CONCACAF 2014 World Cup Qualification - Play Resumes June 4

[renaissance]

That performance reminded me of the Jamaica game. I thought Michael Bradley was the answer?

I don't know if he's "the answer", but he had a pretty bad game last night. Awful free kicks especially.

It just seemed like everyone last night was exhausted and unmotivated. Maybe it was the heat, maybe it was the coaching. I don't know. But our players ARE more talented than they gave on last night, which makes it all the more frustrating.

[Elessar78]

I respectfully disagree, Ren, even in our signature wins against Italy (Juergen's "Osaka" moment) and Mexico the play was unimpressive.

[renaissance]

I respectfully disagree, Ren, even in our signature wins against Italy (Juergen's "Osaka" moment) and Mexico the play was unimpressive.

I don't think that disagrees with my point. I think we have players with talent which they clearly display at the club level. I'm not saying they are all great, but I think as players they are better than they have shown in this campaign.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I don't think that disagrees with my point. I think we have players with talent which they clearly display at the club level. I'm not saying they are all great, but I think as players they are better than they have shown in this campaign.

And certainly collectively better than the rest of the region. No excuses can be made for such continued failings against lesser privileged soccer Nations.

Hail.

[Elessar78]

I don't think that disagrees with my point. I think we have players with talent which they clearly display at the club level. I'm not saying they are all great, but I think as players they are better than they have shown in this campaign.

Gotcha. But then the blame falls on the manager. I get the feeling the guys are absolutely confused out there about what they are supposed to be doing or how they are supposed to do it. So it's either they suck or they are thinking too much out there.

[renaissance]

Gotcha. But then the blame falls on the manager. I get the feeling the guys are absolutely confused out there about what they are supposed to be doing or how they are supposed to do it. So it's either they suck or they are thinking too much out there.

Klinnsman makes the lineups and the game plan. I have no problem placing most of the blame on him.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Klinnsman makes the lineups and the game plan. I have no problem placing most of the blame on him.

Klinsmann rode a Nations momentum back in 2006 and the Germans own World Cup. By even his admission, he was just the inspirational figure head and most all the tactics and planning behind the scenes was done by the guy that succeeded him, Low.

US soccer has many problems across the board, and it doesn't all fall on the current coaches head. But a top level coach he most certainly is not.

It's the old thing how great players don't always make great coaches. And he's being shown up for that in glorious technicolor with you guys.

Hail.

[Kilmer17]

As aweful as that was, I wanted to post the "true standings" after game 1.

Here's the deal. To qualify for the WC, a team needs to finish 3rd or better. So there is no reason to look at 1st place, it does nothing for seeding purposes or the WC draw. If a team wins every home game, and ties every road game, they will finish no worse than 3rd in any scenario. So that should always be considered "par".

After 1 game, the standings against "par" are as follows-

Honduras- Even

Jamaica- Even

Costa Rica- Even

USA -1

Mexico -2

Panama -2

The next round is US vs CR, Hond vs Mex, Jam vs Panama

If the US wins, they will remain -1.

We need to root for a tie in the Jamaica Panama game, and IMO root for Mexico to beat Honduras.

I still think Mexico qualifies with ease at the end of the day, so it is better for the US if they prevent other teams from adding points.

So the real standings would be

Mexico- Even

USA- Minus 1

Costa Rica- Minus 1

Honduras- Minus 2

Jamaica- Minus 2

Panama- Minus 2

If we can somehow earn a point at Mexico on the 26th, then we'll be at 4 points, still minus 1, but in overall good shape.

After that, root for wins at all times by US and Mexico, and ties in any other game.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

No doubt you'll qualify Kilmer.

Things aren't that bad that you guys won't qualify from that region. But this is a region you should be dominating at the very least (Mexico not withstanding) if you want to progress and take this on and not just end up scrapping for your lives and hoping to produce a few shocks in a finals tournament.

Finishing anywhere outside of competing with Mexico for clear first should be a major concern given the US's resources and caliber of player dotted around Europe compared to the opposition.

Hail.

[Kilmer17]

No doubt you'll qualify Kilmer.

Things aren't that bad that you guys won't qualify from that region. But this is a region you should be dominating at the very least (Mexico not withstanding) if you want to progress and take this on and not just end up scrapping for your lives and hoping to produce a few shocks in a finals tournament.

Finishing anywhere outside of competing with Mexico for clear first should be a major concern given the US's resources and caliber of player dotted around Europe compared to the opposition.

Hail.

I've never understood why anyone would think that we ARENT already dominating CONCACAF. We've made every gold cup final for more than a decade. Qualified for every WC since 1990 etc etc.

The fact is, playing in these 3rd world countries is difficult. They have good teams, and the home field advantage is crazy.

The top 6 teams in CONCACAF after the US and MEX arent the same as the minnows of Europe. I'd trade playing Honduras and Panama for Andorra and San Marino in a nanosecond.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I guess I'm defining 'dominant' different to you in this regard.

Hail.

[Kilmer17]

I guess I'm defining 'dominant' different to you in this regard.

Hail.

Explain? Do you think the US should beat every country in CONCACAF everytime they play them?

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Explain? Do you think the US should beat every country in CONCACAF everytime they play them?

Shy of fielding under-strength, home based teams, you should be dominating the region outside of maybe Mexico IMHO.

How many players do you have in major European leagues compared to these Countries? What resources do you have compared to them? And it's fair to say, as you alluded to, your more than a shock name on the World stage now. Your pretty well established the last two decades in major tournament play.

Obviously these Nations need to be respected. Every opposition deserves that. But you shouldn't be fearing any of them and certainly not looking to go to places hoping for a point.

Being naturally stronger than them and invariably coming out on top in Gold Cup play or qualification doesn't necessarily translate to the dominant force I believe it's not unrealistic to expect you to be in the region for all of the above and more.

Just an outsiders view from one who'd love to see you guys reach your potential.

Hail.

[Kilmer17]

The superpowers in Europe still struggle sometimes @ Lichtenstein etc. Brazil and Argentina drop games in the mountains every cycle.

That doesnt make them less dominant.

I want the US to get better as well. But losing games on the road in CONCACAF isnt an indication that they ARENT improving, or arent dominating.

FWIW, Honduras was in the last WC, and in the last Olympics, beat Spain and outplayed Brazil though eventually lost. Were those games an indication that Spain isnt dominant anymore?

Mexico tied Jamaica at home last night. And I think Mexico is a top 10 team in the world right now. These final CONCACAF teams arent the minnows of Europe.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I guess we have different expectations Kilmer man.

But rather than continuing to counter the point, I'm gona' respect your view as it's your Nation and not my own. Your the one with the vested interest here, not me.

Good luck against Costa Rica.

Hail.

[btfoom]

First, by all accounts, yesterday's game vs Honduras was a total s-show. Nothing good can be said of the game itself or the US effort. They sucked, looked lethargic,and got outplayed. OK, not happy about that.

As far as playing in CONCACAF, countries like Honduras, Costa Rica, Jamaica, and the like aren't 'minnows' on the world stage at all (These teams have been in World Cup Finals recently, even winning games in group stages). Teams like Andorra, San Marino, Lichenstein, etc are minnows (similar to countries like Aruba, St. Thomas, etc). While I don't like losing to them when the US plays them on the road, anyone who watches North American soccer knows that it is extremely difficult to play in these situations. Anyone who believes that the US should just roll over them every time has a much different understanding of the realities of soccer in this region. I certainly don't expect Germany, Italy, England, Brazil, Argentina, etc to breeze through qualifying and understand when they lose a road match (or even draw a group match) against other teams from their regions that have qualified for previous WC's.

[Elessar78]

The superpowers in Europe still struggle sometimes @ Lichtenstein etc. Brazil and Argentina drop games in the mountains every cycle.

That doesnt make them less dominant.

I want the US to get better as well. But losing games on the road in CONCACAF isnt an indication that they ARENT improving, or arent dominating.

FWIW, Honduras was in the last WC, and in the last Olympics, beat Spain and outplayed Brazil though eventually lost. Were those games an indication that Spain isnt dominant anymore?

Mexico tied Jamaica at home last night. And I think Mexico is a top 10 team in the world right now. These final CONCACAF teams arent the minnows of Europe.

You can't even compare Spain and Brazil to the US. If those two drop a result, it's because they had a bad game and bad luck. When an average team loses a game then it's indicative of their overall quality.

What the heck has a country of 8 million people figured out about this simple game that the US with all it's resources cannot? Invariably, the simplistic argument comes back to "its not in our culture" but the reality is that we have a very dedicated soccer culture of more than 8 million people.

---------- Post added February-7th-2013 at 12:24 PM ----------

We gotta stop making excuses for our boys. It was hot, the field conditions sucked, the opponents are better than people think, etc, etc, etc. They lost because they weren't very good yesterday. It wasn't the subs, they were average before and they were average after. First step in fixing the problem is admitting you have one.

When Germany didn't advance deep into a WC that was a national disaster. They revamped their training and their focus. A friend of mine who is a DFB licensed coach says that they've moved on from dribbling and footskills as their main focus and the emphasis at the youngest ages is now passing. Countries like France and Portugal who still emphasize individual dribbling skills are falling a step behind on the world stage.

We're too content qualifying and grinding out results and winning a game in the WC. It's been ten years since we last one a knockout game in the WC (against Mexico). But we don't play a game like we're worthy of being in the semis. It's ****-soccer for the most part.

[Kilmer17]

You can't even compare Spain and Brazil to the US. If those two drop a result, it's because they had a bad game and bad luck. When an average team loses a game then it's indicative of their overall quality.

What the heck has a country of 8 million people figured out about this simple game that the US with all it's resources cannot? Invariably, the simplistic argument comes back to "its not in our culture" but the reality is that we have a very dedicated soccer culture of more than 8 million people.

That doesnt make sense. Why is a single result indicative of quality for one side, but not for another?

I'll point out again, the US IS a dominant force in CONCACAF. But like other dominant teams, they lose games on the road sometimes. And occasionally get suprised at home.

Sure Brazil is always going to be better than us. But why does that matter?

[Elessar78]

It's not the result. It's how they've looked for the 20(?) some matches JK has been at the helm. They do not play good soccer.

Kilmer, do you watch them and you gasp and smile abou how clever, sharp they look out there? Do you marvel and the ideas the exhibit?

Or do you see the too heavy/too soft or pointless first touch? Do you see the simple passes that 75% of the time end up on the wrong side of the receiver? Or the receiver us to tak an extra touch to make it playable? Do you see it when an American looks up to play a pass and he has one or no viable options because no one is running? Do you notice how it looks like they've never rehearsed a pattern in the attacking third?

Compare it with Spain/barca who JK said is our gd standard. Passes are perfectly weighted. Every touch has a purpose. When a player looks up he's got multiple options or a space he can play into. Pattern play was the staple of kilns man and voller's Germany teams- it's a shock the US has never even tried one in his whole time.

[jly0784]

even at home the united states struggles to beat inferior opponents.. they arent good, i feel like ive been hearing people say they are getting better and better, yet there are zero results to show that... after 02 we were gonna make a serious run in 2006, and what happened there??? i seriously hope this team completely falls apart and crashes out of qualifying that way they can seriously revamp the entire national team program

[abdcskins]

The fact is that Honduras and the United States are pretty much even in soccer. Nothing more to debate. Honduras outplayed us yesterday. We looked slow and out of shape. If we played them ten times in neutral sites we'd probably go 5-5 or one team would go 6-4.

I don't think there is anything to indicate that we should be better than Honduras in soccer. The only thing you could say is that we have more money, resources, and people to invest in developing soccer and the squad. So in that aspect we should have the upper hand on Honduras and other nations of the like. But I think we'd agree that soccer is more important in Honduras than in the USA. So in that aspect people grow up wanting it more.

All in all it was one game. We need to bounce back. I do agree we sure as hell should be better by now.

[Popeman38]

The fact is that Honduras and the United States are pretty much even in soccer. Nothing more to debate. Honduras outplayed us yesterday. We looked slow and out of shape. If we played them ten times in neutral sites we'd probably go 5-5 or one team would go 6-4.

I don't think there is anything to indicate that we should be better than Honduras in soccer. The only thing you could say is that we have more money, resources, and people to invest in developing soccer and the squad. So in that aspect we should have the upper hand on Honduras and other nations of the like. But I think we'd agree that soccer is more important in Honduras than in the USA. So in that aspect people grow up wanting it more.

All in all it was one game. We need to bounce back. I do agree we sure as hell should be better by now.

That's asinine. We hold a 12-4-3 record against Honduras, including our most recent meeting.

[abdcskins]

That's asinine. We hold a 12-4-3 record against Honduras, including our most recent meeting.

That may be true, but at this present moment I don't see us being that significantly better than Honduras. As was displayed yesterday. Albeit, if we played them at Sporting Park or wherever in four weeks I bet the outcome would be different.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

..... But I think we'd agree that soccer is more important in Honduras than in the USA. So in that aspect people grow up wanting it more.....

See I can't buy that at all. When you get to this level, if the opposition 'want it more' than your players, then they should never be picked to represent America again.

Hail.

[renaissance]

From their most recent roster Honduras has 11 players from their domestic league, 4 from MLS, 2 from EPL, and 1 each from top division teams in Greece, Poland, Scotland, and Serbia.

The US, on the other hand, has 7 players from MLS, 5 Bundesliga, 3 EPL, 3 Liga MX, 1 each from 1st division teams in Belgium, Italy, Netherlands, and Turkey, and 1 from the Spanish 2nd division.

We clearly don't have a lack of talent compared to Honduras, but there is a serious disconnect somewhere between our individual talent and our product on the field. Maybe it would be better if our guys weren't spread about multiple leagues across North America and Europe, many of which have completely different styles of play.