***2021-2022 NBA Season Thread***

[Destino]

I watched the Warriors play around 20 games this year. That's as much as I know about Green, which isn't a hell of a lot. Haven't seen anything that screams "max contract".

[Going Commando]

I feel like this is the first time half of you watched Draymond Green.

 

I think he was a little overwhelmed by the Cavs' size last night, but nearly everything the Dubs do well this year is based around the fact that they can play him at the 5 and not be a total disaster on D.

Green is not a credible five against an opponent with any kind of actual size or rebounding ability. Playing him at the five and Barnes at the four last night almost cost them the game too because Iman Shumpert got that rebound.

[RawBBQSauce]

Man, if the Cavs ran an actual play at the end of regulation and got an easy basket this would be a completely different narrative. But no, just a straight hand-off iso to Lebron on the left wing and he jacks up one of the ugliest shots you could ever jack up at the end of a game.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Green is not a credible five against an opponent with any kind of actual size or rebounding ability. Playing him at the five and Barnes at the four last night almost cost them the game too because Iman Shumpert got that rebound.

 

Golden State wiped out Houston in the last series when Green played center against Howard.

 

Where this not seem to cause a problem for GS is when teams have two legit bigs on the floor at the same time - Memphis and Cleveland can do this.

 

Of course, playing two bigs in the modern is its own handicap. Cleveland basically plays 4 on 5 on offense when they go with the two bigs and Lebron and Kyrie do nothing but shoot midrange jumpers out of isos.

 

Memphis lost all its floor spacing against GS because they put Bogut on Tony Allen and then ignore Tony Allen.

 

If the concern is that Green at the 5 is a struggle against big lineups, that means that it's not a struggle in 70 games a year right now.

 

(It's also not like when didn't just see this same thing for the past 3 years with Miami. It can be exhausting against the wrong matchup but playing what is essentially a small forward at the 5 is probably going to win 3 out of the last 4 titles).

 

I don't know anyone who watches as much NBA as you who still falls for "the last thing I saw is always going to happen forever" trap. If Cleveland had won after that block, I was expecting a post explaining how Kyrie had made the leap to all world defender.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Lombardi's_kid_brother

[Going Commando]

Golden State wiped out Houston in the last series when Green played center against Howard.

 

Where this not seem to cause a problem for GS is when teams have two legit bigs on the floor at the same time - Memphis and Cleveland can do this.

 

Of course, playing two bigs in the modern is its own handicap. Cleveland basically plays 4 on 5 on offense when they go with the two bigs and Lebron and Kyrie do nothing but shoot midrange jumpers out of isos.

 

Memphis lost all its floor spacing against GS because they put Bogut on Tony Allen and then ignore Tony Allen.

 

If the concern is that Green at the 5 is a struggle against big lineups, that means that it's not a struggle in 70 games a year right now.

 

(It's also not like when didn't just see this same thing for the past 3 years with Miami. It can be exhausting against the wrong matchup but playing what is essentially a small forward at the 5 is probably going to win 3 out of the last 4 titles).

 

I don't know anyone who watches as much NBA as you who still falls for "the last thing I saw is always going to happen forever" trap. If Cleveland had won after that block, I was expecting a post explaining how Kyrie had made the leap to all world defender.

 

I just checked BR and Green played 1% of his minutes at center this season.  Last night he played like three minutes at the five in regulation.  It's not a significant part of Golden State's success.  His strengths are the ability to guard both forward spots at an elite level and also offer good passing and respectable defensive rebounding and three point shooting for a PF.  But that does not a max player make.

 

Who would Golden State even be bidding against really?  Is there a single team out there that can afford to give a max contract to a fourth or fifth option?  I mean, if he was a seven footer, then maaaaaybe you could live with it.  Is there a single team that wouldn't immediately regret giving him max money?  I'm trying to come up with the market for him.  If some foolish team drops a max deal on him you're talking about an inevitable promotion to a first or second option offensive role that he can't handle and a massive decline in his numbers and value.  It's essentially the exact same thing that happened to Josh Smith, who didn't get a max deal BTW.

 

I can't tell, are you arguing that Green is a max player?  Or is him getting a max deal much more of a straw man argument than I'm thinking?

[Going Commando]

Man, if the Cavs ran an actual play at the end of regulation and got an easy basket this would be a completely different narrative. But no, just a straight hand-off iso to Lebron on the left wing and he jacks up one of the ugliest shots you could ever jack up at the end of a game.

 

Yeah but how are you going to get a better shot than that in ten seconds on a floor with zero other offensive threats?  Scheme up a complex series of screens for LeBron to run through and you run the risk of not having enough time to execute the play and then Irving has to bail out and force up a shot on his own.  The best alternative I can think of is what Peter suggested: PnR to Mozgov but that clogs up the driving lane for LeBron.  And leaving the game in Mozgov's hands is unacceptable IMO.

 

ISOing LeBron was the right call on paper.  The problem was the execution.  Shumpert's screen was completely ineffective, but it wouldn't have mattered much anyway because Golden State wasn't going to switch.  LeBron needed to hold for the last shot.  But he caught the ball with his wrong foot planted IMO.  I don't think he had the legs to get by Iggoudala at that point in the game.  Look at his first step on his drive.  It created zero separation.

 

I guess you could just say damn the clock, let's run a scoring play and then trust our defense to finish.  Then you have a better screener free LeBron and then have him drive hard to the middle after he catches on the run.  But then you still have a helper in the lane to deal with.  And if you miss and give GS five or six seconds to run a play to beat you in regulation then you're going to be roasted even worse.

 

I think the Cavs were as good as you can reasonably expect.  Their only guy who was terrible was JR Smith.  But come on, it's JR Smith.  You're going to get that from him.  On the whole, they got so many more possessions than Golden State because of all the TOs and offensive rebounds.  They attempted almost ten more shots.  But the Warriors just keep making shots.  They're the better team and there is only so much you can do about that.

[PeterMP]

I gotta say if somebody signs Green to a max deal, it is based on potential that he then may or may not fulfill.  You can't look a this role on GS and say he deserves a max contract.

 

Is he good enough to be a max deal player?  Maybe.

 

Would I be shocked if somebody gave him one?  No.

[Going Commando]

Golden State is too deep with too many options for Cleveland. It was that way with Kyrie healthy, now it will be a whoopin'. Too be fair though, this will essentially go with the 2007 Finals as one of those "not anything LeBron could do" series.

 

Even though his shooting efficiency numbers have plummeted, I think this has been one of LeBron's finest seasons from a leadership perspective.  Particularly in the postseason, where he led his team to play at a dominant level in the first three rounds despite Kevin Love getting hurt and Kyrie trying to check out early.  The amount of load he's carrying on offense is enormous and I think he's the key factor in elevating the play of Irving, Thompson, Mozgov, JR Smith, and Dellavedova this season.  Without his leadership, I doubt the Cavs would even make the playoffs.  Irving wouldn't have become this super efficient second option and would have, once again, folded under the burden of leadership without LeBron.  Thompson probably wouldn't have broken out.  Nobody would want JR Smith.  And nobody would even be thinking about Mozgov or Dellavedova.  It's all LeBron's doing.

 

I wouldn't hold losing to a superior Golden State team against him so long as the Cavs don't just roll over and die.  They had a legitimately good chance to win last night.  If they put up that kind of fight each game, even if it's a four game sweep, that's respectable.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

Steve they had more than 10 seconds. They had 25 seconds on the clock when they gained possession, Irving brought it up court and handed to Lebron with 10 seconds left.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I gotta say if somebody signs Green to a max deal, it is based on potential that he then may or may not fulfill.  You can't look a this role on GS and say he deserves a max contract.

 

Is he good enough to be a max deal player?  Maybe.

 

Would I be shocked if somebody gave him one?  No.

 

I don't think he's a max player on Golden State, because there's a pecking order there.

 

If I'm Boston and have nothing but cap space and draft picks as far as the eye can see and have a coach who wants nothing but young versatile dudes up and down his roster........I may take the plunge.

 

Also, 2017 is coming, man. I'm not terribly worried about long-term cap flexibility at the moment.

[The Evil Genius]

Proof that Jesse Jackson and Guy Fieri aren't the same guy.

 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

There goes that rumor...

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

By the way, Dan Lebatard has had a really good point.

 

We've spent the last week trying to make an argument how Lebron alone is enough to beat a historically great Warriors team.

 

And when he gets swept, we are going to absolutely kill Lebron for being 2-4 in the Finals. People are going to start arguing that not only is Jordan better but Kobe is better too because "Look at the rings!!!!"

 

I for one look forward to being the one person defending Lebron on these boards in about 8 days.

[CrypticVillain]

Naw, screw that... Kobe is not leading the two Cavs teams to the finals that Lebron has. I don't care if he gets swept.

The order will still be...

Jordan

Lebron

Kobe

[Predicto]

Lebron didn't get the ball enough in OT. He barely touched it for the 3-4 possessions that GS built their lead. He should have been posting up like he was doing all game at will. That's also what he should have done at the end of regulation

 

I suspect he was exhausted by then.   He carried them for 48 minutes straight.

Why would any Cavs fan blame the refs? 

 

I haven't seen too many Cavs fans complaining about the reffing on the message boards I go to.   Other than the Mozgov travel, I think they realize that they got the benefit of the doubt on most calls.  

[Predicto]

I don't think he's a max player on Golden State, because there's a pecking order there.

 

If I'm Boston and have nothing but cap space and draft picks as far as the eye can see and have a coach who wants nothing but young versatile dudes up and down his roster........I may take the plunge.

 

 

 

Detroit is the team that is going to overpay Green.   The question is whether the Warriors match or not.

Naw, screw that... Kobe is not leading the two Cavs teams to the finals that Lebron has. I don't care if he gets swept.

The order will still be...

Jordan

Lebron

Kobe

 

 

the order will still be 

 

Jordan

LeBron

 

about 5-10 other guys

 

Kobe

[PeterMP]

Yeah but how are you going to get a better shot than that in ten seconds on a floor with zero other offensive threats?  Scheme up a complex series of screens for LeBron to run through and you run the risk of not having enough time to execute the play and then Irving has to bail out and force up a shot on his own.  The best alternative I can think of is what Peter suggested: PnR to Mozgov but that clogs up the driving lane for LeBron.  And leaving the game in Mozgov's hands is unacceptable IMO.

 

ISOing LeBron was the right call on paper.  The problem was the execution.  Shumpert's screen was completely ineffective, but it wouldn't have mattered much anyway because Golden State wasn't going to switch.  LeBron needed to hold for the last shot.  But he caught the ball with his wrong foot planted IMO.  I don't think he had the legs to get by Iggoudala at that point in the game.  Look at his first step on his drive.  It created zero separation.

 

At the end where GS has picked up the defensive intensity and pressure and you are starting the offense 30 ft. from the basket, I agree you can't pick and roll with Mozgov.  You can't run a pick and roll where Mozgov might be open 18 ft. from the basket.

 

I mentioned having Mozgov in the game as an off the ball player.

 

Realistically, if you have Shumpert in the game, you are saying we're daring you to double off of Shumpert because he's going to get the ball and win the game.  Shumpert can get the ball by:

 

1.  an offensive rebound .  This is what happened, but realistically, Shumpert isn't an outstanding offensive rebounder, even for a guard.  He's no Dwayne Wade.  This is a low probability play.

 

2.  Lebron passing it to him after I've doubled him.  Given that Lebron can make a pass to Shumpert on the perimeter.  And realistically, this is similar to what ended up happening and he almost made the shot, if I'm GS, that's something I can live with.

 

If Shumpert wins the game off of a 3 from an offensive rebound or a Lebron pass, I'm okay with that.

 

 Lebron can make a pass to Shumpert in the paint area.  At that time, I've got Lebron, his defender, my doubling defender, Shumpert, and probably some more people in the paint (as the rest of the defense collapses on Lebron's drive/the pass).  I'm not overly worried about this because Shumpert isn't a great finisher.

 

If you consider the same sorts of situations with Mozgov, I'm not worried about Mozgov on the perimeter with the ball, but he's a good offensive rebounder.  I am worried about a situation where Lebron drives, we double, Mozgov comes into the paint and cleans up the miss with a put back.  I'm also worried about a Lebron drive and some sort of pass (e.g. a lob) to Mozgov at the rim.

 

Now, I do think you could have done something other than Lebron ISO starting 30 ft. from the basket:

 

1.  A Lebron/Kyrie pick and roll.  They don't seem to do much of that, and I'm not sure why.  But that seems like something that should be in their arsenal.

 

2.  The other thing is to set off the ball picks and get Lebron the ball closer to the basket.  Again, they don't seem to do much of that, but I don't understand why.  Yes, it is possible to deny Lebron the ball in that situation, BUT if you do that, you are going to do one of two things (most likely):

 

1.  Switch on the picks.  This means the defender doesn't have to come through the picks and the defender of the pick setter can simply stay "over" Lebron and stay with him.  This is a win for the Cavs because they get to pick who sets the picks and so who you have to switch with.

 

If you do that, I can run him through a couple of picks and still have him come out to 31 ft. and take the ball, but now I have a match up that I've dictated instead of the one that GS dictated.

 

2.  You can have the man defending the passer over play the pass side.  Now, this seems like it might be an acceptable thing to do with Dellavedova or even one of the Miami PGs from last year.  But doing this normally leaves the PG a pretty good lane to the basket to the other side.  (They actually did this some with Delly at the PG even with Lebron coming out.  Delly had a few times when he had time getting the ball up the floor and into Lebron's hands.  They essentially dared Delly to take a path to basket on the side away from Lebron).

 

But with Kyrie, if they do that, if you're the Cavs you have to like his chances at getting into the paint (or even to the rim) and making something else happen from there.

 

If I'm the Cavs, and they deny us from making a pass to Lebron in the extended post area because Kryie's man is playing off to that side to deny the pass, I think you've got to be willing to live with Kyrie taking it to the basket and seeing what happens from there.

 

I'm not surprised they didn't do either of these things because they never seem to do them, and in that sense, I understand why they didn't.  To do something different in the last 25 sec. of a game than you normally do doesn't make much sense.

 

I don't understand why they don't do more of it trough out the game, and then doing them in the last 25 sec. makes more sense.

[PeterMP]

I don't think he's a max player on Golden State, because there's a pecking order there.

 

If I'm Boston and have nothing but cap space and draft picks as far as the eye can see and have a coach who wants nothing but young versatile dudes up and down his roster........I may take the plunge.

 

Also, 2017 is coming, man. I'm not terribly worried about long-term cap flexibility at the moment.

 

Right, but the players know that too.

 

If you can sign Green to a 2016 max contract long term, long term you are getting him on a discount as to what is a max contract.

 

But is Green going to sign a long term max contract?  Or is going to be looking for something that has a player option after a year or 2?

 

The question is in the context of the value of a max contract, is Green a max contract player?

 

Is it worth signing Green to a max contract now with players options with the idea that to keep him you may have to sign him to another max contract?

 

He's not clearly worth that now.

[Predicto]

the animators from Taiwan have spoken

 

[Destino]

What did I just watch?  I saw Curry snatch off Lebrons wig and then hit a three in his face while smoking a cigarette. 

[Sticksboi05]

By the way, Dan Lebatard has had a really good point.

 

We've spent the last week trying to make an argument how Lebron alone is enough to beat a historically great Warriors team.

 

And when he gets swept, we are going to absolutely kill Lebron for being 2-4 in the Finals. People are going to start arguing that not only is Jordan better but Kobe is better too because "Look at the rings!!!!"

 

I for one look forward to being the one person defending Lebron on these boards in about 8 days.

 

stevemcqueen and I have already defended LeBron literally on the last page but nice try.

Edited June 5, 2015 by Sticksboi05

[Predicto]

What did I just watch?  I saw Curry snatch off Lebrons wig and then hit a three in his face while smoking a cigarette. 

 

 

It makes sense in Taiwan.  

[Sticksboi05]

Detroit is the team that is going to overpay Green.   The question is whether the Warriors match or not.

 

 

the order will still be 

 

Jordan

LeBron

 

about 5-10 other guys

 

Kobe

 

Much more accurate. 

[CrypticVillain]

the order will still be 

 

Jordan

LeBron

 

about 5-10 other guys

 

Kobe

I should have clarified non-big men, and in my lifetime.

If I included the big men, it'll be...

 

Jordan

Lebron

Hakeem

Shaq

Kobe/Duncan

 

Shaq used to be three, but I did so much research on Hakeem and I just think Shaq ever matched what he did during 94-95. 

[TradeTheBeal!]

I'll take Magic Johnson over Kobe/Duncan...by a mile.