The Official ES All Things Redskins Name Change Thread (Reboot Edition---Read New OP)

[grego]

One poll makes it a fact. Gotcha. Keep in mind, I am not advocating change, just that I am not sure it's not worth looking into.

 

 

theres no real scientific way to know without (another) thorough poll, but- and this is my opinion- from everything i can tell, its probably very close to correct.

 

i base this on a variety of things ive read, with the annenberg poll being one part. indian high schools using the name for their mascots is another. it seems that whenever a reporter asks a person who is not susan harjo or amanda blackhorse or someone protesting (like the nine protestors in green bay last week), those native americans seems to laugh at the issue. such as, the local rappahannock tribe. referring to reillys article and the experience with his father in law who is blackfoot and runs a restaurant on a reservation. walter wetzel, who designed the redskins logo and was president of the congress of native americans.

 

this is hardly scientific. but if someone is asking me my best guess on how native americans feel, my feeling is its a few who are offended and a vast majority who arent, based on every measurable statistic i have ever seen. 

My point is that if the name offends people, then it offends them. Whether they have a good reason or not.

You can try to convince them not to be offended. To change their mind.

But if they're offended, if their feelings are hurt, then that's real.

 

 

i gotcha. 

 

but i still wouldnt advocate a name change based on that. then we are back to appeasing everyones hurt feelings no matter how silly their reasons, and thats just not something that should happen. 

 

but then, i've been waiting for probably two years at this point for someone to print the knowable facts in a national column. reilly did, and it doesnt seem to have gotten through anyones head, so i may be completely wrong on this. 

larry, ive basically thought for awhile that eduacation was the key to defeating this, but i'm starting to think that people just dont care, they ve made up their minds, and they just want to see it changed for the sake of change, for the sake of making themselves feel better.

 

then, itll be onto the next issue. 

[Zguy28]

Nope.  I'm telling you that the Confederate Battle Flag it is a terrible choice for "repping your Southern Heritage" because it comes with a huge amount of baggage.  It only became a famous symbol at all because it was the acknowledged symbol of opposition to integration during the 1950s and 60s.  It was adopted at the Dixiecrat Convention of 1948, which was all about opposition to civil rights, and then that flag suddenly started to appear on the roofs of Southern State Capitals and in southern white folks' front yards ever since.   

 

 

I always thought it was popular because of the Dukes of Hazzard.

 

In all seriousness, to myself (as a white person) its a symbol of rebellion at the very least.

[grego]

you know what im reminded of when i think of people continuing to take up this cause, despite their false assumptions, and my impression that, at this point, they are protesting because theyre committed to the cause no matter how wrong ? i'm reminded of the bang cartoon about the cowboy fans who are so obnoxious with their support of the team, yet so shallow that they have other teams gear in their closets. 

 

its a false zeal. zeal for the sake of zeal rather then zeal for the sake of truth. 

 

it reminds me of cowboy fans who ride around DC with their flags flying from their cars, stickers all over their cars, tony romo jerseys, etc- yet they cant tell you anything about last weeks game. they cant name 5 players on the team. 

 

they are just fans because they want to be part of the contrarian group because they just love sticking your nose in it. 

 

i think alot of people are just like this.

[Major Harris]

I think it's silly to write it off as that, just as it would be silly to write off the other side as having no integrity or being a racist

[Predicto]

Dude, it was the NATIONAL COUNCIL OF NATIVE AMERICANS. I am pretty sure you would take NAMBLA for their word if this was a gay issue.

 

 

NAMBLA?   Errr... I think you misspoke here.

I think it's silly to write it off as that, just as it would be silly to write off the other side as having no integrity or being a racist

 

 

Absolutely.   Some people in this thread are perfectly willing to project shallow and deceitful motivations on the "other side" while being outraged that the "other side" may be projecting inaccurate motivations upon them.  

[Major Harris]

NAMBLA?   Errr... I think you misspoke here.

Lol

Wouldn't be the first time. For sure.

:doh:

[grego]

I think it's silly to write it off as that, just as it would be silly to write off the other side as having no integrity or being a racist

 

 

as what? as all insincere people who just want a cause? no, i dont think all of them are like that. they may all want a cause, but they arent all insincere. some are very sincere, they are just sincerely wrong.

 

i think there are different reasons people are advocating a name change. 

[grego]

 

 

 

Absolutely.   Some people in this thread are perfectly willing to project shallow and deceitful motivations on the "other side" while being outraged that the "other side" may be projecting inaccurate motivations upon them.  

 

 

there are shallow arguments on the keep the name side, imo. 'tradition' and 'most people (meaning not native americans) are OK with the name.

 

there are definitely arguments i hear that set our cause back and make me cringe.

[grego]

i will say this, while i certainly dont paint all of those on the other side with one broad brush, i do have some issues with some people ive heard with regards to them taking such strong positions on the name. 

 

what i was mainly referring to was people who take a position of 'change the name', yet have their facts completely wrong, like the former raiders executive on the junkies this morning. she repeatedly and specifically spoke of the 'origin of the name' as being a slur, and nobody corrected her. 

 

these are the kinds of people i have very little respect for, and the kind of 'take up a cause for the sake of a cause' people i'm talking about. 

 

if you take up a cause, and you refuse to use the name 'redskins', you'd better have a clue what youre talking about, imo. 

[VinnyIsThatYou?]

I'm going to keep my response brief because I realize this is a tangent to the thread topic (which was the majority of my comment in my original post) and that no one else cares.

 

First, I'll apologize because my response to you should have been nicer, but I do stand by all of my points. And I do think the pics you posted were baseless. 

 

I'll point out in the two pictures you posted, I count 2 neo-Nazi flags, 2 USA flags, the state flag of CA, and 2 rebel flags. You're kind of making my point for me. The KKK guys are brandishing the USA flag just as much as the rebel flag. Doesn't mean the USA flag represents hate and whatnot, just means some KKK guys are misusing a flag to help spread their propaganda. Much like the rebel flag. The USA and rebel flags can still be used to represent positive things despite one group misusing it.

 

These guys are using the USA flag and rebel flag to show they are patriotic and have regional pride. It helps spread their message of hate and supremacy. It's a tool for propaganda, nothing more.

 

The actual flag representing their hate and supremacy are the neo-Nazi flags with the swastika (which interestingly originated from ancient tribes in India and is still used by several Hindus to this day). The rebel battle flag does not represent white supremacy or a pro-slavery mindset.

 

That's all I'll say, I don't want to get into a sensitive argument over this. Maybe if there's a thread about it in the future we can argue more. Have a good day.

 

I've always found it funny how certain people choose to exhibit their "Southern Pride."

 

Let me know how "Tired" and "Baseless" this is:

 

 

 

I don't need to tell you what the **** to think. They tell me. I never said everyone who flies it is a white supremacist.l I said that when I SEE that flag waving, THAT'S what comes to mind. If that's not your intention, then again, don't ****ing feign ignorance and pretend that the evil goverment is behind all of it, planting falsehoods in everyones mind, pretending that people weren't lynched, beaten, burned, enslaved, and segregated against all while the perpetrators proudly flew that flag

 

You wanna set the record straight? Go right ahead, but don't ****ing pretend like you have anymore of a right to tell me what that flag stands for than I do. You don't like the negative attention that it receives? Then what are you doing about it? Are you protesting against all of these groups, to let them know that they're giving your precious flag a bad name? Or are you simply sitting back, with your head up your ass, essentially saying "It's not my problem?" Because it sure as hell is your problem.

 

So educate me. Tell me what it stands for to you. Tell me more about how I should disregard the groups of people (who intend ill will towards everyone but white Christians) who fly, and have flown it. I'm not an authority on it, and neither the hell are you. You may not like it, but like I said, I doubt many people care about your feelings, especially since you continue to cop the attitude that everyone who has an issue with that flag is brainwashed. I am from Florida. My former sister in law is black and from NC. Don't try and play that **** with me. You don't get to tell people that they shouldn't view that flag in a negative light, considering this country's history. The fact that you don't get that, and choose to spin it, only makes you look like a ****ing moron. You don't like the way it's "Portrayed?" YOU do something about it then. Maybe YOU can take a page from the Oneida tribes playbook and talk about how those jackasses have ruined your flag. Start a radio ad.

[VinnyIsThatYou?]

Well listen. I was responding to specific arguments made by someone else. So it kind of muddies things up because I wasn't directing any of my comments to you or your specific points. I'm not going to respond to your argument because I'm going to let the topic die in this thread and it would take a lot of effort to get closure on the subject.

 

But I will say you had a lot more thought and reasoning in your post than most on the subject, and I respect that. I really enjoy when people bring forth arguments with reason and aren't just repeating something. For what it's worth, I am not white and I am from DC and currently live in DC. I don't own the flag or anything with the design on it. I do have several close relationships with Southerners and am an Ole Miss fan.

 

I think it's too easy for people to assign their own meanings to symbols and it's not fair to the people who take pride in those symbols, and to call them racists, white supremacists, etc. Outside of being called a sexual predator, there's nothing more socially damaging than being accused of being a white supremacist.

And I'll go ahead and bring this back to the topic of the thread. I get irritated when some media doosh (sports media, no less) tells me I'm a racist for calling my team by their official mascot, or wearing Redskins gear. When I rock a Redskins hat, I am not attempting to spread a message of supremacy over American Indians. I'm just showing support for my team.

 

 

[Predicto]

Well listen. I was responding to specific arguments made by someone else. So it kind of muddies things up because I wasn't directing any of my comments to you or your specific points. I'm not going to respond to your argument because I'm going to let the topic die in this thread and it would take a lot of effort to get closure on the subject.

 

But I will say you had a lot more thought and reasoning in your post than most on the subject, and I respect that. I really enjoy when people bring forth arguments with reason and aren't just repeating something. For what it's worth, I am not white and I am from DC and currently live in DC. I don't own the flag or anything with the design on it. I do have several close relationships with Southerners and am an Ole Miss fan.

 

I think it's too easy for people to assign their own meanings to symbols and it's not fair to the people who take pride in those symbols, and to call them racists, white supremacists, etc. Outside of being called a sexual predator, there's nothing more socially damaging than being accused of being a white supremacist.

And I'll go ahead and bring this back to the topic of the thread. I get irritated when some media doosh (sports media, no less) tells me I'm a racist for calling my team by their official mascot, or wearing Redskins gear. When I rock a Redskins hat, I am not attempting to spread a message of supremacy over American Indians. I'm just showing support for my team.

 

 

Same here.   I show support for my team too.

 

I'm in San Francisco, but I have a Redskins jacket, a replica No. 9 jersey with Jurgensen on the back, a Redskins hat, Redskins sweatpants, a Redskins scarf.  My wife gave me RGIII pyjamas as a birthday present recently (lol I hate wearing pyjamas).  My keyring has the Redskins logo, the back of my Ipad is a custom Redskins cover.  My mousepad at work is a Redskins mousepad, and on my work desk as I type is a 1960s vintage ceramic Redskins figurine (which is pretty awesome) - looks like this:

 

 

I stood tall and sang Hail to the Redskins in a bar mostly full of Eagles fans in San Francisco last Sunday every time we scored a point against the Lions.   I'm pretty sure that I'm not a racist, much less a white supremacist.

 

I still think the time for using the word "Redskin" to describe my favorite team might have passed, and I'm pretty sure that fighting to the death to keep using the word is not a fight that I want to be a part of.    I'm also pretty sure that the reason I am having these doubts is not because I have been tricked by media douches or a lack of knowledge about the subject.

 

So just be aware.  There are people of good will on both sides of this discussion. 

[Larry]

I still think the time for using the word "Redskin" to describe my favorite team might have passed, and I'm pretty sure that fighting to the death to keep using the word is not a fight that I want to be a part of. I'm also pretty sure that the reason I am having these doubts is not because I have been tricked by media douches or a lack of knowledge about the subject.

But, is it because media douches have tricked other people who lack knowledge of the subject?

 

[zoony]

I can't remember, why is Oklahoma ok? What's the PC Police narrative there, I don't want to go back thru the thread

[Major Harris]

I can't remember, why is Oklahoma ok? What's the PC Police narrative there, I don't want to go back thru the thread

i have never heard anyone say a sooner is a racist / derogatory term. that's the issue....is redskin offensive / racist / derogatory?

i still say no. but i don't think it's moot.

[Bang]

Oklahoma isn't named after the Sooners.

The Sooners were the invaders in today's lexicon.

 

~Bang

[MattFancy]

I can't remember, why is Oklahoma ok? What's the PC Police narrative there, I don't want to go back thru the thread

 

Yeah not sure how "Red People" is different than Redskins?

[Larry]

i have never heard anyone say a sooner is a racist / derogatory term. that's the issue....is redskin offensive / racist / derogatory?

i still say no. but i don't think it's moot.

Zoony wasn't asking about the name of the OU football team.

(Although that might be an interesting temporary hijack. The team is named after people who snuck into a foreign nation so that they could steal land from the citizens of that nation.).

He was asking about the name of the state, which is a term invented by Native Americans, which refers to themselves by referring to the color of their skin, as red.

[Major Harris]

Zoony wasn't asking about the name of the OU football team.

(Although that might be an interesting temporary hijack. The team is named after people who snuck into a foreign nation so that they could steal land from the citizens of that nation.).

He was asking about the name of the state, which is a term invented by Native Americans, which refers to themselves by referring to the color of their skin, as red.

I know, I just don't know the stick-out-tongue smiley code anymore.

, which is a term invented by Native Americans, .

I do think that part is relevant.

[nonniey]

i have never heard anyone say a sooner is a racist / derogatory term. that's the issue....is redskin offensive / racist / derogatory?

i still say no. but i don't think it's moot.

Not Sooner - Oklahoma - which when Translated to English is Red Men or Redskins.

[Larry]

Not Sooner - Oklahoma - which when Translated to English is Red Men or Redskins.

In elementary school (in Oklahoma), I was told it translated as "Land of the Red Man".

(You know, OT, but when I was a kid, I thought that the term "Indian giver" referred to Indians giving people things, and then taking them back.)

[Major Harris]

(You know, OT, but when I was a kid, I thought that the term "Indian giver" referred to Indians giving people things, and then taking them back.)

ok, i am googling now, because i thought that as a kid and never knew i was wrong.

[Larry]

ok, i am googling now, because i thought that as a kid and never knew i was wrong.

Well NOW, when I think of that term, what I think of was the White Men giving Oklahoma to the Red Men, then changing their mind and taking it back.

I have no idea if that's what the term originally meant, or if that's what other people think of.

[Soup's Uncle]

I am not a racist.  I am part native american.  I am not offended.  I love the Redskins.  If anyone is offended, I'm starting to feel as though we should change the name just so we can stop hearing about it.

 

The way society is today, everyone is hyper sensitive and with this over saturation of media and opinions, this isn't going to go away.  And I do not want to be labeled a racist for rooting for a football team.

 

It's like, really people?  It's football.  This isn't a statement of race relations to us.  This is our football team.  Frankly, along with all of the drama surrounding RG3, I am so tired of hearing about this.  Yes, the Redskins were the last to integrate.  That doesn't mean our owner, or players, or our fanbase is racist.  Most of us weren't even alive then.

 

Keep the colors, do a re-brand.  I'll still root for the team.  we jsut have to realize that we have one of the most marketable players in the league now, and it brings us a lot more attention.  This attention is bad becuase we are the racist team. 

 

Jesus Christ.  Again, it's frickin football.  Our frickin government is shut down, and we have major problems with shootings in this country and our football team's name is what people are worried about.

 

It's like, c'mon douche bags.  Relax and go root for your team.  I just want it to end.

[RFKFedEx]

I am not a racist. And I do not want to be labeled a racist for rooting for a football team.

I just want it to end.

I don't think any of our fans mean harm in what we do. That doesn't mean we can't adapt to change as the world evolves.

 

There's only one way this controversy will end. Some of us here are more accepting of that reality than others. 

 

Hail!