FA: *TJAX*Davis, Clingan, RJ, McCoy, DJ, RC, McGlynn, EJ, Moore, Jordan, BMeri, Rogers, Hatcher, Geathers, Sharpton, Porter, Hayward, Lauvao, Roberts

[TheGoodBits]

Absoutely no reason to bring back Orakpo. Rob Jackson can easily replace him. Most of the orakpo sacks come against trash Qbs

Rak played very well today.

[Conn]

I look at our entire roster, and who, in an ideal World, you'd want starting going forward, and this is all I got:

Robert, Trent, Garcon, Morris, Young and Reed on offense. (Maybe Hurt and Gettis at guard too.).

Hall and Kerrigan on defense. (Hopefully adding Amerson, Chase, Jenkins, Rambo and Thomas to that over time. But as of right now, just those two.).

The lack of top tier talent to take this on to the next level is criminal 4 years in. We have good young depth. But with the best will in the World, they aren't guys that you'd consistently want starting if you REALLY want to take this on.

This roster is still a sub-standard mess when it comes to REALLY competing with the top teams.

Hail.

Totally agree. Shoot, you know I do buddy. Couldn't have said it better myself.

In a lot of ways, I don't really blame Shanahan for the fact that we're kind of a "high floor, low ceiling" team. That's the team he set out to build, possibly until this most recent draft where he took some risks--coming into a situation with a shallow, top-heavy, old, untalented roster, the best way to turn around the culture and the team was to fill it with safe, hard working guys. Unfortunately he hasn't been able to keep them disciplined on the field, but his entire plan revolved around drafting solid, high character, hard working leadership types with plenty of starting experience in college. Not explosive playmakers or speed merchants or difference makers with other questions marks, or raw players filled with potential. Just safe, "high floor, low ceiling" guys that would mesh well. And so, that explains why our roster is the way it is.

In short, considering a new regime could come to D.C. with the franchise QB and some other offensive pieces already in place and TONS of cap space to spend on their own guys, as well as plenty of decent (if boring) young depth, Shanahan may have been a great "Steward" for this roster. He was able to pull us out of the abyss, but not enough to lift us to the highest reaches of success we now aspire to. And that's fine. That can be for the next guy.

[Rufus T Firefly]

This is irrelevant. Someone else sarcastically made a comment about All-Pros. Nobody on this board is saying that Shanahan is a poor drafter because he's not picking up multiple All-Pros after the 2nd round. So don't moved he goalposts for this discussion.

Another thing, I know many people on this board have been incredibly critical of the Patriots drafting over the years, and believe that in many ways they've succeeded despite tons of poor draft choices made by Belichick (with a few brilliant picks and Tom Brady throw in, of course). I wouldn't put the Pats in the top-4 of drafting organizations.

I'd go, in no particular order: Seattle, GB, SF, KC, and maybe the Bengals in there somewhere, they're great at collecting talent and working it in. In past years PIT and BAL in their prime years have been included, but they're in a bit of a slump as they age and don't effectively re-stock, so I'm not sure I'd count them as of now.

You made a comment about Pro Bowls above ( I accidentally said All Pros). Either way, the point which was right there to be disused, was that other teams, even supposed great franchises, haven't been getting more out of draft picks from the 3rd on.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

 

You've said this before, but it's an overreaction. Basically, anyone we have who isn't a star, you're saying isn't starting caliber. Great teams have mediocre starters, too.

 

Honestly man, who would you add? 

 

Hank? Developing into a solid #3, but not much more. Outside of him and Pierre there's NOTHING at receiver. On the O-line, outside of Trent, there's next to nothing. Hurt and Gettis potentially inside. Lichtensteiger's regressed badly this year. Compton I love but will probably never be anything other than solid depth. 

 

D fronts a mess. The big contract guys need to go, and then there's just solid young depth behind. The LB corp has nothing stand-out. Riley with a stud alongside him maybe. But your still needing someone to compliment Kerrigan. Amerson has impressed and hopefully steps up to compliment Hall. But he's still got it all to prove. I like Wilson. But he's quality depth in an ideal World. And the safety slots it's all unproven youth. 

 

What starters am I missing? 

 

Hail. 

[Rufus T Firefly]

No, I just don't see solid starters from our group. I see talented youth, that maybe with far better coaching may develop into solid starters. 

 

But as we currently stand, they aren't at that standard to be consistently relied on for me. 

 

Hail. 

 

*Edit* That's presuming, which I agree with, you'd cut ties with Bowen and Cofield. (Carriker's not coming back.). With a proper 34 nose, they'd be fine starting at end. J.Jenkins is looking more and more like a bust with the passing week. 

No, I wouldn't get rid of Cofield. And Jenkins is solid, just a 3-4 End who ties up tacklers, nothing spectacular.

[Conn]

You made a comment about Pro Bowls above ( I accidentally said All Pros). Either way, the point which was right there to be disused, was that other teams, even supposed great franchises, haven't been getting more out of draft picks from the 3rd on.

Yes, they have. Morris is our only impact player drafted after the 3rd round. That's awful.

And if you consider average starters (on our squad) like Riley and Hankerson to be great picks, then we'll just never agree.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Yes, they have. Morris is our only impact player drafted after the 3rd round. That's awful.

And if you consider average starters (on our squad) like Riley and Hankerson to be great picks, then we'll just never agree.

 

You should take a look (or wait until I find the time to format it all) at his career history, both drafted and FA, in the OL and safety positions. 

 

All those that seem to think he'll spend in either area with the additional cap money are having him going against a career trend of doing almost the complete opposite. 

 

Hail. 

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

You should take a look (or wait until I find the time to format it all) at his career history, both drafted and FA, in the OL and safety positions. 

 

All those that seem to think he'll spend in either area with the additional cap money are having him going against a career trend of doing almost the complete opposite. 

 

Hail. 

Well, then he just has to go.

 

Can't deal with another year of this crap.

 

 

I want a younger coach who can grow with this team. 

[Rufus T Firefly]

 

 

 

Honestly man, who would you add? 

 

Hank? Developing into a solid #3, but not much more. Outside of him and Pierre there's NOTHING at receiver. On the O-line, outside of Trent, there's next to nothing. Hurt and Gettis potentially inside. Lichtensteiger's regressed badly this year. Compton I love but will probably never be anything other than solid depth. 

 

D fronts a mess. The big contract guys need to go, and then there's just solid young depth behind. The LB corp has nothing stand-out. Riley with a stud alongside him maybe. But your still needing someone to compliment Kerrigan. Amerson has impressed and hopefully steps up to compliment Hall. But he's still got it all to prove. I like Wilson. But he's quality depth in an ideal World. And the safety slots it's all unproven youth. 

 

What starters am I missing? 

 

Hail. 

 

Well, let's combine our team with the Patriots. Forget about who fits what system, just find the best starting 22.

 

On Offense, Morris, Young, Garcon and Williams are obviously starters, but you can easily make the case for a couple of our guys on the line, as NE has two pretty weak starters there.

 

On D, Cofield gets a spot either as DT in a 4-3 or End in a 3-4. And Orakpo and Kerrigan are starting too. I'd probably go with a 4-3, Cofield next to Wilfork, and Orakpo and Kerrigan with Chandler Jones as my ends and one OLB spot. Probably rotate in Jenkins for some size. Their LBs are better than Riley. In the backfield, Hall starts. 

 

So maybe 10 starters out of the 22 are our guys. And that's without Griffin or Reed.

 

There's a good deal of work to be done, it's just not quite as dramatic as you make it sound. There are solid starters, it's more things like Riley, who's a good starter, but shouldn't be your best ILB. You need to put a stud next to him, not find two new starters. Likewise a stud NT makes the DL suddenly a good unit.

Yes, they have. Morris is our only impact player drafted after the 3rd round. That's awful.

And if you consider average starters (on our squad) like Riley and Hankerson to be great picks, then we'll just never agree.

I'm really not interested in debating against hyperbole, straw men and unsubstantiated statements. 

[Havenless]

Hall is only 29? God that guy's been in the league forever.

[zoony]

Here is our list of needs in order of priority, IMO

1. FS

2. ILB

3. CB

4. Guard

5. WR

6. DLine

To spend a lot of money on Fitzgerald would be foolish IMO. He is on the downside of his career and his position is not as high on the list of priorities

Here is our list of needs in order of priority, IMO

1. FS

2. ILB

3. CB

4. Guard

5. WR

6. DLine

To spend a lot of money on Fitzgerald would be foolish IMO. He is on the downside of his career and his position is not as high on the list of priorities

Also, it seems that if we are savvy in this years draft we could get 2 starters, maybe a FS and an ILB.

[Rufus T Firefly]

Here is our list of needs in order of priority, IMO

1. FS

2. ILB

3. CB

4. Guard

5. WR

6. DLine

To spend a lot of money on Fitzgerald would be foolish IMO. He is on the downside of his career and his position is not as high on the list of priorities

Also, it seems that if we are savvy in this years draft we could get 2 starters, maybe a FS and an ILB.

If Hall re-signs, I wouldn't consider CB a high priority.

 

If we do go after one, Alteraun Verner would be my choice.

 

After Thomas and Rambo, I think this year's new Safeties need to be vets, not draft choices.

[nemocystem]

We need to be smart though. We have money & we'll let probably 70% of our f/a's go in the offseason, so I think we cm can maybe afford to get 2-3 expensive f/a's & then we'll have to use the rest to fill out depth with capable talent...preferably young-ish. In reality...I think we need to set a good base & add Draft picks with Helu or Morris (love Morris, but he'd be a HUGE chip come Draft time).

I say we keep Orakpo & Hall unless someone totally over-pays or drives up cost. Then we should look at Byrd & Talib...though I'm with most in believing he won't leave NE unless it's for stupid money. Jenkins would be a good 2nd option, & then perhaps we could make a run at Fitzgerald. We need to strengthen the O-line & D-line, but I don't believe the quickest answers are in f/a.

Let's face it...we need to spend like 3-4 early/mid-round picks on both trenches & develop...otherwise we'll be in the same boat.

I really wish we could get in that 1st round to get a game changing MLB or DB...or even Marquise Lee. Though that stuff never happens the way I want.

Here it is folks...we're still 2-3 years away IF we get competent coaching. If...

::edit::

Also...let's not forget Punter & PK need to be a priority somewhere.

[Conn]

Here is our list of needs in order of priority, IMO

1. FS

2. ILB

3. CB

4. Guard

5. WR

6. DLine

To spend a lot of money on Fitzgerald would be foolish IMO. He is on the downside of his career and his position is not as high on the list of priorities

I like your list zoony.

Although I'd argue that DL should be much higher--the ripple effect a pocket-crushing NT or DE would have on our pass rush specialist OLB's and our secondary would be huge. Kerrigan/Orakpo/Jackson/whoever we pony up to keep will look much better when they rush 6 yards straight up field if the QB can't just effortlessly step up into a clean pocket. One penetrating DL will do wonders for this defense, even if by some bizarre, unlucky twists of fate we fielded exactly the same crew as this year, plus that DL, we'd be in much better shape. Of course that won't happen, we'll add and subtract other pieces as well. But the ripple effect from being able to crush the pocket would be enormous.

I think I'd put ILB and FS next on the list. A rangy, fast ILB who can cover would be huge for us. Being able to hold TE's in check would make a world of difference.

Fortifying our defense down the middle like that (DL--ILB--FS) would make our CB's much less important and I think Hall/Amerson would look pretty damn good.

After that I agree, OG (and RT) should be the priority.

Somewhere in there, you just keep your eye out for a WR who can win jump balls and outmuscle coverage. Preferably 6'3" or taller.

We need to be smart though. We have money & we'll let probably 70% of our f/a's go in the offseason, so I think we cm can maybe afford to get 2-3 expensive f/a's & then we'll have to use the rest to fill out depth with capable talent...preferably young-ish. In reality...I think we need to set a good base & add Draft picks with Helu or Morris (love Morris, but he'd be a HUGE chip come Draft time).

I say we keep Orakpo & Hall unless someone totally over-pays or drives up cost. Then we should look at Byrd & Talib...though I'm with most in believing he won't leave NE unless it's for stupid money. Jenkins would be a good 2nd option, & then perhaps we could make a run at Fitzgerald. We need to strengthen the O-line & D-line, but I don't believe the quickest answers are in f/a.

Let's face it...we need to spend like 3-4 early/mid-round picks on both trenches & develop...otherwise we'll be in the same boat.

I really wish we could get in that 1st round to get a game changing MLB or DB...or even Marquise Lee. Though that stuff never happens the way I want.

Here it is folks...we're still 2-3 years away IF we get competent coaching. If...

RB's, especially 2-down guys who don't catch passes, are worth less than ever in the NFL. Morris is not worth much at all around the NFL.

[nemocystem]

I disagree...5.2 ypc says differently. I could see a number of teams putting up good scratch for him.

Still, not my first choice of scenarios, but I could easily see a Helu or Morris + a 4th or so for an early-mid first. Could still garner a 2nd all alone or perhaps a 2nd + 4th.

[skinny21]

Um, I'd expect, in four years, a pro bowl caliber (in the raw sense of the term, regardless of the joke it has turned into) guy from one of those rounds. Maybe even multiple, if I want to get crazy.

More importantly, Shanahan's thing is trading back to accumulate late round picks to build depth. If he was even remotely successful at accumulating these late rounds guys, our ST's wouldn't suck serious ass. That's where you get ST's playmakers, the late round depth picks. We can't even do that correctly.

You're blind if you don't think drafting has been part of the problem. Or in denial. Or your bar for success is just set really low, which is an affliction I myself suffered from until fairly recently.

Riley is not a good starter. He's a body. Hankerson is not solid, he's average. Maybe below average. To me, a guy like Decker is "solid". He makes plays but drops some passes and he's not a game breaker. Hankerson is a disappointment. Morris is one of the only exceptions to what I'm talking about, and Shanahan has always been known for finding late round gem RB's. Helu is a role player, which is fine for a 4th rounder but not great.

What is this other "good depth" you speak of?

I'm going to copy my post from the last page, which may have been missed because it was the last one before the new page. Answers a lot of what you're saying.

You're not kidding. It's almost sad.

Too early to tell with a bunch of guys, though you're right that the 1st couple drafts don't have that much to be happy about.

On the bright side, guys like K. Robinson, Crawford, Thomas, Gettis, T. Compton, Rambo and both Jenkins' still have a chance to shine going forward. And then there are the contributors - Royster, Paul, Nield, Hurt etc. Definitely disappointing that no one has stepped up to be a good starter yet though.

[Conn]

I disagree...5.2 ypc says differently. I could see a number of teams putting up good scratch for him.

Still, not my first choice of scenarios, but I could easily see a Helu or Morris + a 4th or so for an early-mid first. Could still garner a 2nd all alone or perhaps a 2nd + 4th.

That's never happening. Ever. First narrow it down to teams that run the ZBS, where Morris would surely be effective. Then narrow it down to teams that need a RB, bad enough to trade something worth more to us than Morris. Then, forget all of that because the majority of NFL teams just don't value RB's that way, especially when they barely play on passing downs. Morris is perfect for us, in this offense. That doesn't mean he's worth much around the league in trade.

[skinny21]

Last I heard from Crawford he was doing an interview on 106.7 the fan a few weekends ago and he is well ahead of schedule in his recovery.

Great news!

[Ynot]

We need speed just look at KC defense win or loose against Denver,  They have tremendous speed.  Did you notice on passing downs their line looks like speedy Line Backers not D line on the Rushing.  You need speed...  

 

The eagles have speed at Both WR.   We need a true speedster to go with Garcon and Hankerson and Reid as the possesion guys.  Heck Hankerson can still get open as well deep.  But imagine a guy like any one of the eagles wide outs on this team.   

 

SPEED AND MORE SPEED

[Conn]

Henry Melton could be the kind of pass-rushing DT that would fit perfectly here depending on what scheme a new DC would run.

[Rufus T Firefly]

Henry Melton could be the kind of pass-rushing DT that would fit perfectly here depending on what scheme a new DC would run.

I was wondering how Greg Hardy would do in a 3-4?

[Dark Acre]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.  Morris is perhaps the best player on this team -- at least in the sense of production at his position.  Who's having a better year on the team?  You trade Morris:  1) you have no guarantee of getting a player who performs as well as Morris at whatever position you draft the player; 2) you will have to pay more because you're going to get a higher draft pick; 3) you're going to have to find a replacement -- yeah, yeah, Shanahan can find pro-bowl caliber RBs in the 6th round every year; 4) apparently everyone loves Morris (chemistry); and 5) we may have a new coaching staff -- give them a dependable ground game.  Morris is one of the few bright spots on the team and you want to get rid of him to draft whom?  he's not an aging vet, he's not a guy who gets stupid penalties on a routine basis, and he's not a cancer in the locker room. 

[Conn]

I was wondering how Greg Hardy would do in a 3-4?

Looks like CAR is pushing hard to re-sign him and has more than enough room to do so, so I'd be surprised if he's available. He's light for a 3-4 DE but not too much. But he's more of an OLB convert candidate, which would seem like a waste, having to do that again. I think he's a much better fit in a 4-3, and if we do switch back a 4-3 I think we have plenty of DE candidates depending on what we do with Orakpo/Jackson. I think an interior DL is definitely our biggest priority on that side of the ball.

For what it's worth, as a college prospect teams were looking at him as an OLB in a 3-4 or a DE in a 4-3, so that kinda backs this up.

[Rufus T Firefly]

Looks like CAR is pushing hard to re-sign him and has more than enough room to do so, so I'd be surprised if he's available. He's a little light for a 3-4 DE but not too much. I think he's a much better fit in a 4-3, and if we do switch back a 4-3 I think we have plenty of DE candidates depending on what we do with Orakpo/Jackson. I think an interior DL is definitely our biggest priority on that side of the ball.

He likely won't hit the market.

 

It was just a thought I was playing with. He is a little on the small side, as you said, but then again might provide a real pass rush from the 3 man line. And then you could move him back to OLB from time to time (especially if Orakpo goes), and would allow for some easy switches to a 4-3. Just seems like a way to create a lot of different looks for the front. I thought the idea was somewhat intriguing.

 

But again, with the places we need to spend money, probably not something to seriously consider.

[nemocystem]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Morris is perhaps the best player on this team -- at least in the sense of production at his position. Who's having a better year on the team? You trade Morris: 1) you have no guarantee of getting a player who performs as well as Morris at whatever position you draft the player; 2) you will have to pay more because you're going to get a higher draft pick; 3) you're going to have to find a replacement -- yeah, yeah, Shanahan can find pro-bowl caliber RBs in the 6th round every year; 4) apparently everyone loves Morris (chemistry); and 5) we may have a new coaching staff -- give them a dependable ground game. Morris is one of the few bright spots on the team and you want to get rid of him to draft whom? he's not an aging vet, he's not a guy who gets stupid penalties on a routine basis, and he's not a cancer in the locker room.

First...I'm not saying it's my first choice or even my 3rd or 4th. But if you gave up one of our RB's to add youth + skill at 1 or possibly 2 other positions I don't see how this doesn't make good business sense.

I absolutely love Morris...but if you keep Helu, change the offense, keep the Shanahan's, & Draft another 6th round keeper...The value is not debatable...especially when you consider that we need way more help at other positions on this team.

And people seriously need to take things into context...you act as though I'm advocating a rush to get Morris out of town. This is a purely philosophical/hypothetical supposition in a thread based on such a premise. I get that we all love Morris, he's a stud, a total ZBS runner...blah blah blah. Still doesn't take the value away from the fact nor the need to fill other positions.

Finally...I prefaced this as a preclusion to acknowledgement of a quick-er fix scenario. Otherwise we're a rebuild project...again.