments showing black cops are quicker to fire on black suspects than white cops are.

The race of the cop doesn't matter a whole lot. If you're not part of the blue gang, 'er, brotherhood, you're the enemy. 

[Burgold]

8 hours ago, Major Harris said:

yeah, i actually did read it.  i saw the 3rd time part.  like i said, interesting...but would be way more interesting if it was real world stuff. 

Yeah, there's definitely a bias threat in a study like this. You know what the researchers are looking at. That impacts how you respond to stimuli. I remember in grad school conducting research and the "pleasing" effect was definitely one that you had to watch out for. If the subject knows what you are studying even in a questionnaire it will change their answering behaviors... usually, they will unconsciously try to help out the researcher (hence the term pleasing effect). In this study, blinding the subjects to the purpose would be pretty tough.

That doesn't invalidate the results, but does mean you have to include the validation threats when discussing them (mind you, you should always do that)

[Springfield]

9 hours ago, Major Harris said:

 

If it's out of fear,  why does it seem to happen to black people more? 

 

I blame NWA. 

 

Putting it bluntly, black men induce fear.  Or more broadly, how many of the police shootings that you've seen involve people (of any race) wearing a suit or even a polo and khakis?

[skinsmarydu]

11 hours ago, Springfield said:

I think that beyond race, police shootings come back to a larger factor.  Fear.  It explains why there are virtually no police shootings of women, black and white alike.  Most officers don't have fear of a woman.  Yet a big, boisterous black dude will set off the fight or flight instinct of a cop.  It may be that the cop is racist, or possibly that he's afraid when he needn't be.

 

Another thought occurred to me.  Of the countless videos of police shootings we've seen lately, how many of the victims have been particularly well dressed?

I could be a 4'10", 50-year-old granny gangsta! 

And your second thought took me back to childhood.  I wanted to dress down for school, because we were in a giant farming area, everyone else did...and it's just more comfortable...Mom wouldn't have it.   I looked like I was headed for an office job somewhere. 

To this day, my jeans and team gear are always clean and hung up properly, but that's what I wear.  I can't change who I am, but I can make sure I don't look like a total bum.

[Major Harris]

22 minutes ago, Springfield said:

 

Putting it bluntly, black men induce fear.  Or more broadly, how many of the police shootings that you've seen involve people (of any race) wearing a suit or even a polo and khakis?

 

 

my first line was just to set up the NWA reference.