The Official ES All Things Redskins Name Change Thread (Reboot Edition---Read New OP)

[Bonez3]

I will argue the slur thing till the cows come home.

I have recognized its 'offensive' to a minority of people. But no majority has ever recognized it as a slur.

Slurs transcend all groups of society. I've heard just about every slur to every ethnicity. I have lived in the southwest. I never even remotely heard the word inferred as slur.

Could it be used in derogatory context, of course.

What I'm convinced of further is that the end game is removal of all NA imagery from sports. Redskins are the lightening rod and lynch pin because of its RACIAL name.

There is virtually no line between Indians and Redskins. And if you asked me honestly, I'd say Indians is the more derogatory term.

[grego]

Great post. I'll ask this though, and I've asked it before and this is not directed toward you or your post, but; 

 

What is the endgame?

 

 

 

i have a theory about that. 

 

i think there are basically 3 kinds of people demanding a name change. theres the racist nuts (harjo and blackhorse) who have been banging this drum for a long time. they are true believers- i dont think theres any financial motivation here. they actually believe they are doing the right thing. like a follower of an extra-nutty religion- they believe in their hearts they are right, and cant be convinced otherwise despite any actual facts you present. 

 

then there are the opportunists.i think there are those in it for the financial gain- and i'm not hating, necessarily. i think the conditions on reservations suck, so for some leaders to seek political recognition (note the letter signed by -49? or was it 50?- senators), i have no problem with that. there will be some kind of benefit for native americans when half on congress is signing a bill about the redskins name. its politics. and it explains how things like the annenberg poll are probably right on, and the redskins going to reservations and talking to actual NA's and finding its not an issue, and why NAs use the word for their mascots, etc. many dont have a problem with the name, but they want recognition for their plight. after all, outside of this issue, when has anyone talked about native americans? 

 

now, halbritters a scoundrel. i dont have links handy, but its not hard to find out about this guy. hes apparently not even a real oneida. hes a businessman whos in it for himself, and theres absolutely no doubt about it. 

 

the third kind of person demanding a name change are people like bob costas, UnWise Mike, lindsey czarniak, dungy, etc. while theres a bit of 'true believer' in them, they are not 100% on the true believers side (costas still defends 'chiefs', braves, ets, while harjo and blackhorse want all NA names gone). these are people who accept the true believers words without questioning them and defend them simply because it makes them feel good. people love a cause to get behind when they feel like they are making a positive difference in the world. some people are animal rights people, some people volunteer in homeless shelters and soup kitchens, and some people are civil rights people, and they feel that this is an issue of a downtrodden people needing their help. 

 

its a noble cause. just a misguided one. its an emotionally driven thing.

 

thats how i see this. for me, things have to 'make sense' in as much as things can make sense. and this is how i make sense of this issue. 

[SWFLSkins]

Great post. I'll ask this though, and I've asked it before and this is not directed toward you or your post, but; 

 

What is the endgame?

 

Many within this thread say there is an agenda.  What is that agenda? What do the people win if the name is changed?  If the people who say they are offended "win the battle" and the name is changed, what do they win? What do they get? Do they get money? 

 

 

 

 

I try to put myself in the place of a NA and I see a lot of different things. On one hand, I'm proud that there are sports teams using NA imagery.  On the other hand, I do think it would annoy me that non NA people are trying to tell me what should and/or should not offend me.

 

 

The end game is power for oneself and not the people as a whole, that almost always ends up not giving you what you wanted to begin with. 

http://sonofwashington.com/the-name-remains-the-same/ Just some of the great info from the SOW article and is my point overall.......   The Harm In Changing The Name

After all of that evidence, perhaps some may remain unconvinced, or at the very least, take umbrage with the assertion made at the beginning of this article that stated “changing the name would do more harm than good.”

The Native American community has witnessed years and years of funding neglect from congress

Here’s why it’s true: what most people outside of Indian reservations don’t know is that tribal people often self-classify as “brown Indians” and they resent “white Indians” for what they perceive to be favored status among Americans of European decent. It’s these self-classified “brown Indians” that tend to be the most disenfranchised.

Indeed, the incredible number and depth of socioeconomic problems on Indian reservations completely outweighs the scope of this article to categorize. Suffice to say, the conditions on reservations are often deplorable.

Not everyone owns a casino, folks

[Kosher Ham]

Nabisco should be forced to change the cookie name by any and all bi-racial people that are offended.

 

It was actually a good point. I have heard a lot of people called that.

[Bonez3]

The end game is petty... It's removal of all NA imagery.

And when Costas and Olberman and Wise ultimately realize that, I want to see their comments.

Like I said, those NAs that are offended by the term, I would like to see follow up poll question asked if they're offended by Indians, Chiefs, etc.

I think that would make up the majority if this minority. Shows you what you're dealing with

[grego]

Nabisco should be forced to change the cookie name by any and all bi-racial people that are offended.

 

It was actually a good point. I have heard a lot of people called that.

 

 

in the sense that its an originally benign word that is a slur only when actually used as a slur- yes, its the same. 

 

and my money is on 'oreo' being used a hell of a lot more as a slur than redskin. 

[codeorama]

in the sense that its an originally benign word that is a slur only when actually used as a slur- yes, its the same. 

 

and my money is on 'oreo' being used a hell of a lot more as a slur than redskin. 

I agree, but, the word Oreo didn't originate as a slur.  Many would argue that Redskin did. 

[Kosher Ham]

in the sense that its an originally benign word that is a slur only when actually used as a slur- yes, its the same. 

 

and my money is on 'oreo' being used a hell of a lot more as a slur than redskin. 

 

It is used on a regular basis by many people.

 

I never got it as a kid. As an adult I realized that it was more than teasing. It was meant to be derogatory.

[RonArtest15]

I mean, you also have to wonder about imagery....Uncle Ben's rice...Aunt Jemima's syrup....Annie the Chicken Queen (Popeyes)...etc.  Not to mention the definition of Oklahoma.  Like I asked a few pages ago...what's the endgame here? 

[Kosher Ham]

I agree, but, the word Oreo didn't originate as a slur.  Many would argue that Redskin did. 

 

Then why would Natives defend it ? Can't be that offensive... Right ?

 

Redskin(s) didn't either. Have you not read this thread that you have participated in so frequently ?

[grego]

Definition of OREO

usually disparaging

:  a black person who adopts the characteristic mentality and behavior of white middle-class society

Origin of OREO

from Oreo, trademark for a chocolate cookie with a white cream filling

First Known Use: 1969

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/oreo

----------------------------------------------------------------

 

somebody better tell bob costas, since 'dictionary defined slur' was his main talking point with cooley the other day. the only difference between oreo and redskin is webster actually bothering to mention the obvious, far more common meaning for oreo. they dont list 'origin' or mention the football team for redskin. 

 

interesting. 

I agree, but, the word Oreo didn't originate as a slur.  Many would argue that Redskin did. 

 

 

except it didnt, code. that research has been done. 

 

http://anthropology.si.edu/goddard/redskin.pdf

 

check out the first page, top middle paragraph. notice who he calls out by name. 

[Kosher Ham]

I mean, you also have to wonder about imagery....Uncle Ben's rice...Aunt Jemima's syrup....Annie the Chicken Queen (Popeyes)...etc.  Not to mention the definition of Oklahoma.  Like I asked a few pages ago...what's the endgame here? 

 

I do know that Aunt Jemima has changed over the years. The others not so sure.

 

I would have changed it to an Asian or Hispanic woman...just because.

 

I agree with the point of where does it end.

 

Will PETA get involved to protect animals ? It's ridiculous.

[grego]

kosher, you have just discovered the greatest rebuttle ever to the dictionary argument when it comes to defending 'redskins', and a perfect example of why its bogus.

[blueskin]

I agree, but, the word Oreo didn't originate as a slur.  Many would argue that Redskin did. 

 

And many (with evidence) would argue that it was first coined by eastern tribes themselves to distinguish themselves from euros.  Thus, 'redskin' didn't originate as a slur, either.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

this isn't a political issue for the lefties?  really?  ok

 

I don't label the people against the name....I just think they're wrong

 

Oh it's definitely a political issue all around, even for the NA leaders championing the name change.

[Kosher Ham]

kosher, you have just discovered the greatest rebuttle ever to the dictionary argument when it comes to defending 'redskins', and a perfect example of why its bogus.

 

Haha. I don't want to have lofty expectations.

 

To give credit where it is due...of all names...blueskin. 

Perhaps he is a Smurf...wait is that offensive ? Damn. I always mess up.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I mean, you also have to wonder about imagery....Uncle Ben's rice...Aunt Jemima's syrup....Annie the Chicken Queen (Popeyes)...etc.  Not to mention the definition of Oklahoma.  Like I asked a few pages ago...what's the endgame here? 

 

The end game for who?

 

The name-changers? For the top NAs/activists heading the charge, more political power for them personally and the beginning of the end of using NA names and imagery in sports. Harjo and Halwhatshisass would not be putting all this effort into getting the name changed if it didn't benefit them personally in any way, shape or form. If they succeed, though, it likely gives them far more power within the NA community and gives them a "seat at the table" in Washington, so to speak. That's their end game and they're not gonna let go of it easily. Especially Halwhatshisbutt...he's a casino owner so he already has money...with a victory on this name issue he's gonna have power as well. He ain't gonna let go of that, no way.

 

For the pro-name side? Keep the branding in place and preserve the reputation of the team and its history. Tradition and emotion both play huge roles in the experience of being a fan of an NFL team...and both have triggers in a team's name and helmet emblem. It's a shared connection through the decades for fans from 8 to 80. The uniforms change somewhat and there are periods when the emblem may as well...but the overall look is always tied together through the team colors and always tied to the name. Holds a huge emotional value and a huge monetary value because of it. And people don't give up traditions easily. They need to be convinced beyond measure that there are incredibly good, valid reasons to do so.

[grego]

 

Haha. I don't want to have lofty expectations.

 

To give credit where it is due...of all names...blueskin. 

Perhaps he is a Smurf...wait is that offensive ? Damn. I always mess up.

 

 

here, i thought '****' (it gets bleeped, but a four letter word for rooster) was the best example of a less common definition being provided as the 'main' definition by websters. 

 

"oreo" definitely pummels my "****"

 

 

seriously, somebody better email costas. i'm dying to hear his response. 

actually, 'yankee' was a really good one, but since nobody cares about whiteys, it doesnt work nearly as well

[Califan007 The Constipated]

in the sense that its an originally benign word that is a slur only when actually used as a slur- yes, its the same. 

 

and my money is on 'oreo' being used a hell of a lot more as a slur than redskin. 

 

I've been called an "oreo" many times while growing up, both by blacks and whites. Never meant in a good way.

[Kosher Ham]

I am offended by pizza places that claim to have NY style pizza, yet they do not.

 

The "oreo" thing was a great point. I love it.

[codeorama]

Then why would Natives defend it ? Can't be that offensive... Right ?

Redskin(s) didn't either. Have you not read this thread that you have participated in so frequently ?

As I've said, not all are offended. Just some. Same can be said for the N word, correct? Don't say that's not true. I'm a HS teacher. The N word is used constantly. 4 years ago, if would get an automatic suspension. This year, it's not even as bad as the F word.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

From PFT's game predictions article:

 

 

Washington at Texans

 

MDS’s take: J.J. Watt and Jadeveon Clowney will be chasing Robert Griffin III all over the field, and the Texans will get off to a 1-0 start after losing their last 14 games in 2013.

MDS’s pick: Texans 20, Washington 10.

 

Florio’s take:  A couple of new coaches of teams that combined for five wins last year square off.  Somehow, one of these two squads will emerge with a “W”.  While Washngton could have the better season, Houston will have the better day.

Florio’s pick:  Texans 17, Washington 10.

 

 

Yeah, you saw it lol...(or didn't see it, to be literal)

 

 

 

As I've said, not all are offended. Just some. Same can be said for the N word, correct? Don't say that's not true. I'm a HS teacher. The N word is used constantly. 4 years ago, if would get an automatic suspension. This year, it's not even as bad as the F word.

 

No. Trust me.

 

And there's a difference between "being offended" and "finding it offensive". There is a huge percentage of NAs that not only aren't offended by the word "Redskin" but don't even find it offensive. While there may be a small percentage of Blacks who aren't offended when called the "N-word" (mainly because they simply choose not to be), you'd be hardpressed to find any who don't find the word offensive.

[Boss_Hogg]

 

Will PETA get involved to protect animals ? It's ridiculous.

 

Actually

 

http://journaltimes.com/peta-protests-packers-name/article_c73b0cbd-52e9-5b3a-b4a9-027025395f68.html

[codeorama]

From PFT's game predictions article:

 

 

Washington at Texans

 

MDS’s take: J.J. Watt and Jadeveon Clowney will be chasing Robert Griffin III all over the field, and the Texans will get off to a 1-0 start after losing their last 14 games in 2013.

MDS’s pick: Texans 20, Washington 10.

 

Florio’s take:  A couple of new coaches of teams that combined for five wins last year square off.  Somehow, one of these two squads will emerge with a “W”.  While Washngton could have the better season, Houston will have the better day.

Florio’s pick:  Texans 17, Washington 10.

 

 

Yeah, you saw it lol...(or didn't see it, to be literal)

 

 

 

 

No. Trust me.

 

And there's a difference between "being offended" and "finding it offensive". There is a huge percentage of NAs that not only aren't offended by the word "Redskin" but don't even find it offensive. While there may be a small percentage of Blacks who aren't offended when called the "N-word" (mainly because they simply choose not to be), you'd be hardpressed to find any who don't find the word offensive.

 

The N word is used constantly.  If you like, I can take a video of the people playing basketball on the school courts beside my son's football practce. N this, N that, N please...   Non stop.  In school.  I'd love to take a video of the hallways. Same thing.  It's pointless to even fight it at the school level because its so constant.  As I've stated before, I have a co teacher because we have a few SPED students and she is a 50+ year old black woman who is EXTREMELY offended by the use of the N word.  She wrote up a student tuesday, the first day of school.  No discipline.  Both deans are black. Our principal is black.  2 of the 4 AP's are black.

[Bang]

The N word is used constantly.  If you like, I can take a video of the people playing basketball on the school courts beside my son's football practce. N this, N that, N please...   Non stop.  In school.  I'd love to take a video of the hallways. Same thing.  It's pointless to even fight it at the school level because its so constant.  As I've stated before, I have a co teacher because we have a few SPED students and she is a 50+ year old black woman who is EXTREMELY offended by the use of the N word.  She wrote up a student tuesday, the first day of school.  No discipline.  Both deans are black. Our principal is black.  2 of the 4 AP's are black.

 

It would seem to me that a word that has it's roots in negativity has been co-opted into something else, and now means something different to the majority of people who use it.

 

 

Sort of proves the whole point of the origin of a word being pointless to it's current usage or association.

 

~Bang