Obamacare...(new title): GOP DEATH PLAN: Don-Ryan's Express

[Tulane Skins Fan]

Definitely wasn't aware of a bill from 1993. I confess. The politics have changed since then. That doesn't mean that the R response to Hillary-care was perfect...just that it was an alternative to something that likely provided even more government control. It certainly doesn't invalidate criticisms of the ACA. It just means that both parties have evolved over the last 21 years.

 

Exactly.  The politics changed the day a democrat accepted this GOP proposal and made a bi-partisan attempt to implement it.

[twa]

Exactly.  The politics changed the day a democrat accepted this GOP proposal and made a bi-partisan attempt to implement it.

 

calling the ACA that GOP proposal leaves out a lot....it did not expand Medicaid for one

[Tulane Skins Fan]

calling the ACA that GOP proposal leaves out a lot....it did not expand Medicaid for one

 

Yes it did.  

 

All the way down in the second paragraph of the link:

 

Sec. 1003) Establishes a program under which persons with low incomes (and who are not eligible for Medicaid) will receive vouchers to buy insurance through purchasing groups.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Tulane Skins Fan

[Larry]

calling the ACA that GOP proposal leaves out a lot....it did not expand Medicaid for one

 

Yeah, that's true.  The Republicans would never go along with a President trying to expand Medicaid. 

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

The majority is wrong.

 

Did you pay any attention to the Kentucky Senate race? McConnell won in part by promising to repleal the extremely unpopular ACA while protecting the extremely popular Kentucky healthcare exchange, which only exists because of Obamacare.

 

There is a staggering amount of congnitive dissonance surrounding the ACA.

 

So then, was the majority also wrong when they Elected the President?  You don't get to pick and choose on the majority, depending on what you like or don't.  It's how we do things in this country.  Right or wrong, the will of the people is how it is supposed to work.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

Look, twa... I get that you are on "team GOP" and will say or do anything to try to support them.  But facts are facts.

 

Obamacare was proposed in 1993 as an alternative to "Hillarycare."  Then Romney actually implemented it in Massachusetts.  Then Romney begged Obama to implement it nationally.  Then Obama did.  Then your head exploded and it became socialism.

 

This is political crap.  That's all it is.  

[ABQCOWBOY]

If you look at that chart, you can see that the "good segment of Americans" is almost entirely divided by political affiliation.  The average Republican hates the ACA because the GOP and Rush Limbaugh have told them to hate it, and because it has been nicknamed after Obama.   The average Democrat likes the ACA because the Democratic Party pushed it thorough, and because it has been nicknamed after Obama.   The average Independent is skeptical (although a goodly percentage of self-described "Independents" are actually highly conservative Tea Party types who are only independent in the sense that they want the GOP to be even more conservative).

 

So yes, a survey of the opinions of the Majority of Americans on complicated, technical policy questions that have become political hot potatoes (like this one) are utterly useless, because they just reflect the preexisting affiliations of those people.  They don't say a damn thing about the merits of the issue.  

 

I like to read what heath care economists think about it, not what Joe Blow from Akron thinks about it.

 

Yet I have heard on a number of occasions, on this board, that the country is no longer right leaning.   In fact, almost beaten over the head with it.   How do you account for a majority that is only Right?  This can not be just the right who believes this.  It's not just along party lines. 

[twa]

you are full of ****, a voucher is in no way Medicaid

 

but I would like to hear why the Dems  did not support this GOP "ACA" plan back in the day 

[The Evil Genius]

 

 

but I would like to hear why the Dems  did not support this GOP "ACA" plan back in the day 

 

I thought it was because they supported the Clinton version of it and when that became impossible to ever get passed, they settled for the watered down version we have now.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

you are full of ****, a voucher is in no way Medicaid

 

but I would like to hear why the Dems  did not support this GOP "ACA" plan back in the day 

 

You're right, that's a bit different.  Something to hang your hat on I guess.  

 

But you agree that the individual mandate, employer mandate were socialism when proposed in 1993?

[Larry]

but I would like to hear why the Dems  did not support this GOP "ACA" plan back in the day 

You missed the part where the bill had 21 sponsors, including two Democrats. (Including John Kerry.)

I thought it was because they supported the Clinton version of it and when that became impossible to ever get passed, they settled for the watered down version we have now.

Pointing out there there were several years in between '93 and Obamacare. A long period in which there simply weren't any major proposals, at all.

[The Evil Genius]

Pointing out there there were several years in between '93 and Obamacare. A long period in which there simply weren't any major proposals, at all.

 

Mainly because the issue was DOA anytime any D tried to bring it up, right?

Edited November 13, 2014 by The Evil Genius

[twa]

You missed the part where the bill had 21 sponsors, including two Democrats. (Including John Kerry.)

Pointing out there there were several years in between '93 and Obamacare. A long period in which there simply weren't any major proposals, at all.

 

I didn't miss the lack of votes

 

Obamacare would have never passed w/o lies and deception.....enjoy the fruits

[RedskinWill]

" Gruber is seen noting that the lack of transparency in Obamacare is really a good thing"

"Gruber is seen saying that Obamacare was written in “a tortured way” on purpose so that the facts of what it really does could be hidden behind the reams of paper and millions of “tortured” words that made up the bill.

“This bill was written in a tortured way to make sure the CBO did not score the mandate as taxes. If CBO scored the mandate as taxes, the bill dies,” Gruber says of the process of passing the law.""

He calls you people "stupid" and the professor is correct. Good job guys keep voting for these clowns.

[ABQCOWBOY]

" Gruber is seen noting that the lack of transparency in Obamacare is really a good thing"

"Gruber is seen saying that Obamacare was written in “a tortured way” on purpose so that the facts of what it really does could be hidden behind the reams of paper and millions of “tortured” words that made up the bill.

“This bill was written in a tortured way to make sure the CBO did not score the mandate as taxes. If CBO scored the mandate as taxes, the bill dies,” Gruber says of the process of passing the law.""

He calls you people "stupid" and the professor is correct. Good job guys keep voting for these clowns.

 

 

And still, people just refuse to acknowledge the real issue here.   Government went around the process.  They bent it, broke it, lied about it and then, simply refused to acknowledge the fact that what they did was unconstitutional.    That's the real problem here.   You can't continue to run Government this way and not eventually have it crumble around you.  

[Duckus]

And still, people just refuse to acknowledge the real issue here.   Government went around the process.  They bent it, broke it, lied about it and then, simply refused to acknowledge the fact that what they did was unconstitutional.    That's the real problem here.   You can't continue to run Government this way and not eventually have it crumble around you.  

 

Good lord, you have written some dumb **** on this board but this might be the best yet.

 

In 2008 we had national elections. The #1 issued discussed in those elections was health care. Democrats across the country ran on reform and won BIG. Massive victories across the country and took the President and US Senate. After taking power they spent months moving the bills through the system. It takes a long time to move anything. There was endless coverage in the media. Endless debates. Plenty of time and attempts at negotiations

 

The GOP and Democrats could not come to an agreement. That is obvious.

 

However, the Dems had the votes and forced it through without the GOP. THAT IS POLITICS. That's pretty much how politics has worked forever. 

 

Trust me, the GOP is about to try and do the exactly same thing in just a few months when they control the Senate.

 

The idea that the Democrats passed Obamacare in the secret at the dead of night and broke the laws and constitution is ****ing dumb, dumb, dumb.

 

The GOP has just won big, and now they have the votes to do a lot. They obviously still lack the full control without the White House. They will now move bills and ideas that they believe they were elected to do just like Democrats did in 2008.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Duckus

[ABQCOWBOY]

Good lord, you have written some dumb **** on this board but this might be the best yet.

 

In 2008 we had national elections. The #1 issued discussed in those elections was health care. Democrats across the country ran on reform and won BIG. Massive victories across the country and took the President and US Senate. After taking power they spent months moving the bills through the system. It takes a long time to move anything. There was endless coverage in the media. Endless debates. Plenty of time and attempts at negotiations

 

The GOP and Democrats could not come to an agreement. That is obvious.

 

However, the Dems had the votes and forced it through without the GOP. THAT IS POLITICS. That's pretty much how politics has worked forever. 

 

Trust me, the GOP is about to try and do the exactly same thing in just a few months when they control the Senate.

 

The idea that the Democrats passed Obamacare in the secret at the dead of night and broke the laws and constitution is ****ing dumb, dumb, dumb.

 

The GOP has just won big, and now they have the votes to do a lot. They obviously still lack the full control without the White House. They will now move bills and ideas that they believe they were elected to do just like Democrats did in 2008.

 

I guess I'm in good company then.  You, so we are on the same page, are keeping company with me in that club so thank you for that.

 

That's not how it's supposed to work, regardless of party.  Election have consequences, well I guess that's right.  I hope the GOP does not do what you suggest but if they do, there is really not much the left can say about it.  This Administration and the Democratic Party are implicit in this. 

 

I hope that the GOP does it differently but if they don't, you will not find me supporting unconstitutional actions.  I will also not suggest that it's OK because the other party is going to do it as well, when they get in.  

[TMK9973]

Even add to that - in 2012 the Repubs tried to make the election about Obamacare as well - All these talking points were brought up, and ONCE AGAIN Americans voted to re-elect Obama.  

[ABQCOWBOY]

Even add to that - in 2012 the Repubs tried to make the election about Obamacare as well - All these talking points were brought up, and ONCE AGAIN Americans voted to re-elect Obama.  

 

That's true.  This past election, they've shown their will again.  I suspect that we may see this continue in 2016.   The American People are clearly showing their will on what they think of the ACA as well.  Will you support this line of thought, where the ACA is concerned? 

[twa]

Even add to that - in 2012 the Repubs tried to make the election about Obamacare as well - All these talking points were brought up, and ONCE AGAIN Americans voted to re-elect Obama.  

 

they changed their mind why?

[TMK9973]

They did?  I dont think they did at all.  I saw very few Republican candidates run on repealing Obama-care.   In fact -Many Republicans would say stuff like "It wont happen -even if we win the senate - so go ahead and vote Republican"

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/20/politics/kasich-obamacare-here-to-stay/

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/01/us/politics/repeal-of-health-law-once-central-to-gop-is-side-issue-in-campaigns.html?_r=0

 

the 2nd article is even better -Points out that in the end, only Ed Gillespie was still campaigning on removing obamacare....and he lost.  

Edited November 13, 2014 by TMK9973

[Larry]

Mainly because the issue was DOA anytime any D tried to bring it up, right?

I would say because it was clear that the Ds couldn't even bring anything to a vote. And the R's wouldn't propose anything.

The fight over Clinton's proposal made it plain that any attempt to do anything was too easily demonized.

[Wrong Direction]

Obamacare was proposed in 1993 as an alternative to "Hillarycare."  Then Romney actually implemented it in Massachusetts.  Then Romney begged Obama to implement it nationally.  Then Obama did.  Then your head exploded and it became socialism.

 

This is political crap.  That's all it is.  

 

The real fact is that politics have changed in the last 20-30 years, and they'll continue to change in the next 20-30 years. See Reagan's immigration amnesty for evidence of that. He passed a bill that provide amnesty in exchange for secure borders. We got one, but not the other, and now D's are crying xenophobia when R's don't want to be fooled twice on the same issue.

 

Since 1991, single payer Medicare has become an economic albatross. It has done so largely because the federal government (politicians, not bureaucrats) are incapable of reeling in special interests. As a result, payment rates are hugely inflated, utilization constraint is gone and patients have no skin in the game much of the time.

 

Political Science is real science insofar as it should always be evolving with better data. Medicare dates back to the 1960's, when the question was framed as "should the government help people get healthcare" and "yes" meant that the government would build a healthcare program. But evidence is changing that. "Yes" can be followed by a myriad of solutions. Both parties have evolved about what solutions they'll offer. The R's have evolved into a party that thinks you can give people access without having federal politicians making all of the decisions, and without creating massive open-ended dependence on Medicaid for able-bodied adults. That doesn't make it a dirty political game (which assuredly, some of it is on both sides). There's a real ideological difference here. The D's just haven't caught up to accepting that other solutions w/o huge direct federal oversight can accomplish similar goals.

 

You missed the part where the bill had 21 sponsors, including two Democrats. (Including John Kerry.)

Pointing out there there were several years in between '93 and Obamacare. A long period in which there simply weren't any major proposals, at all.

 

I believe (not certain) that was Bob Kerrey, conservative Democrat from Nebraska. 

[Hersh]

I guess I'm in good company then.  You, so we are on the same page, are keeping company with me in that club so thank you for that.

 

That's not how it's supposed to work, regardless of party.  Election have consequences, well I guess that's right.  I hope the GOP does not do what you suggest but if they do, there is really not much the left can say about it.  This Administration and the Democratic Party are implicit in this. 

 

I hope that the GOP does it differently but if they don't, you will not find me supporting unconstitutional actions.  I will also not suggest that it's OK because the other party is going to do it as well, when they get in.  

 

You are conveniently leaving out one important fact. The Democrats did a lot to try to get Republican support. Republicans were never going to agree to anything, ever as they have demonstrated for the last 6 years.

they changed their mind why?

 

In NC Thom Tillis went from telling primary voters that he was the one that stopped the expansion of medicaid in NC to doing a 180 a couple weeks before the election saying the time might be right now for medicaid expansion in the state. Just sayin.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

So then, was the majority also wrong when they Elected the President?  You don't get to pick and choose on the majority, depending on what you like or don't.  It's how we do things in this country.  Right or wrong, the will of the people is how it is supposed to work.

 

I'm not suggesting we overturn the election - like the Tea Partiers who want to impeach Obama.

 

I'm just saying that the people don't know what they are talking about.

 

"Keep the exchanges and the end to pre-ex denials....but kill Obamacare."