Mike Shanahan.. Extension or move on, what would you do ?

[Skinzfever2010]

I don't understand some of the logic in here. Haslett took orders from Mike. He offered his own perspective on what we should do with our defense and Mike forced him to do what he thought was best.

Mike needs to change if he wants to be here. UnWise Mike was onto something in his article last week. Admit your wrong and have been wrong about things that have contributed to the failure of the first three years, give yourself some credit for not over spending on has beens and make changes to correct problems.

We're not going to be in a good position next year with the cap hit and no draft picks. The mistakes he made in year 1 are doing us in. We didn't need to send Philly two picks. We also didn't need to gut the 4-3.

[Skinzfever2010]

That's great and all Diesel, but are you really comparing Shanny to Knoll? The Redskins to the Steelers? That era of football to today's era? You do realize that they had the greatest draft class of all-time, right?

Yeah, I'm not understanding that. Thats almost as extreme as Lakers & Redskins

[SWFLSkins]

Losing games was expected, how they are losing is what is troubling.

I took Coughlin two years to turnaround the Giants and then four to win a SB, then hit the skids again and almost got fired before winning it all again. He walked into a team that had some parts, Shanahan did not have the parts. I do agree though it is troubling that the only parts the team seemed to have was on D and that has gone down hill since his arrival. Now granted losing Orakpo and Carriker, not having a true starting safety on the roster is hard to overcome, it is troubling that the one strength of the team has since dwindled, can Shanahan manage a complete team makeover as Coughlin managed to do?

Can the fans and the owner be forgiving enough in the process? Will the Coach make the right moves going forward?

[illone]

Hmmm... that makes it tougher. If ya keep Mike I would try to extend Kyle. I do like the offense he's designed and called. Imagine the last two games with fifteen more catches instead of drops. Sigh.

Drops and poor discipline are a direct result of poor coaching. Skins have some talent and you can see WR get open, there are lanes to run in, and tackles to be made on defense. This team historically plays to the level of it's competition. i.e. losing to teams like Detroit/Cincy and beating teams like NYG and Green Bay.

Three years is long enough to at least instill discipline and how to catch or tackle. Basic football concepts seem to be lost on this team.

It all boils down to leadership. Leadership at the top of this organization is dysfunctional.

[Skinzfever2010]

I took Coughlin two years to turnaround the Giants and then four to win a SB, then hit the skids again and almost got fired before winning it all again. He walked into a team that had some parts, Shanahan did not have the parts. I do agree though it is troubling that the only parts the team seemed to have was on D and that has gone down hill since his arrival. Now granted losing Orakpo and Carriker, not having a true starting safety on the roster is hard to overcome, it is troubling that the one strength of the team has since dwindled, can Shanahan manage a complete team makeover as Coughlin managed to do?

I'm sorry but thats bull ****. Mike inherited A TOP DEFENSE that needed some fine tuning. He had a strong secondary and a solid DE/LB in Brian Orakpo. The offense is what needed to be retooled.

The first thing he did wrong was completely destroy this team's strength. Stop being in denial. Gibbs II inherited a real mess.

[Diss]

it just doesn't matter. We have a clown running the show who doesn't know the first thing about organizational leadership.

Now that's the truth. It all comes back to this every year, doesn't it? I've tried to downplay the role that this plays on team performance over the years, but it's the only constant.

I have no idea what to do at this point. New coach? Sure, bring in another sacrificial lamb. Keep Shanny? Sure, why the hell not. I'm just numb to this team's ineptitude. I think I can honestly say I've seen it all at this point.

I guess I would have to lean toward staying the course at least another year, because that at least goes against the grain.

But it's gonna be a Looonnngg second half of the season, I'm afraid.

[Lavarleap56]

NM...useless to state it here.

Just fire up the torches and continue burning........

nobody is burning torches.. just brainstorming a situation. Bye week and its just a discussion. This isnt meant to be a ZOMG Shanny thread.

---------- Post added November-11th-2012 at 02:44 PM ----------

Hard to see Kyle not being extended though. No?

As for Mike - totally depends in my mind on how next season goes. If its not at least 9 wins then I think its time to move on ..

What if he doesn't want a extension....

---------- Post added November-11th-2012 at 02:49 PM ----------

Chuck Noll

1969: 1-13

1970: 5-9

1971: 6-8

And he drafted his franchise Qb in 1970 and it still took him 2 years to start winning.

Once again, Redskins fans claim they have patience and could sit through a rebuild. That notion is extremely laughable.

Damn how in the hell did I miss Chuck Noll lol.. good stuff

Patience for a rebuild is easy.. The issues the team is having are not from a rebuild.

---------- Post added November-11th-2012 at 02:54 PM ----------

I took Coughlin two years to turnaround the Giants and then four to win a SB, then hit the skids again and almost got fired before winning it all again. He walked into a team that had some parts, Shanahan did not have the parts. I do agree though it is troubling that the only parts the team seemed to have was on D and that has gone down hill since his arrival. Now granted losing Orakpo and Carriker, not having a true starting safety on the roster is hard to overcome, it is troubling that the one strength of the team has since dwindled, can Shanahan manage a complete team makeover as Coughlin managed to do?

Can the fans and the owner be forgiving enough in the process? Will the Coach make the right moves going forward?

You could make the argument that the football team is in the same shape as when shanny took over minus RG3.

[SittingBull]

I'm sorry but thats bull ****. Mike inherited A TOP DEFENSE that needed some fine tuning. He had a strong secondary and a solid DE/LB in Brian Orakpo. The offense is what needed to be retooled.

The first thing he did wrong was completely destroy this team's strength. Stop being in denial. Gibbs II inherited a real mess.

I agree with you that our biggest strength became our biggest weakness but our defense was in need of an overhaul regardless. Our defensive line's avg age had to be 35 with carter, wynn, daniels and griffin. And our best CB in Rogers wanted out.

[Lavarleap56]

I agree with you that our biggest strength became our biggest weakness but our defense was in need of an overhaul regardless. Our defensive line's avg age had to be 35 with carter, wynn, daniels and griffin. And our best CB in Rogers wanted out.

Shannahan hasnt had a strong history building a defense as a GM/HC.. Think that is more a indictment on his GM abilities than coaching.

[SWFLSkins]

I took Coughlin two years to turnaround the Giants and then four to win a SB, then hit the skids again and almost got fired before winning it all again. He walked into a team that had some parts, Shanahan did not have the parts. I do agree though it is troubling that the only parts the team seemed to have was on D and that has gone down hill since his arrival. Now granted losing Orakpo and Carriker, not having a true starting safety on the roster is hard to overcome, it is troubling that the one strength of the team has since dwindled, can Shanahan manage a complete team makeover as Coughlin managed to do?

Can the fans and the owner be forgiving enough in the process? Will the Coach make the right moves going forward?

I'm sorry but thats bull ****. Mike inherited A TOP DEFENSE that needed some fine tuning. He had a strong secondary and a solid DE/LB in Brian Orakpo. The offense is what needed to be retooled.

The first thing he did wrong was completely destroy this team's strength. Stop being in denial. Gibbs II inherited a real mess.

Comprehension is your friend, ........friend.

......I said as much. And it is the reason I used Coughlin as an example, he took that strength and built on it, while building the O and the ST's, can Shanahan do the same, it is suspect at this point and reason for concern.

[Bigmuss1]

Extension, new DC and other coaches.

Gotta keep him and Kyle

[Lavarleap56]

I agree with you that our biggest strength became our biggest weakness but our defense was in need of an overhaul regardless. Our defensive line's avg age had to be 35 with carter, wynn, daniels and griffin. And our best CB in Rogers wanted out.

Shannahan hasn't had a strong history building a defense as a GM/HC.. Think that is more a indictment on his GM abilities than coaching.

[REDSKYNYRD]

"I" would extend Shanahan and son for 1 more year and fire Jim Haslett and Danny Smith yesterday. I would not hire anyone over 50 years old that "has-been" with another losing team OR sell the team and cut my losses. This never ending re-build has lasted long enough. IMO.

[DieselPwr44]

That's great and all Diesel, but are you really comparing Shanny to Knoll? The Redskins to the Steelers? That era of football to today's era? You do realize that they had the greatest draft class of all-time, right?

That wasn't until 1974.

By ES standards, Noll would be fired in 71 and the Steelers dominance of the 70's never happens.

[Skinzfever2010]

Our 4-3 needed a young aggressive Dline and another LB. Our secondary was off the chain. Dhall, Los, Landry, were a strong trio. We should've drafted a nasty FS. It didn't need to be blown up. They were ballin in 2010.

[SWFLSkins]

Patience for a rebuild is easy.. The issues the team is having are not from a rebuild.

You could make the argument that the football team is in the same shape as when shanny took over minus RG3.

The offense is dramatically and statistically better with many more young players. The defense is worse and the ST's are the same, not great, not good and inconsistent still. The defensive backfield bandaid failed this year. He throw players and a coach at it and it failed. Through injuries and poor coaching the defense has failed to support the team.

[SWFLSkins]

Shannahan hasnt had a strong history building a defense as a GM/HC.. Think that is more a indictment on his GM abilities than coaching.

I agree and he should let it be handled by someone else, I think he thought Haslett was that guy, he was wrong, time to move forward./

[KingGibbs]

That wasn't until 1974.

By ES standards, Noll would be fired in 71 and the Steelers dominance of the 70's never happens.

Except Knoll was able to improve each year before that draft. Shanny is regressing. Like someone else said. If you take RGIII out of the equation, this team would potentially be one of the worst teams in the league and that's an indictment on Shanny.

Don't get me wrong, I WANT Shany to succeed. Too many signs point in the direction of him NOT succeeding.

[Lavarleap56]

I re-read the orignal post of this thread. The question is about whether the Skins should offer Shanahan an extension to his five year contract sometime during 2013, to avoid him being a 'lame' duck coach in the 2014 season.

My answer would be that this decision is better deferred to the latter half of the 2013 season, allowing Snyder & co. a greater sense if the team is headed in the right direction. Frankly, it's not clear to me that Shanahan would actually want a second contract of any length, because he'd be 63 as it started. (As a reminder Gibbs II started when he was almost 64.) If so, I suspect it might be a contract with time-tables for transitioning responsibilities to his heir apparent(s).

Also the original post suggested that Shanahan would likely have a very tough time showing improvement in the 2013 season, because he would be breaking in a new DC, OC, and trying to re-stock the team losses (13 Skins contracts expire) with no 1st round pick, and a cap-penalty. So, under that scenario, maybe the decision has to be made now? That raised a lot of 'fire Mike now" comments -- but I don't believe that would be wise.

My take is that I think Mike can prevail on Kyle to stay. Haslett's got a contract, but it's very possible he could be let go, if a suitable replacement could be coaxed into coming here. The interesting thing is whether Slowik and Smith are retained. I suspect Smith survives another year, but if a new DC is brought in, the deal might involve autonomy on selecting his defensive coaching staff, in which case Slowik is gone. As for the WR coach, this is Hilliard's first year -- and some of the receivers are running better routes than in previous years, and doing a better job of blocking; I think the WR coach will be here for at least a second year.

I don't think bringing in an entirely new structure in 2013 would be that helpful. Firing a fairly well-known NFL-established coach in the middle of his rebuild, isn't going to help recruiting a top-notch coach (or promising new coach) into risking their reputation and coming to work for Dan Snyder. And if someone did, he'd probably want to do things his way -- possibly blowing up the team again, in spite of being in a cap-strapped year with no first round picks for the next couple of years.

Frankly, the Skins should stay the course, and perhaps make changes to defensive coaching as well as changes to defensive personnel as well. Also much of the focus needs to be aimed at upgrading the scouting and talent acquisition, especially since Allen is not a talent scout type of GM. This would also involve overhauls of the medical staff, training staff, strength and conditioning staff, etc. Snyder needs to invest into replicating the type of scouting & talent-acquisition organizations that the Steelers and Packers have developed.

18

Fred Davis TE UFA Washington

Lorenzo Alexander LB UFA Washington

Chris Baker DT UFA Washington

Brandon Banks WR RFA Washington

Jordan Black T UFA Washington

Chris Cooley TE UFA Washington

Kedric Golston DE UFA Washington

Cedric Griffin CB UFA Washington

Rex Grossman QB UFA Washington

Rob Jackson LB UFA Washington

Kory Lichtensteiger G UFA Washington

Logan Paulsen TE RFA Washington

Tyler Polumbus T UFA Washington

Aldrick Robinson WR RFA Washington

Sav Rocca P UFA Washington

Madieu Williams S UFA Washington

Chris Wilson LB UFA Washington

Darrel Young RB RFA Washington

Granted some we would love to see go but you still have to fill the spot. RFAs require tenders etc.

[MartinC]

What if he doesn't want a extension....

Then you move on and maybe Mike gets more hands on with the offense. I'd be surprised though if Kyle did not want to see this through - he has a chance to work with a QB who could be very very special in RGIII. Are you hearing whispers Kyle might want to move on?

[MartinC]

18

Fred Davis TE UFA Washington

Lorenzo Alexander LB UFA Washington

Chris Baker DT UFA Washington

Brandon Banks WR RFA Washington

Jordan Black T UFA Washington

Chris Cooley TE UFA Washington

Kedric Golston DE UFA Washington

Cedric Griffin CB UFA Washington

Rex Grossman QB UFA Washington

Rob Jackson LB UFA Washington

Kory Lichtensteiger G UFA Washington

Logan Paulsen TE RFA Washington

Tyler Polumbus T UFA Washington

Aldrick Robinson WR RFA Washington

Sav Rocca P UFA Washington

Madieu Williams S UFA Washington

Chris Wilson LB UFA Washington

Darrel Young RB RFA Washington

Granted some we would love to see go but you still have to fill the spot. RFAs require tenders etc.

The only guy on that list of free agents though who is a key starter is Fred Davis (assuming he is 100% healthy). Lich is a good guard but has had a so so year IMO and hopefully one of the guards we drafted last year is ready to step in. We do need to replace the guys who may leave but they are depth guys and there will be options out there in free agency and the draft to do that.

I'm more concerned with where we find a starting corner, starting FS, starting RT, starting DE who can apply pass rush inside. Thats 4 key starters we need to find and since we dont have a first round pick we have to be very active in free agency - its a big ask to find 4 key starters in one offseason with no first round pick. This assumes Orakpo can come back at 100% which is not a sure thing as well.

[FrFan]

We're not going to be in a good position next year with the cap hit and no draft picks. The mistakes he made in year 1 are doing us in. We didn't need to send Philly two picks. We also didn't need to gut the 4-3.

By cutting only 2 players we can compensate for the salary cap hit: DHall and Fletch (it pains me to say that), that's $11.3 millions + $7.25 millions. Then we must wait for judge Doty ruling, and if Scheftter is right we might be able to get "cap refief".

If we must do a scouting overhaul, let's do it. Hire new very good scouts (GB,NYG,NE) pay them good money and give them a bonus, such as the lower the pick turning into a starter the bigger the bonus they get. I'm just trying to find some positivism here.

We must take some risks during the upcoming draft, we don't need any more depth players we need starters. I hope we will find find the Janoris Jenkins or Vontaze Burfict of the 2013 draft, I mean risk/reward players such as Ray Ray Armstrong, Matthieu, Reid (depending on injury status).

"Armstrong is fast, big and athletic. He has tons of physical talent, but he has not translated that into a dominant on-field performance yet. If Armstrong lands with the right coaching staff, he could be a steal due to having a high ceiling. It was imperative that Armstrong stay out of trouble and productive as a senior to avoid the third day - that was as a Hurricane though. Since he wasn't able to do that, it is difficult to project him going in the top 100." Link

[Fan since a Fetus]

I posted this on another forum, but will post it here as well, I want Shanny gone:

I am not happy with Shannahan and it is not because of his player acquisitions. I am unhappy with him because of the coaches he has chosen to be in charge of the development of our young players. I feel they are not being put in position to win.

With Shannahan’s year off from football, he claimed that he not only studied players, but he also studied coaches and schemes. I was real excited about this claim. Now, I am curious as to what he studied. I would really like to hear the reasons for each hire.

I never wanted Shanahan here. I was never a fan. However, he brought a professionalism that Jim Zorn, Vinny Cerrato and the Skins lacked for years. It was easy to get excited hearing a professional talk, at least for me.

Now the following numbers and stats do not tell a complete story, they are just a portion of it, a mere snapshot of a coach’s career. There are tons of holes in this argument; however, I think there are some valid points here.

Here are the coaches in question: Chris Foerster, Bob Slowik, Jacob Burney, Jim Haslett

It is hard to find information about the kind of systems each position coach or coordinator has run. If anyone has resources regarding this matter, please share them

• Chris Foerster (Offensive Line Coach): Has he ever run a Zone Blocking Scheme? I don’t think so, but there is a good possibility I am wrong. Even if he has, his track record is poor.

Please note that sacks and rushing average do not tell a whole story about whether or not an O-line coach is good. There are other factors such as offensive talent, QB, and receivers. However, sacks and rushing avg are a part of the problem. Here is Foerster’s recent history:

Miami Dolphins Offensive Coordinator

2004

Offensive Rank – 28 (offensive ranking goes solely by points scored)

Baltimore Ravens Offensive Line Coach

2005

Offense - Sacks 42 (total allowed) Rushing – 3.6 YPA

Offensive rank: 25

2006

Offense – Sacks 17 (total allowed) Rushing – 3.4 YPA

Offensive rank: 12

2007

Offense – Sacks 39 (total allowed) Rushing – 4.0 YPA

Offensive rank: 24

San Francisco 49ers Offensive Line Coach

2008 (took over on week 8)

Offense – Sacks 55 (total allowed) Rushing – 4.0 YPA

Offensive rank – 22

2009

Offense – Sacks 40 (total allowed) Rushing – 4.3 YPA

Offensive rank - 18

So why am I picking on Foerster? Our offense is o.k. He did well at the end of last year. However, the o-line is abysmal this year outside of option and pistol plays. When we are lining up in regular NFL formations, we are getting our butts kicked. Has Forester developed anyone for the Skins? No. Trent Williams is the only on that could be argued, but he is naturally athletic and aggressive. Everyone else on this line is easily replaceable. His track record is poor. Why did Shanny hire him???

I think we should look elsewhere this offseason for an O-line coach.

• Bob Slowik (Linebackers Coach): Really his name is all I should have to say. Just speaking his name should run chills down your spine. This is the guy that is in charge of getting young talent such as Kerrigan up to speed. Prior to the Skins, has this guy ever coached a 3-4 system? I don’t think so. In the 3-4 the linebackers are very valuable. So why leave them to be coached by a slug? We miss Lou Spanos more than people realize. This guy is currently killing one of our most valuable positions. He is a good friend of Shannahan’s. What scares me is that he is likely to stay on the roster no matter what. He may even move up to defensive coordinator one day. It would be a travesty.

Chicago Bears Defensive Coordinator

1993

Defensive rank: 3rd (defensive ranking goes solely on points scored) This is his best year.

1994

Defensive rank: 10th

1995

Defensive rank: 22nd

1996

Defensive rank: 12th

1997

Defensive rank: 29th

1998

Defensive rank: 23rd

Cleveland Browns Defensive Coordinator

1999

Defensive rank: 29th

********Not sure what he did between 1999-2004*********

Green Bay Packers Defensive Coordinator

2004

Defensive rank: 23rd

Denver Broncos

2005-2006/2007 (Defensive Backs Coach)

Keep in mind here, he coached a veteran Champ Bailey and John Lynch, both are Pro-Bowlers

2005

Defensive Passing Rank: 29th (based on Yards Per Game) Interceptions: 6th (based on ranking)

2006

Defensive Passing Rank: 21st Interceptions: 13th

2007 (DB Coach/ Defensive Coordinator)

Defensive Passing Rank: 21st Interceptions: 26th

Defensive Rank: 28th

2008 Defensive Coordinator

Defensive Rank: 30th

2009 (not sure where he was, out of the NFL?)

Washington Redskins Defensive Backs Coach

2010

Defensive Passing Rank: 31st Interceptions: 22nd

2011

Defensive Passing Rank: 12th Interceptions: 22nd

• Jacob Burney (Defensive Line Coach): I would be o.k. with him if we were running a 4-3 defense. However, we are not, and I am not sure that he has ever run a predominately 3-4 defensive front.

Denver Broncos Defensive Line Coach

2002

Defensive Rank: 15th Sacks: 10th

YPA: 9th (Rushing Avg.)

2003

Defensive Rank: 9th Sacks: 14th

YPA: 9th

2004

Defensive Rank: 9th Sacks: 14th

YPA: 9th

2005

Defensive Rank: 3rd Sacks: 29th

YPA: 19th

2006

Defensive Rank: 8th Sacks: 15th

YPA: 18th

2007

Defensive Rank: 28th Sacks: 16th

YPA: 30th

2008

Defensive Rank: 30th Sacks: 26th

YPA: 31st

2009 (Not sure where he was, out of the NFL?)

2010

Defensive Rank: 21st Sacks: 26th

YPA: 25th

2011

Defensive Rank: 21st Sacks: 10th

YPA: 18th

2012

Defensive Rank: 27th Sacks: 25th

YPA: 18th

•Jim Haslett: This name should be synonymous with Bob Slowik. He sucks!!!!!! I was willing to give him a chance a couple of years ago, but the more I have learned about football, the more I realize his schemes are horrible and he does not know how to run a 4-3 much less a 3-4. He lacks the balls to run the 3-4.

I am going to save myself some time and leave Haslett’s record out of this conversation. Everyone that is a Redskins fan should know it by now. He is horrible. I wanted to give him a shot a couple of years ago, but it was a horrible decision.

In my opinion Shannahan does not know coaches like he thinks he does. I imagine Shannahan grabbed a bunch of guys that he was familiar with and not necessarily ones that were great at their jobs.

To me, Shannahan is a Super Bowl winning Norv Turner. Sounds bad, but true. He is a great offensive coordinator that is not head coaching material. He is the Rex Grossman of head coaches, he thinks he’s great, he thinks he is Brett Favre, but he does not have the arm strength to get it done.

Shannahan sucks at putting together winning staffs, something Joe Gibbs excelled at. Joe Gibbs philosophy was, ‘I hire people smarter than me.’ Shannahan’s philosophy is ‘I am the smartest, and you are all second, third, fourth, fifth, etc. It is not my fault, but yours.’

I am willing to give Shannahan until the end of this year. I need to see improvement in the second half. I believe coaches should get a full five years. However, an intelligent man will change his mind when opposing information presents itself.

If I was Allen/Snyder, I would demand an improvement following the bye and I would demand Foerster, Slowik, Burney (if continuing with the 3-4) and Haslett are released at the end of the year.

[KingGibbs]

Nice stuff Fetus. More compelling evidence towards Shanny being incompetent.

[theTruthTeller]

We must take some risks during the upcoming draft, we don't need any more depth players we need starters. I hope we will find find the Janoris Jenkins or Vontaze Burfict of the 2013 draft, I mean risk/reward players such as Ray Ray Armstrong, Matthieu, Reid (depending on injury status).

Link

You'd need some serious reward to waste a draft choice on Matthieu. You practically need to be on the FBI's most wanted list to get kicked off LSUs football team, at least for a meaningful game, and Matthieu has effectively accomplished that feat twice this year. I sure wouldn't want him in the locker room.

I appreciate the need for starters, but taking big risks can result in having no starters and no depth. The best way to get starters is to improve scouting, not take players with known attitude flaws. I was hoping we learned that with Haynesworth.