CONCACAF 2014 World Cup Qualification - Play Resumes June 4

[abdcskins]

See I can't buy that at all. When you get to this level, if the opposition 'want it more' than your players, then they should never be picked to represent America again.

Hail.

I can agree with that. All I really meant by that comment is that soccer is more embedded in Honduran culture. Kids grow up kicking ragged soccer balls in dirty alleys working on their skills. They have it much worse, to state the obvious. It is extremely important to them.

Here American kids have lush green open fields to practice with great equipment. It's more of a pastime for many. It is not as intense. At least that's my opinion.

Basketball, football, baseball....those are the sports that are accentuated here in the USA. That being said if you play soccer that should be your passion.

[Kilmer17]

The US has won multiple Gold Cups. Made every World Cup since 1990. Advanced past the group stage 3 times. Made the Quarters in 02. Won their group in 10. Lost the championship game of the Confed cup to Brazil in 09 after beating the number one team in the world in the semis. Since JK came on board we've posted stellar wins in Italy, Mexico, Slovenia, tied in Russia, pasted Scotland at home. Topped our semi final group by 3 points.

Honestly people, if you think the US sucks or is simply middle of the road, then there really isnt any actual facts, stats and records that will make you see the reality.

We arent Brazil. We will NEVER be Brazil. The problem is that most Americans cant understand why we cant be the best at everything. So much so that we turned the winter olympics into the winter X games just so we could win more medals.

It's okay that we dont win the World Cup. Holland has been one of the best teams in the world for decades, and never won it.

[jly0784]

I want what you're smokin lol.... mediocre at best, no other way around it. .. were the 2nd best team in a terrible federation, that's why we qualify

[RichmondRedskin88]

The US has won multiple Gold Cups. Made every World Cup since 1990. Advanced past the group stage 3 times. Made the Quarters in 02. Won their group in 10. Lost the championship game of the Confed cup to Brazil in 09 after beating the number one team in the world in the semis. Since JK came on board we've posted stellar wins in Italy, Mexico, Slovenia, tied in Russia, pasted Scotland at home. Topped our semi final group by 3 points.

Honestly people, if you think the US sucks or is simply middle of the road, then there really isnt any actual facts, stats and records that will make you see the reality.

We arent Brazil. We will NEVER be Brazil. The problem is that most Americans cant understand why we cant be the best at everything. So much so that we turned the winter olympics into the winter X games just so we could win more medals.

It's okay that we dont win the World Cup. Holland has been one of the best teams in the world for decades, and never won it.

This attitude annoys me. We don't have to be the best at everything. What hell do we play the sport for? What is the World Cup all about? Being the best. You talk as though we're some consistently good team that just can't win the big one. Like we're the 09 Capitals or something and just can't get the big prize. We've had one good run since we started qualifying consistently. And that barely happened. We almost went out in 2002 before the knock out round. Our showings are embarrassing considering the money, people, resources we have. Every announcer brings it up every game. Why can't the Americans put together a winning team?

This has nothing to do with Brazil. F Brazil. They are overrated as hell. We're not asking for a Top 5 team or even Top 10 honestly. We're asking for a perhaps a Top 15 which honestly is not that unreasonable considered the resources we have. You'd think we could find a good coach, develop our youth and perhaps develop some stars, and maybe just maybe put together a team that Americans could really get behind. Perhaps if our fans saw our team performing well on the international stage why would get more behind them. However unlike the soccer powers we don't have that consistency. It seemed like maybe we would during 2000s but we crapped it honestly. 2006 was a real opportunity to perhaps sway attention to American soccer and US totally blew it.

[Kilmer17]

be specific, and tell us what you guys would need to see to make you think we have risen to the level you think we should be.

Is it record? quality wins? It's frustrating as hell to have this argument because no matter how often I present evidence that we ARE a good side, it's met with vague ideas about how we should be better.

So lets get specific.

[jly0784]

How about important games and not friendlies?

[Kilmer17]

How about important games and not friendlies?

Again. Every Gold Cup final for over a decade with multiple wins. Confed Cup finals after beating Spain who had won dozens of games in a row and was ranked number 1 in the world. 2010 WC Group winner. Winning 1 and tying two. Quarterfinalist in the 2002 World Cup.

What important games are they losing?

[jly0784]

Gold cup on their home soil, first knockout game in past 2 wc..... want me to keep going?

---------- Post added February-7th-2013 at 09:48 PM ----------

United states are the greece of the Americas

[Kilmer17]

Got it. Any event that doesnt end with the US winning it all is an example of failure.

[RichmondRedskin88]

Got it. Any event that doesnt end with the US winning it all is an example of failure.

Oh cut it with that crap. The 2011 Gold Cup was embarrassing. We lost to Panama for the first time ever and barely scraped pass Jamaica at RFK. The US Mexico game was pathetic. Go up 2-0 and lose 4-2. AKA Brazil Confederations Cup. The fact is our team can't close the deal when it matters. It never could and might not ever honestly. Sure they may qualify but it will be because everyone sucked so much they fell into a spot. I predict group stage and out if we make it to the world cup.

[jobaga]

Hopefully, this loss will light a fire under this team, coaching staff and their leaders. I want them to be embarrassed. This is not a slight against anyone. They should all take pride in the shirt they put on or give to someone who will.

As far as changes, Sunil Gulati needs to go. I would like to see a more concerted effort to get better athletes. There are tons of athlete with blazing speed that are too small to play football or basketball, put a ball at their feet and teach them how to play...

[Elessar78]

If you go back and watch our friendlies in 2012 . . . US-Guatemala, dominated but there was a lot of movement off the ball. US-Scotland was the same. US-Italy, we got dominated by the Azurri but won but that's soccer. Also, it's fair to mention that a handful of Italians were getting their first cap and with a better finishing it could've easily been 3-1.

I gave some specifics of what I want in post #367, but I also want consistent higher quality of play—perfect passes, mark your man properly, take a clean first touch, put that shot on goal. You know, basic stuff that professionals should make look easy. At the top level the game is so fast and space so limited, if your passing and receiving is off even by a little bit you lose precious half seconds. A defender has closed you down already, the teammate that made a good run is now covered, etc. Against Honduras, our wide players couldn't even create a little bit of space to put clean crosses into the box. It's all basic stuff.

[Kilmer17]

Oh cut it with that crap. The 2011 Gold Cup was embarrassing. We lost to Panama for the first time ever and barely scraped pass Jamaica at RFK. The US Mexico game was pathetic. Go up 2-0 and lose 4-2. AKA Brazil Confederations Cup. The fact is our team can't close the deal when it matters. It never could and might not ever honestly. Sure they may qualify but it will be because everyone sucked so much they fell into a spot. I predict group stage and out if we make it to the world cup.

We were up 2-0 when Cherundolo went down with an injury. We had already lost Spector and were left with Jonathon Bornstein as our option to play RB. He got toasted again and again.

What about the Gold cup 4 years prior when we were down 1-0 and came back to win 2-1? Is that game irrelevant? Or down 2-0 to Slovenia in the WC last cycle? Came back to tie (win really if Edu's goal isnt called back)? That doesnt count? Beating Spain before losing to Brazil is meaningless?

You guys continue to make arguments that the US should be better, but then seem to think we should be a top 5 side in the world. I dont think that will EVER EVER happen.

Further, the constant dismissal of the talent level in CONCACAF is crazy. These are good teams at this stage. Our confederation does a great job of illiminating the minnows early. So while Euro groups and Africa groups all have patsies in them, that doesnt happen here.

---------- Post added February-8th-2013 at 10:33 AM ----------

Hopefully, this loss will light a fire under this team, coaching staff and their leaders. I want them to be embarrassed. This is not a slight against anyone. They should all take pride in the shirt they put on or give to someone who will.

As far as changes, Sunil Gulati needs to go. I would like to see a more concerted effort to get better athletes. There are tons of athlete with blazing speed that are too small to play football or basketball, put a ball at their feet and teach them how to play...

THIS is the correct and valid complaint about US soccer. We are still utilizing a pay to play youth system. But that's "merica for you. That's slowly changing with sport specific schools sprouting up (IMG here in Bradenton IE). But that process will take years and generations to completely correct. As for Sunil. I couldnt agree more. He's got to go.

[jly0784]

We were up 2-0 when Cherundolo went down with an injury. We had already lost Spector and were left with Jonathon Bornstein as our option to play RB. He got toasted again and again.

What about the Gold cup 4 years prior when we were down 1-0 and came back to win 2-1? Is that game irrelevant? Or down 2-0 to Slovenia in the WC last cycle? Came back to tie (win really if Edu's goal isnt called back)? That doesnt count? Beating Spain before losing to Brazil is meaningless?

You guys continue to make arguments that the US should be better, but then seem to think we should be a top 5 side in the world. I dont think that will EVER EVER happen.

Further, the constant dismissal of the talent level in CONCACAF is crazy. These are good teams at this stage. Our confederation does a great job of illiminating the minnows early. So while Euro groups and Africa groups all have patsies in them, that doesnt happen here.

if you think the talent level is anywhere close to the same in concacaf as it is in europe or africa you are insane.... slovenia is an awful team, hell if robert green doesnt fumble that ball through his legs we probably dont advance.... and yes, we did beat spain, probably the best win the united states have ever had, and then what happened? they crapped the bed against brazil.... you have to sit there and pick and choose the "good" performances this team has put together, yet every meaningful game theyve played since the past world cup they have looked like crap.... you can sit there and settle for mediocrity, but watching european teams play, with their first teams, not the 2nd like when we beat italy, its depressing to see how far the united states is behind the other teams... you can say they are right there with them, but havent we been saying that since 2002? hell since it was announced the MLS, which is awful when compared to spain, epl, serie a, bundesliga, we were going to produce much more homegrown talent.... yet our best players are all leaving for europe..... it is what it is... below average football and fans with unrealistic expectations and observations about the product on the field

[Elessar78]

I want to bash my head in every time someone brings up recruiting faster players. It's only a partially correct idea at best. We can't even say that even the players we have now, if they were just faster, would be better players.

[jobaga]

I want to bash my head in every time someone brings up recruiting faster players. It's only a partially correct idea at best. We can't even say that even the players we have now, if they were just faster, would be better players.

I guess this was directed towards me...

To be a good player you need to have skill, you need to be athletic, you need to understand the game. You can teach the game and to a certain extent you can teach skill...but you can't teach athleticism or speed. They can cover for other deficiencies. We need to recruit athletes and try to turn them in to soccer players. Speed is not the solution, but it definitely helps...

[Elessar78]

I guess this was directed towards me...

To be a good player you need to have skill, you need to be athletic, you need to understand the game. You can teach the game and to a certain extent you can teach skill...but you can't teach athleticism or speed. They can cover for other deficiencies. We need to recruit athletes and try to turn them in to soccer players. Speed is not the solution, but it definitely helps...

It was the latest one, but it invariably comes up repeatedly. Sure, no doubt you need a high baseline of athleticism. No question.

As I said, IF our players were really good players that just happened to be too slow/weak then yes, the "recruit faster players" argument would be the end all be all. But they're not a group of players that have skills and smarts to be top players— essentially we'd just be transplanting this lack of skills and smarts into faster, stronger bodies. Basically, we'd be most African teams.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I guess this was directed towards me...

To be a good player you need to have skill, you need to be athletic, you need to understand the game. You can teach the game and to a certain extent you can teach skill...but you can't teach athleticism or speed. They can cover for other deficiencies. We need to recruit athletes and try to turn them in to soccer players. Speed is not the solution, but it definitely helps...

I'll add to that with the way the modern game has gone and the thinking therein.

I know for a fact, from personal experience talking to them whilst they courted a friends son, both Liverpool and Everton's scouts when looking at kids look for the most athletic kids out there. At the expense of a more talented kid at that age, they'll take the fast, less talented youngster. They figure they can coach some modicum of technique into him. But the way the games gone, particularly in England, they want the fastest, most athletic guys they can get to keep pace with the frenetic pace of the modern game.

Real sad in my opinion when major clubs are thinking that way at youth level. But a sign of the way the games changed into the product we know today.

A prime example at our club man is Jordan Henderson. A young guy with a non-stop motor who'll run all day. A real fine athlete. But technically lacking at the top level. Even if he has looked better of late. Perfect example of the modern day footballer.

Hail.

[Elessar78]

I'll add to that with the way the modern game has gone and the thinking therein.

I know for a fact, from personal experience talking to them whilst they courted a friends son, both Liverpool and Everton's scouts when looking at kids look for the most athletic kids out there. At the expense of a more talented kid at that age, they'll take the fast, less talented youngster. They figure they can coach some modicum of technique into him. But the way the games gone, particularly in England, they want the fastest, most athletic guys they can get to keep pace with the frenetic pace of the modern game.

Real sad in my opinion when major clubs are thinking that way at youth level. But a sign of the way the games changed into the product we know today.

A prime example at our club man is Jordan Henderson. A young guy with a non-stop motor who'll run all day. A real fine athlete. But technically lacking at the top level. Even if he has looked better of late. Perfect example of the modern day footballer.

Hail.

But hasn't that been the complaint about English football? That favoring the athletes over the soccer players is why England is where it is? There that famous side by side photos of three players from their youth (age12). Two are muscular and one is spindly. The spindly kid is your very own Stevie g and the other two were academy wash outs.

Too much emphasis on the speed and the destroyers and not enough on the technical players?

Again out players aren't any slower or faster than the guys in CONCACAF.

[gbear]

When I watch the US versus watch the other national teams, I think the issue is less athleticism and more, or so much more, the quality of the first touch. I played for 20 years, and as I advanced after high school, the biggest differences between good and not good players wasn't what they could do with the ball. It's the time and space they need to do it. On the world stage, I will admit the players do things I would never have done because I couldn't do it consistently enough to justify the risk. MLS, they are still doing hte same as college players for the most part which is why I love the international game.

That said, the first touch is still what creates or uses up time and space. We are big enough, and we've had some speedsters. Our touch is just woefully inconsistent. I used to think we just weren't creative with the ball like the South American teams or as physical as some of the European teams, but we try to be both now. We just don't have the control to take the benefits from either style. Our fundamentals suck in comparison to other teams at the national level.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

But hasn't that been the complaint about English football? That favoring the athletes over the soccer players is why England is where it is? There that famous side by side photos of three players from their youth (age12). Two are muscular and one is spindly. The spindly kid is your very own Stevie g and the other two were academy wash outs.

Too much emphasis on the speed and the destroyers and not enough on the technical players?

Again out players aren't any slower or faster than the guys in CONCACAF.

I think my middle sentence wholeheartedly agrees with you man.

I was just adding to the way modern day soccer has sadly gone from personal experience.

Hail.

[jobaga]

What creates space? Skill or athleticism? What closes space? Skill or athleticism? In a perfect world, you can have both. Unfortunately, there aren't many kids with both playing in the US.

[jobaga]

Many of you seem very plugged in to the USMNT, Is Villarreal the future of the team?

[Elessar78]

What creates space? Skill or athleticism? What closes space? Skill or athleticism? In a perfect world, you can have both. Unfortunately, there aren't many kids with both playing in the US.

The game is all about time and space, creating and destroying time and space. Skill, movement (yours and teammates), not moving (letting defenders drift away from you), smarts, awareness go into the bag of tricks to create t&s.

Take xavi, he first creates space by thinking ahead and placing himself in gaps between defenders. By the time the ball is on its way to him, he is being closed down. And he does this little thing, all barca players do this, he checks over his shoulder (note how few us and MLS player do this), Defining how Much time he has. His first touch moves the ball away from pressure, creating half seconds of time and half yards of space. The first touch is always exquisite so he doesn't LOSE a half second.

Passes have four characteristics: height, weight, direction, and English. Xavi is ver mindful of these and his passes are delivered perfectly. Watch MLS and us players, they are careless with the quality of their passes. They are bouncing incorrectly (loss of time), passes are behind the receiver (loss of time), they tend to stop the ball instead of flowing with it. Not to mention that they aren't even in the right place or right time.

Through the course of ninety minute match, if you give away so many seconds and so many feet of space you're not playing optimally.

[jobaga]

The game is all about time and space, creating and destroying time and space. Skill, movement (yours and teammates), not moving (letting defenders drift away from you), smarts, awareness go into the bag of tricks to create t&s.

Take xavi, he first creates space by thinking ahead and placing himself in gaps between defenders. By the time the ball is on its way to him, he is being closed down. And he does this little thing, all barca players do this, he checks over his shoulder (note how few us and MLS player do this), Defining how Much time he has. His first touch moves the ball away from pressure, creating half seconds of time and half yards of space. The first touch is always exquisite so he doesn't LOSE a half second.

Passes have four characteristics: height, weight, direction, and English. Xavi is ver mindful of these and his passes are delivered perfectly. Watch MLS and us players, they are careless with the quality of their passes. They are bouncing incorrectly (loss of time), passes are behind the receiver (loss of time), they tend to stop the ball instead of flowing with it. Not to mention that they aren't even in the right place or right time.

Through the course of ninety minute match, if you give away so many seconds and so many feet of space you're not playing optimally.

I think we basically agree on this. I agree that our coaching and culture needs to improve. The fact is, lots of kids play soccer when they are young. Many move on to other sports. If we could keep more of these kids and recruit better athletes, it would benefit the sport. A deeper player pool would automatically make the sport better. You are correct when you claim that better athletes alone will not improve the state of soccer in America. But, better athletes will definitely help the situation...