Chalk Talk: Rush Outside Backers And Our Dilemma

[TSO]

I really, really hope Rob Jackson and Jarvis Jenkins coming back is going to have the type of effect on our D that I think they can. I could see Jarvis Jenkins really being a big factor in stuffing the run, which leads to more obvious passing downs, which leads to Rob Jackson being on the field with Kerrigan and Orakpo and gives us more options in coverage.

 

I think Jackson's best skill is his ability to show blitz and drop back quickly into lanes the QB wants to throw quickly to. He just has a great feel for it.  

[DC9]

You missed the sarcasm entirely.

What I was getting at is Merriweather tackles like Portis use to block, hammer contact, without wrapping up.

Loosen up your bow tie man, it was a truthful joke.

 

Ah, that's pretty good

 

The only time I'm in a bow-tie is when I'm shirtless.  But it is Friday, my brother.  Cheers

That's why I think we need to get more creative with the how in the blitz rather than the who.

 

In the words of the not-so-great Joe Buck, we need to make them "solve the rubix cube" like we did last year.  Plain and simple.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Ah, that's pretty good

 

The only time I'm in a bow-tie is when I'm shirtless.  But it is Friday, my brother.  Cheers  .....

 

The only time I'm in a tie period is when I'm in Court. 

 

Not that I make a habit of being in Court ..... Mr C will appreciate that more when he get's back from his Asian adventure. 

 

Hail. 

[Koolblue13]

Please dont ever mention Hall at FS again. You're better than that ols. He's a gambler, not a security blanket and he is by far and away our best corner, having a great year. Putting him at FS greatly hurts us at CB and does nothing to improve the safety position. Sorry, thats a sore spot lol

[KDawg]

As bad as Hall may be back there he may still be > our other safeties lol

[Koolblue13]

As bad as Hall may be back there he may still be > our other safeties lol

although I do agree with that, the drop off from losing our only starting caliber corner would be huge

[skinny21]

Totally random (and ain't gonna happen), but I wonder how Amerson would look at FS?

I'd like to see cover 2 with our safeties playing shallow and our corners pressing. Focus on taking away the short stuff and buying our pass rushers time to get home. 'Course we need to tackle, but that's the case regardless.

[DC9]

I don't know if Hall is better at FS than what we are doing now KDawg.

 

I mean.  We're talking a hockey rating of -2 in only 2 shifts of work.  2 plays at FS, two TDs given up. 

 

That's the face of terrible.

 

And I also agree with KB, that weakens the secondary as a whole.

[KDawg]

I don't know if Hall is better at FS than what we are doing now KDawg.

I mean. We're talking a hockey rating of -2 in only 2 shifts of work. 2 plays at FS, two TDs given up.

That's the face of terrible.

And I also agree with KB, that weakens the secondary as a whole.

It's also the equivalent of judging a pitcher on two pitches that got hit out of the park. Small sample sizes are really no kind of indicator of anything. And I'm not sure how much it weakens us at CB. Wilson/Amerson is a solid pairing in the NFL.

I'm not going to really put up too much of a stink either way, as I don't think that change would completely change the dynamic of the team. A simpler change would be using more hybrid coverages and more variety in the how when it comes to blitzing...

[darrelgreenie]

Didn't Pittsburgh generally play with two pass rushing linebackers?

 

I think we could play a 4-3 with Jackson, Fletcher and Riley at LB

Yes. I don't think 2 rushing LBs is the main problem with our defense. I think it starts up front on DL where imo our base package lacks penetration/pass rush and isn't stout against the run without an 8 man box. But I digress...

 

One of the under discussed differences between our defense and the Steelers is scheme knowledge.

We're running a fax of their scheme with coaches that don't understand the scheme. Last year there was a thread focused on Rams/Bengals pass defense and my personal overwhelming and sustaining take away was our LBs don't understand or have clear zone assignments/rules. Kdawg mentioned pattern matching/read but I often see our LBs simply spot drop unaware. I believe that is a coaching issue more then a player/talent issue. I think Slowick is coaching 34 LBs in a LeBeau style scheme without the knowledge/guidance of LeBeau/Capers...

[KDawg]

I think you missed the point, dg.(which is likely my fault, to be honest)

The problem isn't the two rush LBs in and of itself. The problem is the cast surrounding them doesn't support having two rush LBs.

[darrelgreenie]

I suppose one way of doing that really could be moving Hall to safety and letting Wilson/Amerson play the corner spot. Meriweather/Doughty can play the SS role for now.

 

I'm not incredibly comfortable with Hall back there, and given a better safety situation I wouldn't ever suggest it... But he's not a dumb player, and he's athletic enough. I worry about him filling the alley hard, but it could work for us.

 

Having said that, I'm sure it's been tried and ultimately decided against.

 

*shrug*

I've always thought Hall had the physical skillset and playmaking mentality to be a good FS but I worry about his discipline and intellect. I wouldn't mind seeing him get enough snaps to have a concrete answer if it could work or not. If it could it would make for a versatile secondary rolling Hall down sometimes to cover the slot or blanket a TE in man.

 

For the life I don't understand many of personnel moves. Biggers, whom I like, was the odd man out preseason/training camp didn't here much about him positive/negative. Now according to Morris he's our swiss army knife DB that can play all positions? I would much rather see Pugh/Gumbs get there shot a FS. I'm tired of these hybrid secondary combinations with DBs that puts DBs that lack the skillset or experience back there at FS.

 

Off topic: Have you looked at how our front plays in respect to 1-gap or 2-gap?

If we're going have Cofield at NT I think we be better playing 1-gap 34.

I think you missed the point, dg.

The problem isn't the two rush LBs in and of itself. The problem is the cast surrounding them doesn't support having two rush LBs.

Nah I get it just disagree and was responding directly to that posters question before going off on a tangent.

[maxiumone]

KDawg great post.  I have not read through all the responses but with Jackson coming back do you think you will see more of Kerrigan's hand in the dirt with both Orakpo and Jackson on the field?   Just spitballing while enjoying a few drinks tonight and thank you sir for the great breakdown

[PlayAction]

Totally random (and ain't gonna happen), but I wonder how Amerson would look at FS?

 

For what it's worth, Charley Casserly thinks that neither Hall nor Wilson are starting quality CBs anymore.  If he's right then Amerson is the only CB on the team with significant upside potential.  Amerson needs to stick at CB to develop the on-field recognition of plays to improve in the future.

[PlayAction]

The problem isn't the two rush LBs in and of itself. The problem is the cast surrounding them doesn't support having two rush LBs.

 

The chicken and the egg again.  Drafting BPA even when the player fits an area of need doesn't guarantee the skill sets of the players as a whole will mesh perfectly. 

 

In your original post you mentioned the need for starting caliber safety, upgrades at CB and a true NT to make the two rush LB work well.  I don't think that many upgrades are possible in a short time frame.  Orakpo and Jackson are both up for contracts.  If Jackson is going to see more playing time he's going to want more pay.  Do you invest in these players or give up on the two rush LB approach and upgrade the safety/CB/NT positions more quickly? 

[chow184]

I don't think having 2 rush OLB is our issue, it's a strength if anything.

 

I'd say our issue lies in the secondary's constant lapses and the ILB's inability to cover. Riley is not a cover LBer, and Fletcher is hit or miss, he still has the wheels to keep up with most TE's, he just sorely lacks the height and is easily out rebounded. Fletcher just lacks the strength to get off blocks right now. If he gets touched, he's out of the play.

 

When you couple a struggling secondary with LB's ill equipped for pass coverage with a coach who likes to play cover 1, it's a recipe for disaster. Haslett has constantly put people in 1-1 situations and they keep getting beat, only last week when he played more cover 2 did we actually have success.

 

Perry Riley is a great thumper in the 3-4, he has the ability to take on OL much better than Fletcher at this point in his career and make stops at the LoS, and he's a solid blitzer. If anything, I'd like to see Rob Jackson playing ILB as he has a natural feel for zone coverage and the height to contest passes with the bigger TE's of the league.

 

 

Ideally I'd like to see

ROLB-Orakpo
ILB-Jackson
ILB-Riley
LOLB-Kerrigan

 

and sub Fletcher in as the situation see's fit, while playing more cover 2

[KDawg]

Guys read the OP. Please.

[Lavarleap56]

I've always thought Hall had the physical skillset and playmaking mentality to be a good FS but I worry about his discipline and intellect. I wouldn't mind seeing him get enough snaps to have a concrete answer if it could work or not. If it could it would make for a versatile secondary rolling Hall down sometimes to cover the slot or blanket a TE in man.

 

For the life I don't understand many of personnel moves. Biggers, whom I like, was the odd man out preseason/training camp didn't here much about him positive/negative. Now according to Morris he's our swiss army knife DB that can play all positions? I would much rather see Pugh/Gumbs get there shot a FS. I'm tired of these hybrid secondary combinations with DBs that puts DBs that lack the skillset or experience back there at FS.

 

Off topic: Have you looked at how our front plays in respect to 1-gap or 2-gap?

If we're going have Cofield at NT I think we be better playing 1-gap 34.

Nah I get it just disagree and was responding directly to that posters question before going off on a tangent.

 

 

First off great post Kdawg.. I've seen the same issues as you laid out in your OP, and they are maddening. Skins are basically running an old school 5-2 instead of a true 3-4 at times.The defense lacks variety up front and makes it easy on QB's to diagnose and attack. I have a lot of film grabs that would fit your post as well. 

 

DG- Agree with your post as well, the search for hybrid players is a little old. I like Biggers but  he's better off at CB. 

 

I have been going over a lot film of the Browns, Patriots, Chargers,Texans, and Steelers to pick apart whats wrong with the skins D. The thing that stands out is HasletT is too predictable in his front 7, okie fronts are 2 gap dominant, nickle are 1 gap dominant..Not a lot of variety or mixing it up like I see with the defenses above. It's like Haslett copied the playbook Lou Spanos brought from Pitt and just calls plays, not a lot of scheme progression or adding new stuff to combat the new school offenses. 

 

I think the DL isn't really solid up front 2 gaping vs the run.Cofield,Bowen,and Jenkins are built to be 1 gap players who penetrate gaps with their quickness. Think the defense suffers using them 2 gap/read &reacting. I really like Ray Horton and his combo fronts & how he protects his ILB's vs Haslett who leaves them exposed most of the time. 

[PlayAction]

Here's an abbreviation of what you said:

Personnel is the Issue

"With those restrictions lifted, it's possible that we can upgrade our defense to fit what we have. At that point, if we can somehow manage to upgrade positions such as safety, and keep Rak, Kerrigan and Jackson on the roster, we become much more dangerous."

So what do you do if you can't get a supporting cast for the 3 LBs? Skins drafted two safeties, had hopes for Merriweather and a possible return of Tanard Jackson. Yet safety is still an issue. Amerson should be better but Hall/Wilson may be worse. Perhaps one or two of the older DLmen and an ILB need to be replaced by draft pick or free agent money thereby taking away some of the opportunities for a new S (money also has to be devoted to Rak and Jackson).

[KDawg]

Yes, PA, that's what I said. Basically our "ecosystem" doesn't support having two rush OLBs. An upgrade at NT would be great, so that Cofield can demoralize defenses at end, but that's a VERY difficult upgrade to make. Safety and ILB are two spots where we can upgrade much easier, especially safety.

If we want to use Rak and Kerrigan as the OLBs we have to support them.

[Voice_of_Reason]

I was going to try and push "Bobby 4-bits".  Thoughts? 

 

I'd go for it. 

[MrJL]

Here's an abbreviation of what you said:

Personnel is the Issue

"With those restrictions lifted, it's possible that we can upgrade our defense to fit what we have. At that point, if we can somehow manage to upgrade positions such as safety, and keep Rak, Kerrigan and Jackson on the roster, we become much more dangerous."

So what do you do if you can't get a supporting cast for the 3 LBs? Skins drafted two safeties, had hopes for Merriweather and a possible return of Tanard Jackson. Yet safety is still an issue. Amerson should be better but Hall/Wilson may be worse. Perhaps one or two of the older DLmen and an ILB need to be replaced by draft pick or free agent money thereby taking away some of the opportunities for a new S (money also has to be devoted to Rak and Jackson).

 

 

well, what are we going to be trying to upgrade in the offseason?  we'll be returning to salary cap parity with the rest of the league.  We'll probably allow Fred Davis to go and either Hall or Wilson. Fletcher will probably retire, Adam Carriker will likely be gone, Chris Chester may go to be replaced by a younger cheaper guy already on the roster.  Cofield and Bowen aren't that old, Jenkins, Neild and Baker are young.  In the secondary for guys being developed we have Amerson, Rambo, Minnefield and Thomas at least.  We basically have no reason that we can't build around those guys, unless you're assuming front office ineptitude.  

 

The only glaring need on offense is RT.

[Laron Burgundy]

I really don't know if we're going to resign Rak. I

Totally random (and ain't gonna happen), but I wonder how Amerson would look at FS?

I'd like to see cover 2 with our safeties playing shallow and our corners pressing. Focus on taking away the short stuff and buying our pass rushers time to get home. 'Course we need to tackle, but that's the case regardless.

Amerson was mainly an off-man corner in college. Not much experience in zone from what I remember. Wouldn't move him to safety, he was also not a top notch tackler and would take poor angles. That would get exacerbated if he had to play with a lot of space.

[PlayAction]

well, what are we going to be trying to upgrade in the offseason?  we'll be returning to salary cap parity with the rest of the league.  We'll probably allow Fred Davis to go and either Hall or Wilson. Fletcher will probably retire, Adam Carriker will likely be gone, Cofield and Bowen aren't that old, Jenkins, Neild and Baker are young.  In the secondary for guys being developed we have Amerson, Rambo, Minnefield and Thomas at least.  We basically have no reason that we can't build around those guys, unless you're assuming front office ineptitude.  

 The only glaring need on offense is RT.

No, I'm not assuming front office ineptitude. Bowen, Cofield, Golston, and Carriker are all 29-30 now. That's not old yet but the front office may need to acquire players now so that they are ready to step in in a couple of years. Rambo and Thomas are unknowns - perhaps one will step up as a reliable backup or perhaps neither will be on the team. Minnefield is on the practice squad so assuming he's good enough to build around is quite a stretch. Agreed that either Wilson or Hall will be gone and the Skins will probably have to devote either a higher round pick or significant free agent money to acquire a starting CB. Assume pick or free agent money for a Safety. Assume pick or free agent money for an ILB. Yes they have cap room but some will be devoted to LBs Jackson and Orakpo. I don't think the Skins will sign a new contract for WR Morgan and may need to replace backup LeRib. Depending upon where you assign the picks it's not so easy to upgrade the supporting cast for the two Rush LB approach while filling other needs. My basic question has been whether there are fewer must upgrades to the supporting cast IF you drop the two Rush LB approach (i.e., don't resign Orakpo) and substitute a rush/drop back LB.

[MrJL]

No, I'm not assuming front office ineptitude. Bowen, Cofield, Golston, and Carriker are all 29-30 now. That's not old yet but the front office may need to acquire players now so that they are ready to step in in a couple of years. Rambo and Thomas are unknowns - perhaps one will step up as a reliable backup or perhaps neither will be on the team. Minnefield is on the practice squad so assuming he's good enough to build around is quite a stretch. Agreed that either Wilson or Hall will be gone and the Skins will probably have to devote either a higher round pick or significant free agent money to acquire a starting CB. Assume pick or free agent money for a Safety. Assume pick or free agent money for an ILB. Yes they have cap room but some will be devoted to LBs Jackson and Orakpo. I don't think the Skins will sign a new contract for WR Morgan and may need to replace backup LeRib. Depending upon where you assign the picks it's not so easy to upgrade the supporting cast for the two Rush LB approach while filling other needs. My basic question has been whether there are fewer must upgrades to the supporting cast IF you drop the two Rush LB approach (i.e., don't resign Orakpo) and substitute a rush/drop back LB.

 

well, first off switching one of our OLB's to change the needs in the other areas just creates a new need in the LB corps.  You need to consider Carriker already replaced, with Baker and Neild on the roster.  Morgan will hopefully be replaced by Hankerson, with the backups consisting of Robinson, Lance Lewis, Nick Williams or Dezmon Briscoe.  Redskins also Mo Hurt on PUP and Tevita Stevans on PS for the backup guard if LeRibeus doesn't cut it.  Golston is a solid rotation guy, but he can be replaced on the cheap by guys in the mold of Merling and Ron Brace from last offseason.  And anyone who moves from one team to another is a blank slate.