Chalk Talk: Rush Outside Backers And Our Dilemma

[KDawg]

Puma,

That doesn't play to our strengths. It's similar to our 2 man DL. We still have coverage issues behind it.

[Puma Kane]

Puma,

That doesn't play to our strengths. It's similar to our 2 man DL. We still have coverage issues behind it.

Yeah, forgot about that.

But atleast we would have seven in coverage with the front four playing 2 or 3 gap stuff depending on down and distance.

It also would put Jackson on the field.

The secondary though.....

[Reaper 21]

I would love to see all three on the field at the same time. I also love the 3-4 but wouldn't mind if we showed some 4-3 base with rak. I just don't understand why we can't just leave rak on the line.

Kerrigan Jenkins Cofield Orakpo

Riley Fletcher Jackson

That to me would be the best lineup going forward.

[redskins4ever28]

Whats the fix then? Next year we have cap, but no 1st round pick. Do we try to get a 1st for Orakpo? Also, I think we all can agree our safeties are garbage at the moment. How would our rookie Phillip Thomas have played right now? Do we have a worthy replacement for London? And last but not least, we still, in my opinion, need offensive line help, so whats more priority, this garbage D, or this garbage oline?

[Mahons21]

Very interesting theories put forth there KDawg.

 

However with the amount of 3+ WR sets teams are using in the NFL now, how often are we even in okie personnel v a pass?

 

Also I would note that you can still run a lot of zone blitzes, and mask where pressure is coming from in a 2-4-5.  On top of that, with the way we line up in okie, it's usually pretty easy to predict whether the OLBs are dropping in coverage.  Point being I think our base personnel should essentially be our 2-4-5, so long as we got some big nasties playing the 2 and not Rak or kerrigan.

[slappy434]

I just wanted to make one comment here:

Why can't all threads in ES be like this?

This thread is filled with excellent, well articulated info (thanks KD) and awesome, well formed responses.  Those things combined gets you a valuable, level headed, refreshing read. 

 

Wish I could say the same for the rest of the threads.

Great thread, KDawg.  Seems like it took a lot of work.  Your OP is very well stated.

HTTR

[DaGoonie55]

KDawg, excellence at its finest Sir.  You never disappoint.

 

Perhaps you are correct about Hazlett, maybe the suspensions/injuries/cap is killing us.  Last years run was devoid of most of those issues.

 

I still think we can find a better DC, but hopefully he can string together enough decent calls to keep us from getting gashed.

 

Hypothetical:

 

KDawg is now the DC of the Redskins, going into the Cowboys game - how do you gameplan it?  (Perhaps another thread would be more appropriate?)  What changes would you (could you) enact now to shore up our D?

[l3ucket]

Disagree about Coefield. I think he's one of the best NT's in the league at the moment and it would be foolish to move him to DE in the 3-4.

 

I also think Kerrigan has molded nicely in to a Hybrid Sam. Our biggest issue is the lack of consistent play, and bad situation football. Personal is a slight issue in the back end, but it's a lot more simple then this write up. We failed to get off the field 4 times on 3rd down on Sunday because we didn't finish the tackle.

 

If you tackle, then this defense looks a lot better.

[Skins Wingman]

i think last year you broke down the 2-4-5 defense and how haslett wasnt utilizing it properly. it seemed like we always brought pressure too late, where a DB was lined up too far from the line. why not go back to that except get the players in position (up near the line) and bring more pressure.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Several teams have had a lot of success in the past running a 3 safety look.  Such as the Giants in 2011 (but lacked the personnel to do it in 2012 or this year).  They used this to compensate for having such bad linebackers.

 

We've seen Haslett run an extra corner at safety (both Josh Wilson and EJ Biggers have done it) to try and get more coverage guys on the field.  But what about adding a safety while taking away an ILB?  Improves speed and coverage...and Fletcher isn't as good as an every down guy as he used to be.

 

Would a 3-3-5 defense be foolish with our personnel?  Something like...

 

3-DL (Bowen, Cofield, Jenkins)

3-LB (Orakpo, Riley, Kerrigan)

5-DB (Amerson or Wilson, Hall, and then 3 safeties like Meriweather, Doughty, and Rambo)

[KDawg]

Very interesting theories put forth there KDawg.

 

However with the amount of 3+ WR sets teams are using in the NFL now, how often are we even in okie personnel v a pass?

 

Also I would note that you can still run a lot of zone blitzes, and mask where pressure is coming from in a 2-4-5.  On top of that, with the way we line up in okie, it's usually pretty easy to predict whether the OLBs are dropping in coverage.  Point being I think our base personnel should essentially be our 2-4-5, so long as we got some big nasties playing the 2 and not Rak or kerrigan.

 

We're in our base personnel versus pass fairly often. Teams don't just pass on third down. Teams have been passing on us in most situations this year.

 

And you absolutely can do a lot of stuff out of the 2-4-5. Agreed. Except we still have the same issues. Coverage issues on the back end and the pocket isn't collapsing. Same issues keep showing up.

 

KDawg, excellence at its finest Sir.  You never disappoint.

 

Perhaps you are correct about Hazlett, maybe the suspensions/injuries/cap is killing us.  Last years run was devoid of most of those issues.

 

I still think we can find a better DC, but hopefully he can string together enough decent calls to keep us from getting gashed.

 

Hypothetical:

 

KDawg is now the DC of the Redskins, going into the Cowboys game - how do you gameplan it?  (Perhaps another thread would be more appropriate?)  What changes would you (could you) enact now to shore up our D?

 

I'd have to study what they did to really provide a good answer. I don't like giving general answers to questions like that

 

(I don't disagree on Haslett. Just it's important to note he's not the only issue).

 

Disagree about Coefield. I think he's one of the best NT's in the league at the moment and it would be foolish to move him to DE in the 3-4.

 

I also think Kerrigan has molded nicely in to a Hybrid Sam. Our biggest issue is the lack of consistent play, and bad situation football. Personal is a slight issue in the back end, but it's a lot more simple then this write up. We failed to get off the field 4 times on 3rd down on Sunday because we didn't finish the tackle.

 

If you tackle, then this defense looks a lot better.

 

The OP states tackling is an issue. I don't agree with you, but there's not much to go on other than opinion. Cofield does a nice job not getting pushed back and plugging the gaps. But he doesn't get a push. DEs have the same responsibility as the nose, except the nose is susceptible to doubles/triples on nearly every play. They have to be able to establish the LOS in the backfield. Cofield doesn't get killed, but he doesn't move the line of scrimmage, either. What he does well, fill a gap, maintain it and defend his gap is ideally what you want your 3-4 DEs to do. And they also face doubles, but not as often and are not susceptible to the triple. I'd LOVE Cofield as a DE. He'd be a monster.

 

Personnel is not a "slight" issue. It's a glaring one.

 

Tackling is a part of personnel.

 

Several teams have had a lot of success in the past running a 3 safety look.  Such as the Giants in 2011 (but lacked the personnel to do it in 2012 or this year).  They used this to compensate for having such bad linebackers.

 

We've seen Haslett run an extra corner at safety (both Josh Wilson and EJ Biggers have done it) to try and get more coverage guys on the field.  But what about adding a safety while taking away an ILB?  Improves speed and coverage...and Fletcher isn't as good as an every down guy as he used to be.

 

Would a 3-3-5 defense be foolish with our personnel?  Something like...

 

3-DL (Bowen, Cofield, Jenkins)

3-LB (Orakpo, Riley, Kerrigan)

5-DB (Amerson or Wilson, Hall, and then 3 safeties like Meriweather, Doughty, and Rambo)

 

With the way NFL offenses are going, I think the 3-3-5 making its way to the NFL becomes a much more realistic possibility. I'm coaching in a 3-3-5 now and I love it. It's extremely flexible.

[Puma Kane]

Several teams have had a lot of success in the past running a 3 safety look.  Such as the Giants in 2011 (but lacked the personnel to do it in 2012 or this year).  They used this to compensate for having such bad linebackers.

 

We've seen Haslett run an extra corner at safety (both Josh Wilson and EJ Biggers have done it) to try and get more coverage guys on the field.  But what about adding a safety while taking away an ILB?  Improves speed and coverage...and Fletcher isn't as good as an every down guy as he used to be.

 

Would a 3-3-5 defense be foolish with our personnel?  Something like...

 

3-DL (Bowen, Cofield, Jenkins)

3-LB (Orakpo, Riley, Kerrigan)

5-DB (Amerson or Wilson, Hall, and then 3 safeties like Meriweather, Doughty, and Rambo)

It wouldnt work, because you give the pass rushing linebackers too much responsibility.

If we could get either Coefield or Jenkins to play to the calibre of Daryl Gardner and the secondary play more inside man press coverage, then that would help the defense.

I would love to see this defense gang the box and run to man coverages while dropping the fat guys back into coverage.

Man I miss Greg Williams.

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

Excellent post KDawg...

[DC9]

Very interesting theories put forth there KDawg.

 

However with the amount of 3+ WR sets teams are using in the NFL now, how often are we even in okie personnel v a pass?

 

Also I would note that you can still run a lot of zone blitzes, and mask where pressure is coming from in a 2-4-5.  On top of that, with the way we line up in okie, it's usually pretty easy to predict whether the OLBs are dropping in coverage.  Point being I think our base personnel should essentially be our 2-4-5, so long as we got some big nasties playing the 2 and not Rak or kerrigan.

 

I'm out of likes, but I wanted to let you (of all people ) know that I agree with and appreciate this post.

 

We're seeing a lot of 3 wide and even when we get 21 personnel from the offense we're seeing things like Joquie Bell and Theo Riddick, not Alfred Morris and DY.  No disrespect to our own players, but Riddick is a very fast RB who played a lot of WR at Notre Dame... a matchup nightmare for even the best coverage LBs in the NFL.  And our lack of willigness to tackle Bell spoke for itself.

 

Teams are calling us out.

[KDawg]

As they should, DC. It's how I'd game plan against us.

 

The 3-3-5 for us wouldn't work with our current personnel, either. But I could see teams transitioning to packages and then maybe total defenses depending on how successful the packages become. You need a specific kind of personnel for it, though. You need typical inside backers, three of them. You need two safety hybrids that can play LB or coverage quite well. You need a similar DL as to what we would like to have now. Orakpo and Kerrigan, but moreso Rak, don't really fit in my opinion. I mean, there's one way to find out... But skillset wise he's in a bad place unless you're moving him around to disguise what we're doing and giving him lesser coverage roles. That could work out. It's all in the hands of the soul designing it

[Momma There Goes That Man]

That was a 2-4-5 nickel look with Kerrigan and I think Bowen/Tapp inside as DL and Jenkins and Orakpo outside.  The rest of the defense was the same as our normal 2-4-5 nickel package.  We basically just put Kerrigan inside of Orakpo, which I think Kerrigan can do but I also think it exposes his legs to injury being in that part of defensive alignment.

 

What you're suggesting above sounds like our normal 3-4 package (with 4 DBs) and replacing one 3-4 DE with Kerrigan and having Jackson play LOLB. 

 

Most teams come out with at least 3 WR in passing situations, so you are either going to let them identify the defense or you are going to have a S or LB covering a slot receiver.  Not good.

 

Good deal, I couldn't remember what the formation was. Thanks for the explanation 

[DC9]

As they should, DC. It's how I'd game plan against us.

 

The 3-3-5 for us wouldn't work with our current personnel, either. But I could see teams transitioning to packages and then maybe total defenses depending on how successful the packages become. You need a specific kind of personnel for it, though. You need typical inside backers, three of them. You need two safety hybrids that can play LB or coverage quite well. You need a similar DL as to what we would like to have now. Orakpo and Kerrigan, but moreso Rak, don't really fit in my opinion. I mean, there's one way to find out... But skillset wise he's in a bad place unless you're moving him around to disguise what we're doing and giving him lesser coverage roles. That could work out. It's all in the hands of the soul designing it

 

Yeah, 3-3-5 would be a disaster with our current group of Safeties and our LBs.

 

I dig the hybrid stuff you mention.  I'm all about that stuff to an extent and in certain situations.

 

I'm all for simplifying the defense.  50/50 press man or show press and fall into cover 2 (this will create turnovers, eventually the offense will guess wrong).  Then every now and then (like every fifth play or so) show something exotic and have a few variations of what we can do based on that.  We have to show we can handle the simple things before we build on it.  It's almost like we are out thinking ourselves without actually thinking at all... if that makes any sense.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Someone REALLY should forward these debates to J. Haslett Esq. , care of the Washington Redskins, Redskins Park, Ashburn, Virginia and his staff as there's FAR more logical thought and nounce goes on between novices than so called pro's put into preparing and executing on Sundays. 

 

Hail. 

[MrJL]

Didn't Pittsburgh generally play with two pass rushing linebackers?

 

I think we could play a 4-3 with Jackson, Fletcher and Riley at LB

[skinny21]

Yeah, 3-3-5 would be a disaster with our current group of Safeties and our LBs.

I dig the hybrid stuff you mention. I'm all about that stuff to an extent and in certain situations.

I'm all for simplifying the defense. 50/50 press man or show press and fall into cover 2 (this will create turnovers, eventually the offense will guess wrong). Then every now and then (like every fifth play or so) show something exotic and have a few variations of what we can do based on that. We have to show we can handle the simple things before we build on it. It's almost like we are out thinking ourselves without actually thinking at all... if that makes any sense.

You know, I think you're right about simplifying things. Lets get the fundamentals down before we worry about... wait, I'm parroting you!

I love disguising coverages, rushers etc, but they don't look like they're on the same page out there. There's certainly more to the missed tackles than just over thinking things, but I could see it playing a large part.

Out of curiosity, why doesn't our personnel fit a 3-3-5? And do you mean as a base D or a package... or both?

I could see going with the 3 safety look - Doughty close to the line, Rambo deep and Meriweather (being the closest safety we have to being well-rounded) getting moved around. Not sure that Doughty should be out there over whoever we'd take out though.

[DC9]

You know, I think you're right about simplifying things. Lets get the fundamentals down before we worry about... wait, I'm parroting you!

I love disguising coverages, rushers etc, but they don't look like they're on the same page out there. There's certainly more to the missed tackles than just over thinking things, but I could see it playing a large part.

 

While it doesn't work the exact same way... it can have the same effect as one of Chip Kelly's offensive plays where there are two or three options from the some play.  Only it's the opposite.

 

You either run Cover 2 zone or 1 over man and press.  Maybe let the SS play robber to jump a post or help tackle a slant.  That should be it, in my opinion.  The offense has a 50% chance to guess right and gain some yardage.  They also have a 50% chance of guessing wrong and that'll force the QB to hold the ball (helping Orakpo and Kerrigan) for an extra second or two OR he throws it into an occupied zone and we get a pick.

 

You build off of that.  But that's how I'd have this team play the first quarter of every game.

 

Of course, this requires the defense to tackle.  But if they do something consistently, they will become more comfortable in their areas of responsibility and that leads to better tackling.

 

Then of course, on 3rd down, you get KDawg in there with 1-5-5 personnel and line-up in 62 stack monster and go into one of your zone blitzes

[Laron Burgundy]

So basically Orakpo is the OLB we deserve but not the OLB we need.

[KDawg]

Didn't Pittsburgh generally play with two pass rushing linebackers?

I think we could play a 4-3 with Jackson, Fletcher and Riley at LB

You bet they did. They also had two capable safeties, two decent to good corners, a good defensive line and good inside linebackers. You know, everything we are currently missing.

I don't understand why people think we can run a 4-3. Kerrigan and Rak at DE may be alright but they're a little on the light side. We don't really have any good interior DL depth. Cofield and then... Uhhh... Yup.

I'm also not sold on Fletch and Riley fitting on the field at the same time in a 4-3 and I'm really not sure about Jackson as a 4-3 OLB...

So basically Orakpo is the OLB we deserve but not the OLB we need.

Maybe not the first four weeks. Some questions will be answered with RJax return and Jenkins return... But I think long term having Rak and Kerrigan would be nice IF we surround them with the appropriate talent.

[Dark Acre]

The problem with this thread is that it's incomplete until our secondary develops.  If our young DBs develop into credible starters (remember, Phillip Thomas is out for the year too), then that will benefit what we're doing with our 2 OLBs.  If our secondary stays bad-to-mediocre, then yeah, we'll have to adjust the front 7 to compensate.

[MrJL]

You bet they did. They also had two capable safeties, two decent to good corners, a good defensive line and good inside linebackers. You know, everything we are currently missing.

I don't understand why people think we can run a 4-3. Kerrigan and Rak at DE may be alright but they're a little on the light side. We don't really have any good interior DL depth. Cofield and then... Uhhh... Yup.

I'm also not sold on Fletch and Riley fitting on the field at the same time in a 4-3 and I'm really not sure about Jackson as a 4-3 OLB...

 

 

 

If you're a 3-4 end you're capable of playing a 4-3 tackle.  As far as I know so are NTs.  That means our interior line would be Cofield Bowen, Jenkins, Golston, Baker and Neild.  So interior line depth would be the opposite of a problem

 

I believe that Perry Riley was an OLB in college.  Keenan Robinson may have been as well.  And I loved Jackson in coverage last year.