The Official ES All Things Redskins Name Change Thread (Reboot Edition---Read New OP)

[grego]

Here's Assemblywoman Claudia Tenney after Ray Halbritter's crew had her ejected from the hotel:

 

 

Se mentioned the name of Melvin Phillips, a full blooded Oneida Indian who's land has been seized by Halbritter.

 

 

hilarious that melvin phillips- the guy halbritters apparently screwing- supports the name. 

 

again, hope this gets more attention. 

 

*this is me, holding my breath*

[elkabong82]

The fact that they have bigger things to worry about is a neutral point to me.  African-Americans as a whole also have bigger things to worry about than names, and if you ask African-Americans whether they would prefer to eliminate poverty in the ghetto or the use of racial slurs, I'm sure they would chose to dump the poverty.   But the slurs are still a problem.

 

However, I'm not dismissing the general point you and Bang are making.  If Native American like the name who are we to tell them differently.   I'd just like to see more outreach to them to make absolutely sure that we know how they really feel about it.  

 

Sure African-Americans have bigger things to worry about, but if a team were named the blackskins or the n words, there certainly would be an uproar over it, not an indifference. 

 

Most anyone would choose ending poverty over the use of slurs, that is a silly scenario.

 

The article you posted, the writer drew a very clear picture about, in his opinion, how most feel, which is that they don't care. If they don't care then, logically, the word must not be all that offensive to them. 

[Kosher Ham]

This is perhaps in the wrong thread...

 

If you are against the name, how did you come to the point where you continued to cheer for the team ?

 

I stopped eating at Chick-fil-a  (sp?)....I loved their product, but wil not endorse their stance on certain topics.

[Boss_Hogg]

hilarious that melvin phillips- the guy halbritters apparently screwing- supports the name. 

 

again, hope this gets more attention. 

 

*this is me, holding my breath*

 

Tenney has been after Halbritter long before he jumped into this "name controversy". She knows his checkered past and has facts to back it up.

[Boss_Hogg]

I thought this was interesting too http://www.thepeoplespaths.net/articles/onidadoc.html

 

Oneida Indian Nation
Six Nation Iroquois Confederacy
Oneida Nation Territory, via Oneida, NY 13421

(Released with the express permission of the signatories.)

17 April, 1996

 

Shek u Nation Members,

As an Oneida member you have heard or personally experienced some of the human and civil rights violations going on in Oneida Territory. We find that it is our duty and responsibility to reveal the truth.

 

Although Halbritter was originally put in as a Wolf Clan Representative to look after the welfare of our people, he has become involved with many "outsiders": who do not belong to the Oneida Nation (the people) or know little of Oneida Nation history to make decisions on our behalf. Most of the individuals in his council are not interested in a traditional government and do not participate in the ceremonies we've held on our territory for over the years. They are not true leaders. Whenever they assemble here for their meetings, they had never informed the people of what decisions they've made which effect us all. We are fearful, not of them, but of losing our traditions because of what they have done. We realize that we must continue our beliefs and traditions against all odds and must determine for ourselves what is best for our people. Only by overcoming the evil and corruption we have faced, can we accomplish and restore our land and people back to health and unity.

 

Recently you became aware the Center For Constitutional Rights on _your_ behalf, has filed a suit against Ray Halbritter, The Department of the Interior and Key Bank of New York. The Center For Constitutional Rights is a world-reknown legal organization which is very selective of it's clients. After six months of careful consideration, they were so convinced of the gross injustices and violations of human, civil and religious rights against our members, they decided to take on the case.

 

The letter you recently received was an attempt by Halbritter and his staff to confuse you about the law suit. The suit does not call to shut down Oneida Nation businesses! Find out for yourself and don't believe rumors, mis-truths or propaganda which only creates more of a wedge between families, brothers and sisters, aunts, uncles and cousins. Oneida people are all related. We are all Oneida and have the inherent right to know what decisions are being made on our behalf!

 

 

The Law Suit Addresses

Key Bank:

The 25 Million Dollar Loan Halbritter, through the Oneida Land Corporation (which he created) applied and received Millions of dollars from the Key Bank. If he claims the Nation is so successful, why would he use _everything_ the Oneida Nation owns as collateral? Why would he need a 25 million dollar loan? Will the Key Bank own what rightfully belongs to Oneida people?

 

 

We are the seventh generation...

Halbritter:

Human, Civil and Religious Rights Violated Halbritter is being sued personally. It is not a suit against the Oneida Nation. This law suit does not bring Federal law onto our territories. This law suit was filed as a civil case which means it represents the Oneida members, not just a few individuals.

 

 

Traditional Law Has Been Severely Violated

The heart of the law suit addresses that Human, Civil and Religious rights have been violated and does not specifically focus on the Oneida Nation businesses. However Halbritter has never accounted to the Oneida Nation members for any of its businesses. The recent Annual Report just printed does not include the normal business expenditures, income, salaries, investments and projections that typical organizations would provide to its stockholders. As Oneida Nation members, we are owners or stockholders of these enterprises.

 

Over one hundred Oneida members signed a petition for a Nation meeting, because Halbritter refused to hold nation or clan meetings. Since he refused to hold a Nation meeting, many Oneidas were punished for walking on the March For Democracy. Attached is a deposition from the Onew York State Police barring and arresting Gerald Schenandoah from the Bingo Hall - Oneida Nation property. He was a participant in the March For Democracy. Other Oneida's have also been arrested or threatened with arrest. The doors to the Oneida Nation Longhouse have been locked against its members. The last so-called nation meeting that Halbritter held, they would not allow anyone to speak with a threat of Oneida Nation police to remove anyone who did not adhere to their rules. A copy of the paper handed out is attached. People who went on the March For Democracy lost their membership benefits and jobs, they are no longer considered "Oneida" as far as the so-called Men's Council & Caln mothers are concerned. they were then summoned before the nation. Is this "court" order a traditional process?

 

The Environment:

As Oneida people, we are supposed to be guardians of the land and an example to the world in respect to environmental issues. Many Oneida people are completely unaware that the Turning Stone Casino was knowingly built on wetlands which destroys the environment. In addition it is common knowledge that the Casino sewage facility is not large enough for the amount of people they service. The suit calls to stop the construction of the Hotel which would continue to endanger the environment...Not to shut down any business.

 

Our Sovereignty:

The Oneida Nation police have New York State jurisdiction over our lands and our people. At a small community meeting 2 years ago, Halbritter promised that he would not allow New York State laws to be enforced on our land. In addition, Halbritter has offered to negotiate a "Tax Compact." His April 4 letter conveniently did not mention it. We were once considered free to govern ourselves, but not now.

 

We Are No Longer In Poverty:

The Oneida Nation has utilized over 17 million dollars in Federal funding over the past four years for Nation member services, but Halbritter would have you believe that these services come from Oneida Nation businesses. Many Oneida people are unemployed, lost their education benefits, and live near or below the poverty level. Some of our members who live on the territory are surviving on welfare and hand-outs from the Salvation Army. How many Oneida people are actually employed at Oneida Nation businesses?

 

The Lawsuit Against Obomsawin:

Many Oneidas are unaware that Halbritter is using State Law to try and prove that Raymond Obomsawin forged a letter from Nation attorneys saying there was a referendum on the gaming compact by the Oneida Nation. Indeed, there was no refererndum for Oneida people and we know Governor Cuomo had required a referendum for he Mohawk Nation. Why would the Nation spend over One Hundred Thousand dollars drying to prove the letter is a forgery? Was a referendum required? Let's give Cuomo a call and end this silly forgery suit. By the way, it is _not_ an extortion suit.

 

The Department Of Interior:

Removed as a Wolf Clan Representative Halbritter was traditional and legally removed as a Wolf Clan Representative for violating traditional law. He acted against the Oneida people numerous times, and was given three warnings. It is not required to have consensus from other clans in such an action. The Department of Interior is being sued for continuing to recognize him.

 

Your Representatives and Orchard Hill:

The Grand Council did not choose another government for the Oneida people. The law suit which has been filed will clearly illustrate the process by which leaders are chosen and deposed in a traditional manner. Ini addition, the Orchard Hill Oneidas have always been counted as a major part of the adult membership of the Oneida Nation of New York and heir numbers used to obtain Federal grants. To this day many of them do not have water which was promised years ago. Memvin Phillips has notified the Department of Interior that the Orchard Hill Oneidas are working in conjunction with the Traditional Oneidas to re-establish a Traditional form of government which will ultimately unite all of our members.

 

A Traditional Government Is Needed

We strongly encourage all Oneida people to look into your heart and do what is right for the next generation before it's too late. Attend the court hearing on June 17 at the Federal Court House 100 S. Clinton Street. Call Barbara O'lshansky at (212) 614-6464

Onen,

(signed)
Maisie Shenandoah, Wolf Clanmother
Thelma Buss, Turtle Clanmother
Raymond Obomsawin, Wolf Clan Rep.
Melvin Phillips, Turtle Clan Rep.

[Jumbo]

I will also note in the interest of fairness and accuracy that "redskins" (in a hostile/negative usage) and even "dirty redskins" (along with the more popular "savages") were not uncommon appellations in 40's/50's movies/tv westerns, as well as various literature. But this really has been a "manufactured" issue, IMO.

[Boss_Hogg]

Meet Melvin Phillips, a full blooded Oneida Native American. As a plus, he also supports the Washington Redskins.

 

[Boss_Hogg]

This may be slightly off topic but noteworthy. The University of Colorado at Boulder has urged all students to not wear "culturally offensive"  Halloween costumes.

 

According to Gonzales, CU students have chosen costumes that "included blackface or sombreros/serapes," overly sexualized "geishas," "squaws" and stereotypes such as cowboys and Indians. They have also hosted "offensively-themed parties," including "ghetto," "white trash/hillbilly" and "sex work."

 

So now cowboys are offensive in Colorado? I mean I've always been offended by the Dallas Cowboys but I'm not gonna go around crying like a little **** about it.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/colorado-halloween-costume-ban-125854491.html

[Duckus]

I just saw this branding "proposal" for Washington Redhawks.

 

Keep the colors and use the classic R logo with the feathers. I actually really like it (if we have to change our name of course). Does a nice job of keeping part of our history. 

 

http://www.behance.net/gallery/Washington-Redhawks-Brand-Proposal/11458543

 

 

 

 

 

 

More here - http://www.behance.net/gallery/Washington-Redhawks-Brand-Proposal/11458543

[CrypticVillain]

That's not bad...

[Major Harris]

This is perhaps in the wrong thread...

 

If you are against the name, how did you come to the point where you continued to cheer for the team ?

 

I stopped eating at Chick-fil-a  (sp?)....I loved their product, but wil not endorse their stance on certain topics.

Not everyone can make useless self serving sacrifices.

[Larry]

This is perhaps in the wrong thread...

 

If you are against the name, how did you come to the point where you continued to cheer for the team ?

 

I stopped eating at Chick-fil-a  (sp?)....I loved their product, but wil not endorse their stance on certain topics.

 

I'm not certain, but I don't think there's a single person in this thread who thinks that the Redskins name is a racial slur. 

 

I suspect you'll find that all, or at least most, of the folks who "are against the name", it's more a case of "I want the argument to go away, and I figure it's not going to go away till we change it, and I figure that we will eventually lose the debate, so why not give in now?" 

[Commander PK]

Can anybody find an explanation of the process Oxford goes through to arrive at their definitions?  I have asked the question a thousand different ways, and can find nothing online to indicate what benchmarks and requirements must be met to "define" a word, or  what requirements must be met to change or augment the definition of a word, etc. 

 

For me, in order to find that a word means "usually disparaging and offensive" or something similar, when in decades past that was not the case...you would have to have found some evidence of such.  Written documentation, historical context, research of available media etc.  I'm not saying that none exists.  I have just yet to see any.   

[Bang]

Eh, my reaction to that Redhawks gear is better than I expected.. but they won't allow the feathers or spear, i'd wager.

~Bang

[Commander PK]

Larry, see below...

 

 

 

The question isn't whether redskins is an insulting slur.   It certainly has been and is currently according to any reputable dictionary you would like to consult.

[Chew]

I just think its hilarious that so many members of the media don't refer to us as the Redskins, but rather "Washington Football Team," as if they're "sticking it to the man." 

[Commander PK]

Eh, my reaction to that Redhawks gear is better than I expected.. but they won't allow the feathers or spear, i'd wager.

~Bang

 

Exactly.  Still too Native American...and many opponents like Harjo have made it clear they do not want Native American imagery used at all by "the disease."  So the Washington Redhawks as designed there will not make our problem go away.  We would change the name, and still leave the team open for criticism.  I would want to name the team something that is beyond reproach other than you just like it or you don't like it.  You would not want to have to do this again, or still be facing similar criticism.  If you do it to make the problem go away...than make it go away for good and forever. 

[Predicto]

 

technically, it 'could' be 'offensive', even if it technically is never actually used that way. but you could say that about alot of words.

 

its not that different -in terms of dictionary definition vs how words are commonly and obviously actually used- as **** and fag. the dictionary lists 'penis' as the very last definition.  and doesnt list 'slang term for homosexual' for fag either, even though both are clearly the most common definition of the terms- by miles- in this country. 

 

you will find some of the most obscure definitions of words- definitions you would never, ever use or ones that havent been used literally in a century- in the dictionary.

 

why they list the most obscure definitions over the most common ones, i dont know. 

 

but its enough reason to not put stock in the dictionary as the end all, be all as far as how people in this country (including native americans) actually define and use words. 

 

Of course, the word "fag" can mean a cigarette if you are in England.  Dick can mean a private investigator.   

 

I might buy this argument if we didn't have a Native American as our logo.   But we do.  The connection is unavoidable.  We intend the connection to be there.   BY being called the Washington Redskins, we absolutely mean it to be understood as a word that refers to the Native American theme of our franchise.   That makes it very hard (I would say impossible) to separate the word as a team name from the word as defined in the abstract.

[Commander PK]

I just think its hilarious that so many members of the media don't refer to us as the Redskins, but rather "Washington Football Team," as if they're "sticking it to the man." 

 

you know...honestly.  I've gotten to the point that I no longer care.  If we never see the name "Redskins" in print ever again, by anyone.  What does it matter really?  Call them Washington Football Club, Washington, "that team from D.C." etc. etc. if it helps you sleep at night.  The fans know what the team's name is. 

I think the best thing that we as fans of the team could do, is stop paying any attention when you read something by a reporter who bends over backwards to not use the team's name.  Pay it no mind.  Who cares?  Of course you will notice, but don't let it bother you. 

 

something like that will only have teeth if we allow it to have teeth.  When you see it, just laugh and shake your head.

[Predicto]

This is perhaps in the wrong thread...

 

If you are against the name, how did you come to the point where you continued to cheer for the team ?

 

I stopped eating at Chick-fil-a  (sp?)....I loved their product, but wil not endorse their stance on certain topics.

 

 

Because I know that the name is not intended to offend.   It is a historical remnant, just like the word "colored" in NAACP.  Whether the name is changed is a question of cultural sensitivity, but not direct hostility toward Native Americans.  

 

In contrast, Chick-fil-a affirmatively wants to be indentified with opposition to gay marriage.   

[Chew]

you know...honestly.  I've gotten to the point that I no longer care.  If we never see the name "Redskins" in print ever again, by anyone.  What does it matter really?  Call them Washington Football Club, Washington, "that team from D.C." etc. etc. if it helps you sleep at night.  The fans know what the team's name is. 

I think the best thing that we as fans of the team could do, is stop paying any attention when you read something by a reporter who bends over backwards to not use the team's name.  Pay it no mind.  Who cares?  Of course you will notice, but don't let it bother you. 

 

something like that will only have teeth if we allow it to have teeth.  When you see it, just laugh and shake your head.

I like your attitude!  I feel the same way.

 

Wasn't really ranting or anything, it doesn't bother me one bit about what some of the "holier than thou" media folks refer to our team as.  Just think its funny.  Many of them probably feel like they're "doing their part" and fighting the good fight for the cause.  Morons. 

[Predicto]

Exactly.  Still too Native American...and many opponents like Harjo have made it clear they do not want Native American imagery used at all by "the disease."  So the Washington Redhawks as designed there will not make our problem go away.  We would change the name, and still leave the team open for criticism.  I would want to name the team something that is beyond reproach other than you just like it or you don't like it.  You would not want to have to do this again, or still be facing similar criticism.  If you do it to make the problem go away...than make it go away for good and forever. 

 

I think it likely that the longer the team holds out against changing the name, the more likely it is that opposition will become more intractable and the more people will listen to the Susan Harjos of the world.  

 

On the other hand, if Dan Snyder came out tomorrow and said: "I wish to honor Native Americans and I have come to understand that the work "redskin" is outdated, and I have decided to be sensitive and change the name to the Washington Warriors (or the Washinton Natives or the Washington Name of Tribe that we just cut a deal with like the Florida State Seminoles)" everyone would clap and the controversy would go away.  Susan Harjo probably would still complain, but no one would listen much.  Or, more likely, she would turn to getting rid of that awful Cheif Wahoo logo that the Cleveland Indians use.

[Commander PK]

I think it likely that the longer the team holds out against changing the name, the more likely it is that opposition will become more intractable and the more people will listen to the Susan Harjos of the world.  

 

On the other hand, if Dan Snyder came out tomorrow and said: "I wish to honor Native Americans and I have come to understand that the work "redskin" is outdated, and I have decided to be sensitive and change the name to the Washington Warriors (or the Washinton Natives or the Washington Name of Tribe that we just cut a deal with like the Florida State Seminoles)" everyone would clap and the controversy would go away.  Susan Harjo probably would still complain, but no one would listen much.  Or, more likely, she would turn to getting rid of that awful Cheif Wahoo logo that the Cleveland Indians use.

 

that is a possibility...but that would basically be Dan Snyder attempting to appease people.  "Be reasonable Dan...let's compromise."  Dan: "Ok, fine...you win."  Right now, I see no reason for him to appease or compromise.  If we had evidence that shows Native Americans at large and in large percentage are offended by the team's name...maybe that time will come.  We aren't there yet in my opinion.  I just don't see evidence that enough Native American people are legitimately offended by the name.  How many are too many?  What percentage qualifies as enough?  I'm not sure...but definitely more than we have right now.  As I have said in the past, whether it offends me or people of other races or not really doesn't matter.  You don't get to be offended for somebody on their behalf, unless they are also offended...the premise that you can be defies logic. 

 

and the question remains.  Why is more attention not paid to the Native's who have spoken out for the name when asked?  Why are their opinions dismissed as not as important?     

[Predicto]

that is a possibility...but that would basically be Dan Snyder attempting to appease people.  "Be reasonable Dan...let's compromise."  Dan: "Ok, fine...you win."  Right now, I see no reason for him to appease or compromise.  If we had evidence that shows Native Americans at large and in large percentage are offended by the team's name...maybe that time will come.  We aren't there yet in my opinion.  I just don't see evidence that enough Native American people are legitimately offended by the name.  How many are too many?  What percentage qualifies as enough?  I'm not sure...but definitely more than we have right now.  As I have said in the past, whether it offends me or people of other races or not really doesn't matter.  You don't get to be offended for somebody on their behalf, unless they are also offended...the premise that you can be defies logic. 

 

and the question remains.  Why is more attention not paid to the Native's who have spoken out for the name when asked?  Why are their opinions dismissed as not as important?     

 

And now we are back at the beginning.  

 

I just wanted to suggest that it is not a done deal that if we stop using the word "redskin" we will lose the logo, the imagery, the song, the colors.   The power of this controversy really comes from the fact that the word "redskin" is controversial in 2013.

[JMS]

True.

However, to fall under the premises of "offensive" it does help if a significant number of people find it offensive.

See, if there were a consensus that the name is offensive, we wouldn't even be having this argument.

 

Consensus of Native Americans.    Yes when the federal lower court vacated the FTC's findings  it wasn't just because the folks brining the case were too far removed from 18.    The judge also made a comment about having to prove a reasonable number of Native Americans were offended by the name.    Whatever percentage that means.

 

 

But, instead, there's a very broad consensus that the name of the team isn't offensive. But some people are trying to claim that it is, anyway. Through the technique of "well, if we could just change the discussion from 'is the name of the football team offensive' to 'would the name be offensive if it had a different word in it' or 'would this word be offensive if it were deliberately used for the purpose of being offensive'"

There's a reason why the people pushing for the name to be changed, keep trying to avoid the question "is the name 'The Washington Redskins" offensive?" It's because that question has already been answered. And the answer is "no".

 

Actually the FTC did rule it was a disparaging term and therefore could not be trademarked... adding Washington in front of it I don't think changes that.

I do not know how "robust" that poll was you were citing; and I do not know if the folks bringing the case couldn't bring out their own poll to counter it...

If we have a shot of keeping the franchise trademark,   it's going to hing on those issues.

 

 

 

that is a possibility...but that would basically be Dan Snyder attempting to appease people.  "Be reasonable Dan...let's compromise."  Dan: "Ok, fine...you win."  Right now, I see no reason for him to appease or compromise.  If we had evidence that shows Native Americans at large and in large percentage are offended by the team's name...maybe that time will come.  We aren't there yet in my opinion.  I just don't see evidence that enough Native American people are legitimately offended by the name.  How many are too many?  What percentage qualifies as enough?  I'm not sure...but definitely more than we have right now.  As I have said in the past, whether it offends me or people of other races or not really doesn't matter.  You don't get to be offended for somebody on their behalf, unless they are also offended...the premise that you can be defies logic. 

 

and the question remains.  Why is more attention not paid to the Native's who have spoken out for the name when asked?  Why are their opinions dismissed as not as important?     

 

 

I read somewhere Danny already claimed the rights to the name Washington Braves or something like that....

 

The trademark is worth 200 million or about 20% of the franchise's value.   If Dan looses it;  I can't see him continuing with the Redskins name even if he says otherwise.    Dan isn't going to abandon the name because it's really going to hit his bottom line to do it.     The only way he would change the name is if keeping it is financially worse.