Griffin Points Blame At Coaching (Postgame-Eagles)

[darrelgreenie]

Simple:

 

- Griffin's primary read is open at the time Griffin hits his back step

- Passing lane has been created by the O-line to help Griffin get the ball to the primary receiver

 

We run lots of slants.  That doesn't mean we throw lots of slants.  For example, on Griffin's 3rd pass of the game (after he missed on the Paulsen throw), we ran a bunched formation with Reed on the outside and Helu and Hankerson on the inside.  Hankerson ran a deep clearing route to vacate the space on the middle-left side of the field, Helu ran a pick route to create separation for Reed, and Reed ran a slant.

 

The LT and LG created a small passing lane for Griffin to hit Reed on the slant.  When Griffin hits his back foot, Reed has 2-3 steps on his man, with the defense in a cover 1 man, meaning the only defender not covering a receiver in man coverage is the safety roaming roughly 20 yards down field.  Griffin never seemed to even look at the slant.  It looks like he was paying attention to the deep safety.  He threw to Garcon at the first down marker but the ball was batted down at the line of scrimmage (i.e. no passing lane was available).

 

Griffin's 4th pass of the game (I believe it was his 4th - play starts at gameclock 5:11 in Q1) was literally the exact same route concept, except against a zone blitz.  This time Paul ran the pick route and Reed ran the deep clearing route.  Garcon runs the slant and is wide open due to the blitzing LB.  Instead of throwing to his wide open WR, Griffin sees the pressure and pulls the ball down, taking a sack (usually something that kills drives).

 

That's 3 slants (the 2 mentioned above and the Griffin fumble) we ran as our primary route during the first 4 drives.  Griffin didn't pull the trigger on any of them.

 

Honestly, just watch the All-22 and press pause every time Griffin hits his back foot.  It's pretty common that there is (a) a wide open passing lane created by the OL, and ( a receiver with 1-on-1 coverage in that passing lane, with a step on his man.

Allow me to repeat:

You said simple passing concepts. Define what you mean by simple? What are the routes concepts/plays are you talking about and when during the game is he calling them?

 

Again, mentioning single instances doesn't prove anything. You can literally do that with EVERY QB in EVERY game.

Even in a great game you can point out at least some portion of the 30% of missed throws are the QBs fault either by missing a read or a throw.

One of my pet peeves when talking/breaking down film is when people use a few examples to represent all the time. Discussing single examples proves nothing.

Finding examples where Griffin misses throws or reads doesn't really say a whole lot when roughly about 30-40% of the time QBs don't connect on their passes.

And without posting screen caps its impossible for me to have this discussion because I'm at work.

But, breaking down film on the all-22 isn't as easy as it initially appears and often times without knowing the read progression its

 

Do you also track the times when 2-man play action routes are called at the start of games and are covered?

 

Do you think getting a QB in rhythm with easy throws early helps them get into rhtyhm? Do you think Kyle did that against the Eagles?

 

On the whole do you think we call many slant routes in general? Because I can count very few times slants routes have been called this season. So pointing out 2 examples of a 'missed' slant route does nothing to refute the fact that we generally don't run them, which was the point I believe Randy was making on slants.

                                                                                                                                    

Showing a couple instances where Griffin admittedly played poorly doesn't mean that net-net Griffin isn't pulling trigger.

 

And if you think he isn't pulling the trigger why do you think that is? When he was hitting the open receiver instride with accuracy during his Rookie of the Year season.

[truskinsfan18]

This thread was started 10 minutes after the press conference. It had to be the first source to mention Griffin's Comments.

Santana Moss, Robert Griffin, Coach Shanahan, ESPN, and various media outlets have all discussed the same thing that was discussed in the OP.

[ncr2h]

Simple means that the OC served the open receiver up to the QB on a silver platter, with 0 brain work involved.  Meaning, the playcall was such that the Oline would open a passing lane, and the routes were designed in such a way that there was a receiver wide open within that passing lane.

 

I was hardly mentioning single instances.  I looked at every play from the first 4 drives, very few of which were passes, and noted that on a significant number of them, Griffin refused to throw to a wide open primary receiver.  This is the part of the game where Griffin said that, "They came out at the beginning of the game and shut down a lot of the stuff we were trying to do."  Based on my analysis of every single play during the first 4 drives of the game, the only one shutting down our passing game was Griffin.  As an added bonus, I noticed that we ran 3 plays in which the primary receiver was running a slant route.  On those first 4 drives, we ran slant routes roughly 30-40% of the time.

 

I don't track anything.  That being said, if you look at the coaches film and pause when Griffin hits his back foot, a large portion of the time there will be a receiver open with a passing lane created by the Oline.  It's obvious that this is the primary receiver - the playcall was such that the OL was instructed to create that specific lane, and usually space is opened up by other receivers running picks or deep clearing routes.  The number of plays like that dwarfs the number of plays where I scratch my head wondering how Kyle ever expected any of the receivers to be open.  The latter type of playcall happens roughly 5 or 6 times per game, where as the former probably happened on 40-50% of our pass plays against the Eagles.

[sharkproof]

You can hone in on his bad games but you are ignoring the good ones. Can't have it both ways. Thankfully your opinion is largely irrelevant.

Really?  As is yours.  If you are putting Grif on Brady's level already... this early in his career then I don't need to try and make a point, you've done it for me.  I'm not looking at just the bad games... I'm looking at the short body of work that he's had and due to this season and other contributing factors he isn't close at this point to comparing.  Had he had a repeat of last year or something close to it thus far this season, it would be a more salient thought, but Brady has been playing at an All Pro level for a decade...  Perhaps RG can/will also, but my point stands that he's not yet there by any metric that any analyst would use especially given this seasons up and down performance.  Certainly the tools are there, but that's only half the picture.  He still has a lot to learn and improve upon.  I'm not saying he can't or won't be there, it's just premature to make that comparison at this point.

[ncr2h]

I just watched the Vikings game, which is generally considered one of Griffin's best performances of the year.

 

I counted 9 slants, and they were some of the best pass plays we drew up all game.  They included:

 

- an 11 yard TD to Reed

- a brilliant 30 yarder on 3rd and 15 in which Garcon ran the lone route and all other receivers blocked down field

- 2 potential TDs to Garcon in the final 2 plays of the game (1 thrown too high, 1 was wide open but Griffin opted for the much riskier fade to Moss)

 

There were roughly 40 pass plays called in that game.  We were in the 2 minute drill at both the end of the 2nd quarter and the end of the 4th quarter, meaning the slant was not exactly a smart playcall in most of those situations.  Furthermore, we ran 7 or 8 screens to WRs and runningbacks.  If you take all of that into account, we ran slants on roughly 40% of our playcalls.  Even if you don't, we ran slants on slightly less than 25% of our playcalls.  I would say that's quite a lot.

 

The problem in many cases is that RG3 is hesitant to throw the slant.  He almost didn't throw the slant to Reed on Reed's TD (ironically, this hesitation is what created the TD).  He turned down an open slant to Robinson on a play identical to the Garcon 30 yarder.  And then he turned Garcon down on the final play of the game, instead trying for the fade to Moss (not exactly a high percentage throw).

[gortiz]

Simple means that the OC served the open receiver up to the QB on a silver platter, with 0 brain work involved.  Meaning, the playcall was such that the Oline would open a passing lane, and the routes were designed in such a way that there was a receiver wide open within that passing lane.

 

I was hardly mentioning single instances.  I looked at every play from the first 4 drives, very few of which were passes, and noted that on a significant number of them, Griffin refused to throw to a wide open primary receiver.  This is the part of the game where Griffin said that, "They came out at the beginning of the game and shut down a lot of the stuff we were trying to do."  Based on my analysis of every single play during the first 4 drives of the game, the only one shutting down our passing game was Griffin.  As an added bonus, I noticed that we ran 3 plays in which the primary receiver was running a slant route.  On those first 4 drives, we ran slant routes roughly 30-40% of the time.

 

I don't track anything.  That being said, if you look at the coaches film and pause when Griffin hits his back foot, a large portion of the time there will be a receiver open with a passing lane created by the Oline.  It's obvious that this is the primary receiver - the playcall was such that the OL was instructed to create that specific lane, and usually space is opened up by other receivers running picks or deep clearing routes.  The number of plays like that dwarfs the number of plays where I scratch my head wondering how Kyle ever expected any of the receivers to be open.  The latter type of playcall happens roughly 5 or 6 times per game, where as the former probably happened on 40-50% of our pass plays against the Eagles.

 

Ncr2h - I appreciate your work and going back and talking from film and not out of your ass ... love this type of discussion. i have Game Rewind as well, but not the All 22, which i'm going to upgrade.  i agree on your definition of "simple" when it comes to play calling, but I am going to make this even more elementary ... 

 

Running Backs ...throwing to running backs. When I think simple, that's what I'm talking about.   But I agree on your definition as well. 

 

Skins are 6th in the NFL in offense (total yards).  The five teams ahead, as of today, have an average of 66 receptions to their running backs ... The Skins? Right now, have 25.   20 to Helu, 3 to Morris, and 2 to DY. 

 

I think completing passes to RB's serves the same purpose as running ball because a lot of times the passes are just long hand offs and also they show to a degree, an ability for a QB to dump the ball off, get 4 yards and live to fight another day. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

 

And if you think he isn't pulling the trigger why do you think that is? When he was hitting the open receiver instride with accuracy during his Rookie of the Year season.

I'll answer this part. This is my opinion. And opinion only. And it might be wrong.

 

i think it's because he REALLY REALLY thought he was ready to come back and play as a pocket passer, a la Drew Brees, week 1. And that he knew he wasn't as fast or as explosive running, but thought he was good enough as a drop back passer to make up for it.

 

I really, really think that he believed that he could just walk on the field, and throw the ball around like the elite QBs do.  He puts in the work on the field, and off. Nobody has EVER, EVER questioned his work ethic.  Dude was working out during his bachelor party and on his honeymoon. He's as committed as anybody I've ever seen.

 

But, he was wrong.  And not only was he wrong, he was REALLY wrong.  And it hit him like a bucket of ice water. He got beat up physically and mentally in the first several games, which completely shook his confidence. And, all of a sudden, for the first time, people were saying, and he was hearing, that he wasn't a good passer.  That he was missing reads. That he was missing throws. And he's throwing INTs.  He doesn't DO that.  So, that makes him more tentative.  He's not trusting his eyes.  

 

And that shook him even more.  He wasn't expecting it.  He's really never had to face that.  And it's not so much the criticism.  But he's watching his own film, and I'm sure he can see it, without it even being pointed out.

 

What this leads to is pressing.  And that's what he's doing.  He's trying to be "too" perfect. He's hesitating.  he's not trusting himself, and he's over-thinking things. Which causes the game to "speed up" instead of "slow down."

 

So, I think that the only way that this gets fixed is in the off season. When everybody can just relax. He can go to Texas with his receivers, and throw a million balls.  He can work with the OC and HC.  They can get him back to even.

 

I just don't think there's much that can be done until the off-season.  He's just going to have to keep going out there and trying. Learning.  Hopefully being humble, taking his lumps, and going forward.  

 

Long answer to a short question. 

[sharkproof]

I'll answer this part. This is my opinion. And opinion only. And it might be wrong.

 

i think it's because he REALLY REALLY thought he was ready to come back and play as a pocket passer, a la Drew Brees, week 1. And that he knew he wasn't as fast or as explosive running, but thought he was good enough as a drop back passer to make up for it.

 

Absolutely spot on take.  This is exactly what I think has happened as well.  Confidence is king in all sports.  Confident athletes don't think... they just do when in the midsts of action.  They think pre play/snap/serve/swing/ but once engaged and it's live it's just the a trained mind and body executing.  The subconscious mind is thinking and directing but not the conscious mind.  RG isn't there yet with sitting in the pocket.  He gets that way on Roll outs to a degree here and there, but mostly his conscious mind is constantly on and it's slowing him down, but not the game.  It's actually speeding the game up for him.  Where if he is just operating from his subconscious mind the game slows down and you just are in the moment and you just do it.   imho this is the hardest thing  (play QB in the NFL) to do in all of pro sports is read defenses and slide around in a chaotic and very dangerous environment and keep your mind in the play an not letting play take over your mind.  I also think that fear of another injury while in the pocket  is messing with his head and it's why he isn't stepping into many passes or moving/sliding forward  in the pocket.  That game is moving too fast right now for him.  Time and practice should help slow it down.  Also some success will do a lot for him.  I'd be running as many WC timing routes as possible where he doesn't have to hold the ball very long and let that start to give him some confidence and a sense of the game and help slow it down.

 

Regardless of my thoughts... Great take on it V.O.R

[Voice_of_Reason]

I'd be running as many WC timing routes as possible where he doesn't have to hold the ball very long and let that start to give him some confidence and a sense of the game and help slow it down.

 

Regardless of my thoughts... Great take on it V.O.R

I completely agree with this.  Darelgreenie and I are going back and forth on what is considered an "easy" play, or something that can be easy to complete. 

 

I hold that even if the play is a little longer to develop, if the WR is open, and it's a simple read, it's easy. ie: The play to Paulsen should have been an easy play to complete.  And could help them get into rhythm, and get going.  

 

However, I would love to see them run a lot of stuff, out of a lot of different formations, where he gets the ball out of his hand in 2.3 seconds or less.

 

Here's a mad statistic that I heard: In last weeks game against the Chiefs, the average time, AVERAGE, that Peyton had the ball in his hands from snap to release was 2.1 seconds.  Think about that.  If that's the Average time, then half the time, it's less than that.  And, for the record, they all weren't on quick screens.  He was spreading the ball around. 

 

Now, the only way you can do that is if you know where everybody is, and you know exactly where to go with the ball pre-snap. And there's probably nobody in the history of the game who wins pre-snap better than Peyton.  So, asking Robert to do that in year two is a bit much.

 

But that's where they need to focus.  Just get the ball out quick.  read/react.  There are probably going to be a bunch of throws that are inaccurate.  But you have to go through that before it gets better. 

[gortiz]

Helu ... helu should be getting at least 5 targets a game. 

 

Give Robert that easy pass to the flat or underneath coverage ... 

[RandyHolt]

My take... before one can run, they must first learn to walk.  If ANY QB has to learn to walk, I have to think it starts best with a short quick passing game.  If we are asking Robert to read deep to short, I am thinking that is the more difficult direction to go. Great pocket, sure. No pocket, it's a failure waiting to happen. By the time QBs are getting to the short reads, what should be the easy play, the pocket is gone.

 

That first deep read is hardest, since the route has not had much time to develop. Start short, if its a pick 6 waiting to happen, guy blanketed, pump get the linemen off their feet, slow them down, and go to the intermediate.... then deep.

 

That is the way I would think is logical to help any QB with read struggles.  Those deep routes will be wide open with great route design/setting up the play. Its not the reading so much, its the routes. Robert can tell when a deep guy is wide open. Trust me. But Kyle and the collapsing OL appear to be in his head. All the tools are there. the onus is on Kyle to make it work. Kyle has to get RG3 confident and I think its safe to say its not in our pocket this year.

 

RG3 was born to run, we all know this, and until I see success dominating as a pocket passer, think its best to use his legs in the passing game much more than we do. Let him have some successes, to get into a rhythm. Get the D out of rhythm, which will help us. We are too predictable at this point.

 

Save practicing pocket passing when we have an OL built for it.

[sharkproof]

I completely agree with this.  Darelgreenie and I are going back and forth on what is considered an "easy" play, or something that can be easy to complete. 

 

I hold that even if the play is a little longer to develop, if the WR is open, and it's a simple read, it's easy. ie: The play to Paulsen should have been an easy play to complete.  And could help them get into rhythm, and get going.  

 

However, I would love to see them run a lot of stuff, out of a lot of different formations, where he gets the ball out of his hand in 2.3 seconds or less.

 

Here's a mad statistic that I heard: In last weeks game against the Chiefs, the average time, AVERAGE, that Peyton had the ball in his hands from snap to release was 2.1 seconds.  Think about that.  If that's the Average time, then half the time, it's less than that.  And, for the record, they all weren't on quick screens.  He was spreading the ball around. 

 

Now, the only way you can do that is if you know where everybody is, and you know exactly where to go with the ball pre-snap. And there's probably nobody in the history of the game who wins pre-snap better than Peyton.  So, asking Robert to do that in year two is a bit much.

 

But that's where they need to focus.  Just get the ball out quick.  read/react.  There are probably going to be a bunch of throws that are inaccurate.  But you have to go through that before it gets better. 

All one has to do is look to the offense that produced the most prolific receiver in history.  Walsh's WCO.  Jerry Rice still holds the record for RAC (run after catch} as well as total receptions and yds.  Marks that more than likely will never, ever be broken.  The scheme rarely stretches the field, but rather uses short passes like and extended running game.   Rice would many times catch balls on his second to third stride but catch the ball in between levels and spaces giving him the chance to make the next would be tackler miss or have to chase him down.  Peyton's offense is something of a spin off on this where depending on the distance and alignment of the defender one can see Peyton look at all of his rec on the line and the defensive backs alignment to them and it appears the rec have two options in which to break their patterns left or right.  Often when a defense moves pre snap he again changes the call or makes eye contact with his rec getting on the same page as to where to run the route.  It's pure timing nothing less.  The rec barely has time to look back and the ball is there and defender even less.  A good route runner with good hands is all that is required.  This is why he wanted Welker so badly and they are such a deadly combo.  The only counter a defense has is to creep their safeties up and adjust their OLB's which then exposes the defense to a deep route.  The shanny's are from the Walsh tree and know this offense well and in my opine, should use these short quick routes a much as possible.  RG isn't as good under center and is more compfortable from the gun which doesn't help because 1 and 3 step drops are hallmarks of Walsh's WCO.  However, I think that RG has the skill and accuracy to make these short dart passes.  I posted some pics from the last games last play and if you look at Garcon at the bottom of the last frame/pic you will see typical WCO/Jerry Rice type pattern that is beyond wide open and RG has a clear lane to throw through.  These short slants and quick outs on layered down the field straining the coverage I think would help RG to relax.  Right now he's wound as tight as a Frog's *** and it isn't getting better.

 

 

 

 

[ncr2h]

(1) We are running tons of slants.  RG3 is not throwing the slants.  For example, look at the picture Sharkproof posted - why is RG3 not throwing that slant to Garcon?  The blocking scheme was likely designed to give him that massive hole to look through, so that there would be no defensive linemen between him and Garcon.  What is he looking at?  Also, I posted pictures of RG3 at the back of his drop for the first 12 passing plays against the Eagles here: http://es.redskins.com/topic/374106-pfteagles%E2%80%99-fletcher-cox-rg3-is-right-we-knew-what-was-coming/page-3.  Additionally, I rewatched the coaches film for the Vikings game and we ran 9 slants out of 40 dropbacks, which is a relatively high percentage when you consider that we were in the 2 minute drill at the end of both halves.

 

(2) All this talk about reading deep to short is BS.  Look at the actual plays we run.  Look at the screencap Shark posted - who is "deep" on that play?  Garcon is running the slant, and Helu's job is to make sure that the linebacker can't sit on the slant route.  All the receivers are at the same depth.  One of them is absurdly open, another is open but RG3 is already late on the throw.  Who's deep?  Who's short?  It's BS.  Most of our plays have 1 or 2 receivers running fake routes that clear our space and/or pick defenders, a main read, and possibly a secondary read.  Or they are WR/RB screens or rollouts.

[RandyHolt]

Look at those 2 pictures. Clearly the primary is among the bunched receivers, that are all covered. That is our passing offense in a nutshell. All WRs bunched, going no where but a few yards down field, and covered. 

 

Sure Garcon is open, but that is not the play. Probably why the corner is playing off. Maybe he knows the play. 

 

I am not sure "running a slant" counts when that player is actually running interference. We are running countless long slow vertical routes, those are not slants IMO. our staple play may be crossing routes with a lot of interference.

 

If not, what is the staple play of our passing game, bubble to Garcon? 

 

Is it a slant if its not the primary? There is not enough time for a quick slant to be a 2nd read. 

[CNHOPPER]

I will as long as you watch tape of our historically inept defense and special teams and stop acting like a 2nd year guy who is on pace for 4,300 yards passing and is outpacing Tom Brady(A guy with a defense that gives up almost 12 points less per game) in nearly every statistical category is our biggest problem this year and in the future.

So in the past, Defenses that have sucked while Offences were able to carry them to a win even though the were outmatched? explain this? Sense you place RG3 on a pedestal, I will also point out the saints, pats, and colts (few other teams )defenses have been horrid before while there offences had to carry them. Im not doing your homework for you kid. .So when you learn to stop being delusional, then you can reply back!

[truskinsfan18]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/22/kyle-shanahan-i-had-no-problems-with-rgiiis-comments/

 

“You guys make a big deal of it, and it’s understandably so,” Shanahan said, via the Washington Post. “I totally understand that. But I try not to pay too much attention to quotes because you never really know what someone was trying to say or if they meant what they said. What helped me was Robert did come — and I didn’t ask him to — but he came in and talked to me on Monday about it and tried to clear it up with me and tried to explain what he meant to say, and what he was meaning. Once I heard him and talked with him, I was fine with it and it made sense to me what he told me, and I had no problems with it.”

 

Well if Kyle doesn't have a problem with it then it really isn't a huge deal....

[ncr2h]

Look at those 2 pictures. Clearly the primary is among the bunched receivers, that are all covered. That is our passing offense in a nutshell. All WRs bunched, going no where but a few yards down field, and covered. 

 

Sure Garcon is open, but that is not the play. Probably why the corner is playing off. Maybe he knows the play. 

 

I am not sure "running a slant" counts when that player is actually running interference. We are running countless long slow vertical routes, those are not slants IMO. our staple play may be crossing routes with a lot of interference.

 

If not, what is the staple play of our passing game, bubble to Garcon? 

 

Is it a slant if its not the primary? There is not enough time for a quick slant to be a 2nd read. 

 

So Kyle designed the blocking scheme to provide a huge hole between Garcon and RG3 so that no defenders could bat down the pass, and to have Helu run a route through the middle of the field so as to keep linebackers from sitting on any routes, and then he made the primary receiver one of 3 random guys running on the opposite side of the field from all of that?

 

Rewatch the play.

 

At the snap, the LG pushes his DE toward the right side of our offensive line.  Was that coincidence, or was it to create the massive passing lane?  When RG3 hits his back step, his helmet is to the left side of the field looking at Garcon.  Was it coincidence?  Helu runs directly at the middle linebacker's zone.  If he was trying to get open, why did he run directly at the LB?  Was it a coincidence that he cut to the right, away from Garcon, so that the linebacker would follow him inside which would therefore open up even more space for the pass to Garcon?

 

What indication do you have that the primary read was not Garcon?  I've got (a) passing lane, ( RG3 looks at Garcon first, and © Helu runs a clearing route on the nearest LB to Garcon.

[SJValleySkinz]

Helu ... helu should be getting at least 5 targets a game. 

 

Give Robert that easy pass to the flat or underneath coverage ... 

 

Nah, let's send him out on a three man vertical route combo with the fullback and backup tight end against 6 DB's. Oh and let's leave nobody in the backfield and call the OC a genius when our QB gets smacked around.

[MartinC]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/22/kyle-shanahan-i-had-no-problems-with-rgiiis-comments/

“You guys make a big deal of it, and it’s understandably so,” Shanahan said, via the Washington Post. “I totally understand that. But I try not to pay too much attention to quotes because you never really know what someone was trying to say or if they meant what they said. What helped me was Robert did come — and I didn’t ask him to — but he came in and talked to me on Monday about it and tried to clear it up with me and tried to explain what he meant to say, and what he was meaning. Once I heard him and talked with him, I was fine with it and it made sense to me what he told me, and I had no problems with it.”

Well if Kyle doesn't have a problem with it then it really isn't a huge deal....

Right. But "QB and OC see eye to eye" does not make for a good story.

This is what happens though when your losing - string 3 wins together and a lot of this noise will go away. I do think there needs to be a lot of thought the rest of the season about how we want our offense to evolve and how we put RGIII in the best place to be successful but that does not need Kyle and Rob to be best buddies but they do have to trust and respect each other.

[GreenMenace]

foles has not even played a full year yet .. i know your happy the eagles beat a pathetic redskins team but get over yourself.

neither has RG3 so whats your point

[EvilMonkeyBoy]

 

 

So in the past, Defenses that have sucked while Offences were able to carry them to a win even though the were outmatched? explain this? Sense you place RG3 on a pedestal, I will also point out the saints, pats, and colts (few other teams )defenses have been horrid before while there offences had to carry them. Im not doing your homework for you kid. .So when you learn to stop being delusional, then you can reply back!

Maybe you should have. 

The years NE won titles: 2001: 17.6 PA(6th) 2003: 14.9 PA(1st) 2004: 16.2 PA(2nd)
The years they went and lost: 2007: 17.1PA(7th) 2011: 21.4 PA(15th)

The year the Colts won: 22.5 PA(23rd)
The year they lost: 19.2 PA(8th)

The year the Saints won: 21.3 PA(20th)
Last year when they had their worst season in years: 28.4(31st)

The 2010 Packers 15.0 PA(2nd)

I don't think I need to even mention the Steelers. 

The Giants had average defense and offense in the regular season, and got hot in the playoffs.

Notice that 1 of the teams you mentioned never won a Super Bowl without a defense that was top 10 in points allowed, and only made it to one where they had a statisically average defense. The Giants were the worst team to ever win, with 25 PA in 2011

Notice that the Colts made a Super Bowl with a top 10 defense in points allowed.

Notice that none of these teams ever gave up THIRTY ONE POINTS a game.

Our team is still scoring 24 Points a game, notice none of the teams mentioned ever gave up 24 points a game.

Notice that the other teams that are giving up 30 points a game are Jacksonville and Minnesota.

Thanks for calling me delusional for not sharing your point that ignores the actual record of what happened. I'm the delusional one for thinking teams that give up 30 points a game are going to struggle to find wins.

Got it.

neither has RG3 so whats your point

 
1 game in his whole career is an NFL starter, but you're cute. Really you are.

[DieHardSkinsfanNJ]

neither has RG3 so whats your point

hes playd a lot more games than foles , no one in the nfc east is going anywhere every team is **** this year including mine, its going to take foles playing more games against quality teams to prove he is the future.

[darrelgreenie]

Simple means that the OC served the open receiver up to the QB on a silver platter, with 0 brain work involved.  Meaning, the playcall was such that the Oline would open a passing lane, and the routes were designed in such a way that there was a receiver wide open within that passing lane.

Then we have different views of a what constitutes a simple pass. The degree of execution is the main component for a simple pass play. Route depth/type, depth of QB drop 3-5-7, QB action ball handling, movement, type of throw bullet, lob, touch are all play critical roles in whether a pass play is simple or not.

 

...the only one shutting down our passing game was Griffin.  As an added bonus, I noticed that we ran 3 plays in which the primary receiver was running a slant route.  On those first 4 drives, we ran slant routes roughly 30-40% of the time.

Yeah, very, very 'roughly'. In the other thread only 1 of the passes you mentioned in pass plays 1-7 was a slant. And I was asking you in general not for this game. So I'll ask again, do you think slants are a big part of the passing game this season?

 

So lets assume that Griffin continues to miss the reads/throws from the Eagles game? Should Kyle keep with a gameplan and play concepts that aren't working? Assuming of course you think there are throws that Griffin can make.

[darrelgreenie]

...What this leads to is pressing.  And that's what he's doing.  He's trying to be "too" perfect. He's hesitating.  he's not trusting himself, and he's over-thinking things. Which causes the game to "speed up" instead of "slow down."

 

So, I think that the only way that this gets fixed is in the off season. When everybody can just relax. He can go to Texas with his receivers, and throw a million balls.  He can work with the OC and HC.  They can get him back to even.

 

I just don't think there's much that can be done until the off-season.  He's just going to have to keep going out there and trying. Learning.  Hopefully being humble, taking his lumps, and going forward.  

 

Long answer to a short question. 

I disagree almost completely mainly because I don't think Griffin is missing significant number of reads/throws in the first place, but interesting narrative nonetheless.

Also, I wonder why you mentioning Griffin thinking he could be a pocket passer? Its not like he creates the strategy or gameplan.

 

I think Griffin is fine. Early on til about the Lions game he was rusty but since then I think he's been fine physically. And its not like he wasn't throwing during the offseason. He was throwing early and took first team reps during training camp.

 

I think the staff was not prepared for how well defenses (especially NFC east) would adjust to the pistol read-option portion of their offense. And because ~55% of the passing game was based on play-action the lack of a counter and continued lack of adaptation has hurt the passing game. Their bread and butter play action passing concepts aren't there and I imagine its disconcerting for Griffin. I think the rhythm drop back aspect of Griffin's game remains woefully under developed. And on the whole the offense lacks identity and seems more focued on creating being plays then being efficient. When I watch the games like Denver, Chargers, Bears, Vikings I believe the offense has turned a corner because of the shift in gameplan but the changes don't persist. I think we could beat the 49ers and win some games down the stretch if there is a shift in how the opening gameplans are handled. But, I am not hopeful.

[darrelgreenie]

 ....However, I would love to see them run a lot of stuff, out of a lot of different formations, where he gets the ball out of his hand in 2.3 seconds or less....

 

...But that's where they need to focus.  Just get the ball out quick.  read/react.  There are probably going to be a bunch of throws that are inaccurate.  But you have to go through that before it gets better. 

Eureka, finally, he's starting to see the light...step into the light VOR slide.

Kinda like the opening of the Vikings game? RB sceen, hitch, hitch, WR screen, shallow crosser

(1) We are running tons of slants.

We do not run 'tons' of slants and that's even including the recent up tick in use.