Amanda Knox Verdict Reinstated! Guilty as charged!

[Tulane Skins Fan]

Why is everyone who is defending Knox in this thread citing US law? It doesn't apply, Italian law does.

No matter what you think of the Italian trial, Italy has the right as a sovereign nation to set it's own laws as it sees fit, a country that has been under a rule of law for longer than America has been a country, but all that doesn't matter because of the American law for double Jeopardy? That makes no sense, unless you are so arrogant that you believe the laws of your land should be applied all over the world because your form of law is so superior to any alternative.

There are some pretty messed up laws in India regarding rape, but under the scenario most Knox defenders here are supporting an idea that an Indian travel could come to the US, rape someone, return home & not face trail/extradition because the evidence presented in the US is not enough to convict of rape in India.

I am not a Knox hater, I really do not care if she did it or not, but my opinion, like all of the other ones in this thread do not matter, this is for Italian courts to decide and their opinion is all that should matter. This is about respecting Italy's right to set it's own laws.

Now it allmight be moot if Italy decides not to ask for extradition based on a low probability of actually getting her, but that does not make their trial any less valid, no matter how much people try to trash it. You can think Italy made a mistake, but that is no reason to reverse the courts decision, just like how no matter how many people thought OJ did it, that was never going to be enough to change the verdict to guilty.

Well, she's in America now, so American law does apply on some of these issues.

Plus, we have basic civil rights that we believe are inalienable that Italy does not have our did not afford Knox in this case. And to us, it is repulsive and a big part of the story.

[Brad_Edwards_Fan]

Why is everyone who is defending Knox in this thread citing US law? It doesn't apply, Italian law does.

 

Actually, you have to consider the terms of the extradition treaty as well.  There are experts on the subject that believe that the clause in the US- Italy treaty which declares that the specifics of the case have to result in a situation where the citizen would be subjected to greater than 1 year in prison creates a grey area open for debate.  Specifically, even though the Italian courts do not believe the US double jeopardy concern should apply (since to them it is still the same trial) there are experts in the field that believe the state department and justice department would look at this, call it double jeopardy and refuse to extradite.

 

If that happens, it is within the confines of the US- Italy treaty since neither country has to extradite in cases where the specifics would not result in over a one year sentence here... and that treaty is law too.

[SteveFromYellowstone]

So say a group of Korean War vets gets arrested in North Korea and then is tried and convicted for "war crimes against the state" and sentenced to death with no evidence except they fought in the Korean War. By the logic some of you are displaying in this thread, a country's law is a country's law and we should respect it even if the prosecution and basically the entire court system is corrupt. 

[Brad_Edwards_Fan]

So say a group of Korean War vets gets arrested in North Korea and then is tried and convicted for "war crimes against the state" and sentenced to death with no evidence except they fought in the Korean War. By the logic some of you are displaying in this thread, a country's law is a country's law and we should respect it even if the prosecution and basically the entire court system is corrupt. 

Well, if they are arrested there, its gonna be a tough one to fight.  However if, as is the case with Knox, and they are still in the U.S and the other country is asking for them to be sent back there is always the details of the extradition treaty to fall back on.

[Taylor703]

This is where Americas diplomacy will be tested.

I like how some are pointing out that since this would be a case of double jepirday in the US, she won't be extradited, but that would be the most hypocritical stance the justice department could take. Columbia didn't have specific laws for large quantity drug smugglers, but the US did and prosecuted many Columbians in the 1980's & 90's.

This is where American law does not apply, she was found guilty in Italy & the US has a treaty with Italy, they should send her, if not the US justice department essential acts as Italy's appeal court, a very arrogant American thing to do. So even though she should go, I put the chances of her actually going closer to 30%.

Reason #478,389,017,863 why the rest of the world hates you America.

Everyone "hates" America until they need help with something lol

[GSF]

The argument put forth by GHH and ArtmonkforHOF that Knox should be extradited simply because she was convicted in Italy is absolutely ignorant.  What do you guys think that the extradition treaty says? That if someone is convicted they must be extradited period?  That of course is not true for the obvious reason that the US and any other country has the right within the treaty to protect their citizens from wrongful imprisonment if they believe that person has been convicted unjustly. 

 

Italy will be REQUIRED by the treaty to provide the US with all of the evidence used to convict the defendant along with a complete summary of the crime, trial, ect.  If the US believes that Knox was convicted unjustly they will not extradite, just like they have done many times in the past.  It will be interesting to see if Italy even provides the evidence to the US since THEY DON'T HAVE ANY.

 

I am amazed that you 2 dopes can sit there and say," I have no idea if she's guilty or not, but if she was convicted she's guilty and should be extradited, period."  That's not the way in works in the real world there fellas.  Thank God.

 

I will repeat:

 

1.  There has been no motive established.

 

2.  There is no evidence that Knox was involved. The knife you keep referring to GHH was NOT THE KNIFE USED IN THE CRIME.  It was a knife found in the kitchen that did not match the wounds.  You have a very bloody crime scene, yet zero physical evidence that Knox or her boyfriend were there.

 

3.  The killer, a known criminal, originally said that Knox was not there, and then changed his story after receiving a shortened sentence.

 

4.  The prosecutor has been recently convicted of corruption for making similar accusations about another defendant that he made about Knox (satanic sex acts and worship ect).

 

5.  There is nothing in Knox' history or profile indicating that she is capable of such a crime or prone to violence in any way.

 

You two and many of your countryman unfortunately are suffering from a bad case of misdirected hostility.  Where is your outrage towards the man that admitted to stabbing Kercher?  Where is your outrage towards the Italian government for shortening his sentence in exchange for incriminating Knox?  Instead you are applauding the conviction of a young woman based on a few supposed "holes in her story" while admitting that you have no idea if she's guilty or not, and that the Italians completely botched the case from day 1.  Wow.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

The argument put forth by GHH and ArtmonkforHOF that Knox should be extradited simply because she was convicted in Italy is absolutely ignorant......

You forgot to include MartinC in your arrogance and no doubt two or three others who've put an opposing view and respect another Country's laws. (Reardless of whether they do or don't agree.).

Or is igorance' and 'dopes' selective as to whom your venoms directed to at the time?

Hail.

[Slateman]

http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/italian-justice-ministry-investigating-knox-judge?ocid=ansnews11

 

And so it continues. Now the judge is being investigated

[MartinC]

I am amazed that you 2 dopes can sit there and say," I have no idea if she's guilty or not, but if she was convicted she's guilty and should be extradited, period."  That's not the way in works in the real world there fellas.  Thank God.

 

There will certainly be an appeals process in the US and a lengthy one at that. I don't know enough about the treaty between the US and Italy or the US Court system on these matters to have any clue what the basis of those appeals may be or the odds of success. Bottom line though is that if/when the appeal process in the US is exhausted she should be extradited. 

 

You keep saying that Knox has no history that suggests she is capable of murder. That statement applies to many many people who went on to commit murder. Many murders are not committed by criminal psychopaths but by "normal" people who find themselves in some extraordinary situation to which they have an extreme reaction.

 

There is no particular hostility on my part to Knox - I don't know her from a hole in the wall. Again I don't personally feel Knox actually committed the act of murder herself, but my gut is that she was involved in some way and knows a lot more than she is saying. Obviously though thats just based on the media coverage which has been partial BOTH ways in Europe and the US. 

[Tulane Skins Fan]

I haven't heard anyone really explain how extradition would work in this case, but it appears that everyone wants to call everyone else ignorant of it.  Everyone just chill on that.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I believe this is the relevant portion of the treaty:

 

ARTICLE VI 

 

Non Bis in Idem 

 

Extradition shall not be granted when the person sought has been convicted, acquitted or 

pardoned, or has served the sentence imposed, by the Requested Party for the same acts for 

which extradition is requested. 

 

[Slateman]

There will certainly be an appeals process in the US and a lengthy one at that. I don't know enough about the treaty between the US and Italy or the US Court system on these matters to have any clue what the basis of those appeals may be or the odds of success. Bottom line though is that if/when the appeal process in the US is exhausted she should be extradited. 

 

You keep saying that Knox has no history that suggests she is capable of murder. That statement applies to many many people who went on to commit murder. Many murders are not committed by criminal psychopaths but by "normal" people who find themselves in some extraordinary situation to which they have an extreme reaction.

 

There is no particular hostility on my part to Knox - I don't know her from a hole in the wall. Again I don't personally feel Knox actually committed the act of murder herself, but my gut is that she was involved in some way and knows a lot more than she is saying. Obviously though thats just based on the media coverage which has been partial BOTH ways in Europe and the US. 

 

Actually, the majority of muderers have behaviors that lead up to committing murder. They usually have a history escalating violent or stalker-ish behavior. It's rare for someone to have no other criminal history and then suddenly commit a pre-mediated murder.

[Forehead]

I remember a year or two ago when I drafted Amanda Knox to my team in the ES Babe Draft.  Young...hot....the dangerous allure of possibly being a killer...I really thought that pick would intrigue people enough to vote for my team.  Sadly, I was mistaken.

[HogNose]

You can have an opinion, but you have to have a reason.  Please explain. 

The new DNA evidence is hard to argue against. Knox DNA on the handle, and Kercher's on the blade.  I agree that the first trial was botched and not handled very well, but if Sollecito has to do his time, Knox should also. 

 

Anyway, I don't see how she won't be extradited to Italy.  If you look at the treaty she must certainly will be.  How can we, as a country, demand that Snowden be sent back from Russia, but we won't send a convicted murderer back to Italy. 

[MartinC]

Actually, the majority of muderers have behaviors that lead up to committing murder. They usually have a history escalating violent or stalker-ish behavior. It's rare for someone to have no other criminal history and then suddenly commit a pre-mediated murder.

 

The majority maybe but not all and lack of any such history is not a sign that someone could not or would not commit such a crime. Even for the majority who do exhibit the kind of behaviours which lead to murder guess when those behaviours start to become apparent - early 20's ....

[Tulane Skins Fan]

The majority maybe but not all and lack of any such history is not a sign that someone could not or would not commit such a crime. Even for the majority who do exhibit the kind of behaviours which lead to murder guess when those behaviours start to become apparent - early 20's ....

 

Look, what we don't understand is why it seems you want her convicted so badly.  It seems like everyone admits the evidence is faulty or there is none, and that this girl doesn't have a history of violence, and that there is one person in jail for committing the murder who belongs in jail.

 

What is the incentive to have this person (Amanda Knox) found guilty?  Do you all just hate her because she's a young, spoiled American?  That's what it feels like.

[MartinC]

Look, what we don't understand is why it seems you want her convicted so badly.  It seems like everyone admits the evidence is faulty or there is none, and that this girl doesn't have a history of violence, and that there is one person in jail for committing the murder who belongs in jail.

 

What is the incentive to have this person (Amanda Knox) found guilty?  Do you all just hate her because she's a young, spoiled American?  That's what it feels like.

 

Its not me or GHH or anyone else in this thread who has found Knox guilty its the Italian legal system. Like it or lump it right now she is a convicted murderer subject to final appeal in Italy. Its the court systems opinion of the evidence that counts not yours or mine or US Today for that matter.

 

I have said a number of times in this thread I HAVE NO IDEA if she is guilty or not in reality. Neither I would add do any of my US friends (and I mean that I'm not being sarcastic) in this thread have any idea if she is innocent. I have said my gut feel is that I don't think she committed the murder but I do think she knows more than she is saying. I could be wrong. She might have committed the murder or she may have had nothing to do with it.

 

You are entitled to your view which may be different - but ultimately neither of our opinions actually matter.

 

What I DO think though is that at the end of the legal process, in Italy and in the US, if the court systems say she is guilty and there is no legal reason why she should not be subject to extradition she should be extradited. If Countries start picking and choosing which people they extradite to Countries they have treaties with outside of the legal process the whole system will break down. If its not already.

[Slateman]

The new DNA evidence is hard to argue against. Knox DNA on the handle, and Kercher's on the blade.  I agree that the first trial was botched and not handled very well, but if Sollecito has to do his time, Knox should also. 

 

Anyway, I don't see how she won't be extradited to Italy.  If you look at the treaty she must certainly will be.  How can we, as a country, demand that Snowden be sent back from Russia, but we won't send a convicted murderer back to Italy. 

What new DNA? The DNA that was ordered tested in October ? The DNA on the knife? Kercher's DNA was not found on the knife. They still have no murder weapon.

 

This is so far beyond botched it's absurd. No evidence. Nothing to counter alibis. No motive. Oh and a prosecutor who claims that the murder was committed because Knox is some sort of sex crazed slut.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

Its not me or GHH or anyone else in this thread who has found Knox guilty its the Italian legal system. Like it or lump it right now she is a convicted murderer subject to final appeal in Italy. Its the court systems opinion of the evidence that counts not yours or mine or US Today for that matter.

 

I have said a number of times in this thread I HAVE NO IDEA if she is guilty or not in reality. Neither I would add do any of my US friends (and I mean that I'm not being sarcastic) in this thread have any idea if she is innocent. I have said my gut feel is that I don't think she committed the murder but I do think she knows more than she is saying. I could be wrong. She might have committed the murder or she may have had nothing to do with it.

 

You are entitled to your view which may be different - but ultimately neither of our opinions actually matter.

 

What I DO think though is that at the end of the legal process, in Italy and in the US, if the court systems say she is guilty and there is no legal reason why she should not be subject to extradition she should be extradited. If Countries start picking and choosing which people they extradite to Countries they have treaties with outside of the legal process the whole system will break down. If its not already.

 

Fair enough, but I think there are legal reasons she would not be subject to extradition.  Its not as black and white as anyone is claiming it is.

 

Also, as of the other day she has been "convicted of murder" in Italy.  Before that, Italy's own courts said there was no evidence against her and threw a prior conviction out.  So, this just doesn't seem like anything other than a snapshot in time, just as likely to be overturned again.  

 

But I think a lot of people (maybe not you) are for some reason just rooting that she be found guilty, despite admitting that the evidence is lacking.  They say things like "she must know something" or "its in my gut that she did something."  It's not persuasive and its also somewhat telling.

[Kilmer17]

The US has the obligation to defend and protect it's citizens from BS convictions in foreign countries.

 

Not a chance the US agrees to extradite her.

 

Ive read this whole thread, and read a bunch on line.  And Im still not finding why anyone thinks she was involved.  Can anyone offer anything other than "She turned off her cell phone"?

[pjfootballer]

Its not me or GHH or anyone else in this thread who has found Knox guilty its the Italian legal system. Like it or lump it right now she is a convicted murderer subject to final appeal in Italy. Its the court systems opinion of the evidence that counts not yours or mine or US Today for that matter.

 

What I DO think though is that at the end of the legal process, in Italy and in the US, if the court systems say she is guilty and there is no legal reason why she should not be subject to extradition she should be extradited. If Countries start picking and choosing which people they extradite to Countries they have treaties with outside of the legal process the whole system will break down. If its not already.

But why do you believe the Italian legal system should be the final word?  There are several posts that show that several mistakes were made.  Our own legal system here in the US has made plenty of mistakes.  They are not the end all to be all for this.

 

I too have my doubts that she was 100% innocent of the matter and is probably holding something she knows, but would you be willing to blurt it out and take a lengthy sentence yourself?  I posed this question to GHH on the other page.  Would you want to be convicted (in any country) of murder if it wasn't 100% evidence that you were guilty?  Would you want to be conviceted on 99, 90 or 85%?  The Italian court cannot even find 10% evidence that she had anything to do with it.  Everything has been speculation up to this point.

 

If I were 100% sure she did it, I'd want us to extridite her. Otherwise, I say no.

[HogNose]

The US has the obligation to defend and protect it's citizens from BS convictions in foreign countries.

 

Not a chance the US agrees to extradite her.

 

Ive read this whole thread, and read a bunch on line.  And Im still not finding why anyone thinks she was involved.  Can anyone offer anything other than "She turned off her cell phone"?

It's not about agreeing....they really have no choice if it comes down to it. This isn't double jeopardy either because she was convicted the first go around and not acquitted.  

 

Here is a good article. 

 

Why US might send Amanda Knox back to Italy if she loses appeal

[Kilmer17]

Well I think there are two themes in this thread.  The easiest is "Will the US extradite her"? I think it's clear that the extradition treaty will provide her the protection she needs to stay here.

 

But the more amusing one is why some people are so convinced she did it , or knows something.

 

Im asking those people to give me some insight as to why they think that.  I have read it all, and read dozens of articles on it.  And still cant find any (and I mean ANY) evidence that she was involved in any way shape or form.

[88Comrade2000]

Come on Obama; get Janet Reno to go Elian Gonzolez on her and send her back to Italy now.

[MartinC]

But why do you believe the Italian legal system should be the final word? 

It's the US legal system which will have the final say. Assuming the final appeal in Italy fails (and it might not) there is bound to be a series of appeals in the US as well. If that process is exhausted and Knox is found guilty in Italy and there is no legal reason found by a US court to deny an appeal against and extradition request she should be sent back to Italy. That's really all I'm saying.

Well I think there are two themes in this thread.  The easiest is "Will the US extradite her"? I think it's clear that the extradition treaty will provide her the protection she needs to stay here.

 .

It's FAR from clear that there would be any protection under the extradition treaty - a decision to deny a request would likely be a political one. That's what concerns me, not Knox herself but the principle of respecting these requests from other legal jurisdictions if they fall under a mutual treaty.