Nirvana All Day.

[Sticksboi05]

As someone who lived that time period and someone who really liked REM I would disagree

All anyone needs to know is this.. late 1970s punk begat the independent label movement which begat the grunge revolution of the early 1990s. REM had nothing to do with it. They were a separate genre altogether.

People can argue the specifics, but that's the summation made as simply and accurately as possible

So what really counts as alternative rock?

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

So what really counts as alternative rock?

I'm of the opinion that there is no such thing as alt-rock. It's a radio designation like "oldies" and "classic rock." Nirvana is now "classic rock."

I mean...is there really anything in common between Nirvana, Beck, Oasis and The Mighty Mighty Bosstones? All were considered "alternative."

[zoony]

I kind of agree. REM was indie rock becoming mainstream. Nirvana was punk becoming mainstream.

The only "alternative" thing about REM' date=' imo, was their distribution. It was independent channel college rock. But their songs were always fairly poppy and mainstream.

The actual band that made Nirvana possible, I think, is Sonic Youth. That fact that this arty noise rock band with the tall kind of ugly front man was a) on a major label and was getting attention from MTV was amazing.

I disagree that it was a band (nd if you are going to credit a band, you'd have to choose between The Pixies and The Melvins). Rather, I think it was the Sub-Pop label. It became too large for MTV and major labels to ignore. Same is true of many labels... I still remember to this day how heartbroken I was to see Jawbox leave Dischord Records.

Back then, Nirvana was the band I ****ing LOATHED. They took something that was "our thing" and made it appealing to fraternity douchebags and 15 year old girls. At least that's how I viewed it back then. It wasn't until about 2004 when I came around on Nirvana.

Ironically, Kobain felt the same way I did. Hence the shotgun to the head.

.

One thing that annoys me about the Cobain mythmaking is this idea that it was impossible to find "alternative" music before Nirvana. There was a thriving indie rock scene - which is now dead. There was certainly a thriving and separate English scene - which seems mostly dead from where I am standing. If you lived near any kind of college, you had an entirely separate music scene that was somewhat easy to keep up with and that was covered in Rolling Stone and - to a much larger degree - Spin.

I just made the same point above. There was a vibrant underground scene prior to Nirvana... but it was still relatively underground. It was Nirvana that ruined all that. If you go back to the time, Nirvana's fans were all new to the scene. Those that had been in the scene resented Nirvana tremendously for what they did.

These arguments about who is better - Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Alice in Chains, and Soundgarden - are kind of silly.

Heres what I think.

AIC- they were a metal band in disguise. That's actually how Man In The Box was originally marketed.

Soundgarden- Out of all the bands listed, I think they paid their dues more than anyone. They were a SubPop institution

Nirvana- the shooting star of the bunch

Pearl Jam- probably this generation's greatest Rock Band. they've aged like wine.

I tend to like punk more than arena rock....except live.

A quote from the recent Pearl Jam PBS Documentary really got me thinking- which I tend not to do anymore because I feel like I know it all when it comes to this period in music history ... something to the effect that "the kids from Seattle had nothing to do all day, and with the constant rain they turned to music. they listened to EVERYTHING. Arena rock, punk, the Beatles, Bob Marley, the Doors, Hendrix, Minor Threat, etc. The kids that comprised Seattle circa 1989 made it the most musically-educated city on the planet."

And really- when I listen to Pearl Jam and Soundgarden and AIC it dawns on me... that statement is true.

Here's something to talk about: Is the Singles soundtrack the single most important album of the 90s?

Absolutely not. That album didn't blaze trails, it was a mirror. the revolution had already happened. Besides, didn't it have Dyslexic Heart on it? :doh1:

---------- Post added April-5th-2012 at 04:42 PM ----------

So what really counts as alternative rock?

IMO, alt-rock was a catch-all for any song played on the radio between 1987-1990 that either (a)was independent label, (b)didn't make the pop charts, or ©wasn't hair metal. After that it gets a bit harder to define.

[Enter Apotheosis]

Agree to disagree. Honestly had no idea who Staley was until you said that. Cobain had a much MUCH bigger influence on the alt rock/ music world. Ask anybody. Nirvana pretty much invented alt rock.

This post hurt to read. :doh:

IMO, alt-rock was a catch-all for any song played on the radio between 1987-1990 that either (a)was independent label, (b)didn't make the pop charts, or ©wasn't hair metal. After that it gets a bit harder to define.

At this point it's basically just an umbrella term for rock that isn't pop.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

The only "alternative" thing about REM, imo, was their distribution. It was independent channel college rock. But their songs were always fairly poppy and mainstream.

So was an awful lot of "indie rock." I mean, I am a Replacements freak; they have songs that the Monkees could have played.

I disagree that it was a band (nd if you are going to credit a band, you'd have to choose between The Pixies and The Melvins).

Fair point. I guess the Pixies were big; I just really have no memory of them. They are a huge musical blindspot for me for reasons I cannot explain. I think the Melvins are more of an "influence" than a fore-runner. My only point is if Sonic Youth could get a major label deal, then - **** - anyone could get a major label deal. Sonic Youth was freaking inpenetrable at times.

Rather, I think it was the Sub-Pop label. It became too large for MTV and major labels to ignore. Same is true of many labels... I still remember to this day how heartbroken I was to see Jawbox leave Dischord Records.

That's a great point.....There was a weird loyalty to labels back then that I NEVER understood.

Back then, Nirvana was the band I ****ing LOATHED. They took something that was "our thing" and made it appealing to fraternity douchebags and 15 year old girls. At least that's how I viewed it back then. It wasn't until about 2004 when I came around on Nirvana.

I'm more egalitarian. I was weridly disappointed that Galaxie 500 didn't lead the revolution.

I just made the same point above. There was a vibrant underground scene prior to Nirvana... but it was still relatively underground. It was Nirvana that ruined all that. If you go back to the time, Nirvana's fans were all new to the scene. Those that had been in the scene resented Nirvana tremendously for what they did.

I hated that attitude. Nirvana didn't want to become the biggest band in the world. And if they did, so what.....

I've never liked the kind of people who want to introduce you to the cool band or comic book or movie and then get pissed off when you actually like it.

AIC- they were a metal band in disguise. That's actually how Man In The Box was originally marketed.

Yep. They should have come out of LA.

Soundgarden- Out of all the bands listed, I think they paid their dues more than anyone. They were a SubPop institution.

I guess. They always kind of bored me.

Nirvana- the shooting star of the bunch

True. I also think Cobain was an absolutely incredible songwriter. That's the part that tends to get overlooked.

Pearl Jam- probably this generation's greatest Rock Band. they've aged like wine.

I agree. I also own Eddie Vedder's uekelele album. It's good, I think.

A quote from the recent Pearl Jam PBS Documentary really got me thinking- which I tend not to do anymore because I feel like I know it all when it comes to this period in music history ... something to the effect that "the kids from Seattle had nothing to do all day, and with the constant rain they turned to music. they listened to EVERYTHING. Arena rock, punk, the Beatles, Bob Marley, the Doors, Hendrix, Minor Threat, etc. The kids that comprised Seattle circa 1989 made it the most musically-educated city on the planet."

That's what made the Nirvana unplugged album so awesome. It was basically Nirvana as the world's coolest cover band. The setlist is like a mixtape Kurt made for Courtney Love.

Absolutely not. That album didn't blaze trails, it was a mirror. the revolution had already happened. Besides, didn't it have Dyslexic Heart on it? :doh1:

I love Dyslexic Heart. Westerberg could urinate into a microphone and I would like it.

[zoony]

Okay, I'm gonna throw this out for discussion.

Somebody wanted to know who invented Alternative Music. I submit:

IMO, this is as close as you can get to the grandparents of it all. At least as far as bands that had any kind of mainstream to them whatsoever. I mean, this was 1983!! This album still blows me away.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

At this point it's basically just an umbrella term for rock that isn't pop.

I think it's just any rock music between '90 and '99ish that isn't hair metal.

I mean, Alanis Morrissette was in the "alt" section in '95......

[zoony]

I hated that attitude. Nirvana didn't want to become the biggest band in the world. And if they did' date=' so what.....

I've never liked the kind of people who want to introduce you to the cool band or comic book or movie and then get pissed off when you actually like it.

[/quote']

It's all incredibly stupid and juvenille. But, I look back on that period in my life, and I was stupid and juvenille. So there you go.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Okay, I'm gonna throw this out for discussion.

Somebody wanted to know who invented Alternative Music. I submit:

http://static.rateyourmusic.com/album_images/d5f84540c12a73cd0b9dc618fdb196d5/923022.jpg

IMO, this is as close as you can get to the grandparents of it all. At least as far as bands that had any kind of mainstream to them whatsoever. I mean, this was 1983!! This album still blows me away.

That's a great call. And xylophones rock.

I think you could make a case for X's first album too - though it never really penetrated as deeply as the Femmes. X is labeled a "punk" band but they were kind of everything, like all the best "alternative" bands.

---------- Post added April-5th-2012 at 03:57 PM ----------

It's all incredibly stupid and juvenille. But, I look back on that period in my life, and I was stupid and juvenille. So there you go.

Well, you've changed an awful lot since......

I'm sorry. I can't go through with it.

[zoony]

That's a great call. And xylophones rock.

I think you could make a case for X's first album too - though it never really penetrated as deeply as the Femmes. X is labeled a "punk" band but they were kind of everything' date=' like all the best "alternative" bands.[/quote']

Milwaukee, WI. Whoulda thunk. Ane when you consider Rock was born in Memphis, Blues in St. Louis, and Jazz in NO, people from LA and NYC really need to STFU when they go around thinking they're at our country's cultural hubs.

Well, you've changed an awful lot since......

I'm sorry. I can't go through with it.

I've gained weight and gone gray. That much has changed.

[skins_fan1982]

I lived in Seattle for a little over 2 years from 2009-2011. They play a lot Nirvana on the radio there to the point you'd think they're still putting out music LOL.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Milwaukee, WI. Whoulda thunk.

I saw them live in '93.

Not the most dynamic performers I've ever seen. They also had the single worst opening act ever as I recall.

(PS...at what point do I argue that the one true musical genius of the 90s was Evan Dando? I saw him live in '95 with Julianna Hatfield. The only thing keep him on his feet was the mike stand).

---------- Post added April-5th-2012 at 04:13 PM ----------

Zoony should really ban himself for helping getting this thread so far off topic.

Back to Nirvana.

In Utero is the single most uncommercial, non-rap album to ever debut at #1. Discuss.

(It's certainly the only album to ever sell 5 million copies that was little more than an thinly veiled attack on the purchasers of said album. Imagine if Frampton Comes Alive featured a song called "Go **** Yourself." That's In Utero).

[Jethrodsp]

Back to Nirvana.

In Utero is the single most uncommercial' date=' non-rap album to ever debut at #1. Discuss.

(It's certainly the only album to ever sell 5 million copies that was little more than an thinly veiled attack on the purchasers of said album. Imagine if Frampton Comes Alive featured a song called "Go **** Yourself." That's In Utero).[/quote']

I will admit I contributed to that...

I liked In Utero then and like it a lot now, but after a listen or two it quickly went back in the case in favor of Bleach, which has always been my favorite Nirvana record even if I didnt hear it until after Nevermind blew up. Blame my youth, I had no idea about Nirvana when I was 8 years old.

[mojo]

I saw them live in '93.

Not the most dynamic performers I've ever seen. They also had the single worst opening act ever as I recall.

(PS...at what point do I argue that the one true musical genius of the 90s was Evan Dando? I saw him live in '95 with Julianna Hatfield. The only thing keep him on his feet was the mike stand).

---------- Post added April-5th-2012 at 04:13 PM ----------

In Utero is the single most uncommercial' date=' non-rap album to ever debut at #1. Discuss.

(It's certainly the only album to ever sell 5 million copies that was little more than an thinly veiled attack on the purchasers of said album. Imagine if Frampton Comes Alive featured a song called "Go **** Yourself." That's In Utero).[/quote']

I'll have to do some research but I remember reading that a Nirvana insider had listened to the "original" In Utero and was blown away but the record execs hated it and Cobain released what's on the album as a sort of FU to the execs. Anybody hear that or was I just high?

[zoony]

I'll have to do some research but I remember reading that a Nirvana insider had listened to the "original" In Utero and was blown away but the record execs hated it and Cobain released what's on the album as a sort of FU to the execs. Anybody hear that or was I just high?

Cobain wanted to make an album that would alienate most fans. At that point, though, he could have farted into a tape recorder and millions would have swooned. His plan backfired

Again, hence the suicide

---------- Post added April-5th-2012 at 07:48 PM ----------

And another tangent, In Utero is exactly why I despise the Beatles.

I mean, going out of your way to make an album to piss off your label and drive away fans... I mean, thats art. That's what a tortured soul might do

Churning out hit after hit to please your bosses and the masses... Well, that's British.

I mean think about it... How many records could Cobain and grohl have sold? If only they'd been more Beatle like. I.e. *******. (<----another name for a cat)

[mojo]

I dunno...Art is Art, it's hard to question the motivating forces behind it. I doubt the Beatles bosses were exactly thrilled with their album featuring the band in butcher smocks surrounded by bloody baby body parts or their song on Rubber Soul with lyrics about stalking a girlfriend until she's dead.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

The Nirvana Unplugged Concert is such a beautiful moment, that whenever I watch the last performance of that evening, I want to tear up.

Head's up that he curses at the beginning of the video

[Captain Wiggles]

R.I.P. Kurdt Kobain :mad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYQXrg4VJnc&feature=fvst

[matty dread]

Two rock Gods, Kurt & Layne, IMO. RIP.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

And another tangent, In Utero is exactly why I despise the Beatles.

You have extraordinarily specific views on music.

I would argue that from Rubber Soul to the White Album, the Beatles went out of their way to not be "commercial."

Like Cobain, it was impossible for them not to be. The other issue is that it's impossible for McCartney to not produce gorgeous melodies. It's just what he does. If he had farted into a microphone at that point, it probably would have turned out just lovely.

[Xameil]

Loved the Unplugged performance......play that CD all the time.

The performance that killed headbangers ball....

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

The performance that killed headbangers ball....

What killed Headbangers Ball was Kurt showing up in a wedding dress a few years earlier.

As Zoony alluded to, Alice in Chains WAS a metal band and everyone initially thought Nirvana was a metal band. Hell, Axl Rose thought they were a metal band for years.

This has been repeated here before, but it's a good story. Jamie Lane that before the releae of every Warrant album, they would have a meeting at Columbia. Every time they went, a giant posted of the latest Warrant album would be in the lobby. I guess it was right before Dog Eat Dog was released when Lane went to the meeting, walked in the office, and saw a giant Alice in Chains poster in the lobby. He said that pretty much marked the beginning of the end of his career.

[Xameil]

What killed Headbangers Ball was Kurt showing up in a wedding dress a few years earlier.

As Zoony alluded to' date=' Alice in Chains WAS a metal band and everyone initially thought Nirvana was a metal band. Hell, Axl Rose thought they were a metal band for years.

This has been repeated here before, but it's a good story. Jamie Lane that before the releae of every Warrant album, they would have a meeting at Columbia. Every time they went, a giant posted of the latest Warrant album would be in the lobby. I guess it was right before Dog Eat Dog was released when Lane went to the meeting, walked in the office, and saw a giant Alice in Chains poster in the lobby. He said that pretty much marked the beginning of the end of his career.[/quote']

Great anecdote, however, nirvana unplugged is what killed headbanger ball, because it was that video that ricki rocket (not the poison member), declared it was crap, and nirvana had no business being on it. I believe it was the next day, he was fired for it.

That was how I was described by Mr. Headbangers Ball himself, so yeah nirvana unplugged killed headbangers ball.

[Captain Wiggles]

^ You mean Riki Rachtman?

[abdcskins]

I received "MTV Unplugged in New York" in the mail Monday and have been playing it ever since. Such an amazingly good album. It really has gotten me back into rock. What are some similar albums to this? Doesn't have to be live, it can be a studio album.

I think I'm gonna buy Coldplay- Parachutes cuz I've heard of them and that seems to have overall favorable reviews.