TSO Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Awesome* job, Kdawg! * denotes a totally fictional, unproven and unfounded adjective that I found humorous. :pfft: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyGator Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Yep, Rex threw a lot of interceptions. I won't argue that. But Peyton threw 100 in his first 80 games. Rex hasn't even started 50. Next. I've liked McNabb since Syracuse, so I'm not going to knock him. He was a very special talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSO Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I don't know if anyone heard Shanahan, but apparently, and it's something I wish I would have noticed, we only had one touchdown that came from a pass that wasn't caught in the end zone. One. That needs to change. Like, yesterday This goes back to what is, perhaps, the biggest issue we've had here for the longest time... and, no, it's not QB (which is a huge issue, obviously). It's the fact that we've never had a real playmaker. Just a guy who could take over games by himself. We've had that in spurts with Moss in 05 and maybe Stephen Davis as well as Clinton Portis 05/end of 07... but that's it. No Adrian Peterson's. No Calvin Johnson's. Not even a Ray Rice or a Greg Jennings. That has to change. I think Helu/Royster can be those guys, but I'm not certain about it. Hankerson may be as well... but it's still up in the air. I'm just glad Shanahan sees it clearly. :yes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 He did? If so, not by very much...Completion %: McNabb: 58.3 Grossman: 57.9 Yards per attempt: McNabb: 7.2 Grossman: 6.9 TD percentage: McNabb: 3.0 Grossman: 3.5 Fumbles: McNabb: 10 Grossman: 8 QB rating: McNabb: 77.1 Grossman: 72.4 The only place where McNabb had any real advantage was in INT percentage. Cali, I'm assuming you forgot how much I loathed the McNabb move. But better is better. And I am by no means saying McNabb was good. Even if it's a minor advantage, McNabb was better in comp %, YPA, QB Rating, INT %, rushing yards. And again, I'm not saying McNabb was good, I'm saying he was better, and the numbers prove that. They both stink for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSO Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 The McNabb comparison is exactly where the "stats lie" part of your thread title comes into play the most, KDawg. Grossman was more efficient overall and was able to convert third downs at a higher rate (I think, lol). We were also able to have long drives under Grossman, something McNabb failed miserably at. Those stats just don't show the boom/bust type of offense we had under McNabb. He led virtually no long, time-consuming, drives. I just find it hard to believe McNabb was better. He was better for the big play once or twice a game, but that's it. 3 and outs were constant. I think that's why Armstrong suffered as well this season. He's a one-dimensional go-route/deep post type WR and McNabb can't play the short game. Perfect for each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
authentic Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 We're actually 7th in the league at FF, we just suck at recovering them. well yeah, ultimate that's what i mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wysknz1 Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Our RBs never scored because we'd get down on the 5 yard line and throw 3 fades last one being an INT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Cali, I'm assuming you forgot how much I loathed the McNabb move. But better is better. And I am by no means saying McNabb was good.Even if it's a minor advantage, McNabb was better in comp %, YPA, QB Rating, INT %, rushing yards. Notice how I had said "If so, not by very much" lol...a 0.4% difference in completion percentage is basically a tie. So is a 0.3 YPA differential. And rushing yards are irrelevant in terms of what's being discussed. It would be the same as saying Banks performed better at WR than Austin and Armstrong because he threw more TD passes lol... And again, I'm not saying McNabb was good, I'm saying he was better, and the numbers prove that. Again, the numbers only prove he was better at avoiding INTs, because the completion percentage and YPA were statistically a tie as the difference was neglible, and Rex beat McNabb in TD%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsoe Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I really miss ASF, he was good making stats do anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 The McNabb comparison is exactly where the "stats lie" part of your thread title comes into play the most, KDawg. Grossman was more efficient overall and was able to convert third downs at a higher rate (I think, lol). Not sure how many were 3rd downs, but Rex had a 34.7% 1st down rate, and McNabb had a 32.2% 1st down rate...so you are probably right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 Again, the numbers only prove he was better at avoiding INTs, because the completion percentage and YPA were statistically a tie as the difference was neglible, and Rex beat McNabb in TD%. By .5%, which, by your definition, is negligible. And rush yards are not, in any way, irrelevent. It's a part of QB play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSO Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Not sure how many were 3rd downs, but Rex had a 34.7% 1st down rate, and McNabb had a 32.2% 1st down rate...so you are probably right. Interesting... I just went off what I remember, honestly. I just remember so many 3 and outs with McNabb in particular. With Rex, we'd at least move the ball a bit before turning it over or missing a FG, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forever21 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 I'm not a huge Haslett fan' date=' but I think our sack numbers are slightly inflated because he had no faith in his secondary and therefore decided that blitzing like crazy was the only hope for this team. (I'm going on my gut with this because I can't find any blitz percentage stats which is driving me nuts).[/quote'] But at the same time. If our secondary had played a little better then Rak and Kerrigan may have gotten there a few more times as well regardless of blitzes or not. Either way I suppose the secondary is responsible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glongest Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Couldn't agree more..Those six blocks knocked Gano from being a top ten kicker in FG% to 27th in the NFL. As I've written over and over.. since Danny has been here the best we've ever finished in FG% is 19th, including 4 dead last finishes. This year that had the chance to be completely blown away,, but somehow we just couldn't fix the problem of the entire center of the line caving in. It's always something... but it's never Smith even though he's the common thread to ALL of our continuing special teams problems.. Strange how that works. ~Bang And yet he is the only coach that gets endorsed by Shanny in his comments. This guy is unbelievable. He reminds me of teflon Bill Clinton. Nothing sticks to the guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExoDus84 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 We didn't score 30 points this year. When was the last time a skins team didn't score at least 30 points once all season? edit: Going back to 1993, only in 2008 and 2011 did we not score 30 pts or more at least once in a season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goskinz0721 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 And yet he is the only coach that gets endorsed by Shanny in his comments. This guy is unbelievable. He reminds me of teflon Bill Clinton. Nothing sticks to the guy. Uhhh...how about Norv? The dude has a bigtime horseshoe in is rectum. Or maybe a four leaf clover. Whatever it is, I want to know what daily Lotto numbers he's betting because I want to be all over it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 By .5%, which, by your definition, is negligible. Not what I said...I didn't say 0.5% difference is neglible in ALL stats. In TD% that difference is substative because QBs really never go below 2.5% and never really go above about 6% in terms of TD percentage...so having a variance of half of a percent is more significant. However, completion percentage for example can vary by as much as 30%...so that makes a difference of 0.3% negligible. It's simple maths lol... And rush yards are not, in any way, irrelevent. It's a part of QB play It is when you're discussing which QB performed better, because it's ridiculously rare to have an offensive scheme at the pro level that requires the QB to be a good rusher. It can injure your starting QB having him run too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildbill1952 Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Some OL Stats, while we're looking at stats: Stuffed ranks - where a running back or QB is hit at or behind the line of scrimmage: Skins ranked 19th, which is better than the 28th they ranked last year, with 20% of all running plays failling in the "stuffed" category. Source http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol Stii bad, but improving. The Skins ranked 3rd in sacks against us, which is always a dangerous stat to use, as a QB or covered receivers factor into that statistic. Same for QB hits. You can always blame some on the QB and some on the receivers, but a high number of QB hits plus sacks usually is a bad indication of a bad offensive line. On the other side of the coin, however, the Skins had the same number of sacks as the Green Bay Packers. The Skins had 41 sacks and 108 QB hits, making the Skins the 3rd worst in that totals column, but only 12th in counting only sacks. The two teams that were worse have acknowledged bad offensive lines - St. Louis and Seattle. Source: http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=2&offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&role=TM&d-447263-n=1&d-447263-o=2&archive=false&d-447263-p=1&qualified=true&d-447263-s=PASSING_QBHIT For the "QB makes the OL better crowd", I'm afraid the stats are a little confusing in that some support and some negate that theory. Negating: Apparently Bradford must be a bad QB, as I have been told many times on this board that a good QB makes the OL better. Knowing he is a good QB makes me wonder about the theory. Supporting: Drew Brees and the Saints have the lowest sack + QB hits totals. What's a little strange is that the Campbell/Palmer Oakland Raiders seem to be the 6th best in this stat, meaning that Campbell/Palmer made the Skins/Cleveland line worse but made the Raiders line better somehow. I'll leave it to someone else to espouse this theory. I would say the stats do not support it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 The McNabb comparison is exactly where the "stats lie" part of your thread title comes into play the most, KDawg. Grossman was more efficient overall and was able to convert third downs at a higher rate (I think, lol). We were also able to have long drives under Grossman, something McNabb failed miserably at. Those stats just don't show the boom/bust type of offense we had under McNabb. He led virtually no long, time-consuming, drives. But he wasn't more efficient. First off, I'd argue that Rex Grossman's supporting cast was leaps and bounds better than McNabb's last season. Second, the offense scored more points with McNabb under center than Grossman. The 2011 Redskins scored 288 points. Kerrigan was responsible for 6. Gano was responsible for 118. That's 124 of our points, but in fairness, I'll break it up into two different segments. One including Gano's points scored, one without. John Beck scored 26 total points this year (1 2PC, 2 TD rushes, 2 TD passes) So 288 (total points) - 6 (Kerrigan) - 26 (Beck) = 256 points scored. With Gano's points taken away: 288 - 6 - 26 - 124 (Gano) = 132 points scored, in 2011, with Grossman on the field. In 2010, the team scored 302 points. Banks was responsible for 6. Hall was responsible for 6. Grossman was responsible for 44 (7 TD + 1 2PC). Gano was responsible for 100. 302 - 6 (Banks) - 6 (Hall) - 44 (Grossman) - 100 (Gano) = 146 points scoredm in 2010, with McNabb on the field Furthermore, the 2011 Redskins allowed 367 points on the year. The 2010 Redskins allowed 377. So Rex's cast was very slightly better defensively. Now let's look at turnover opportunities. I count a fumble as a turnover, because there's a high amount of luck within recoveries. 2011: Grossman: 20 interceptions, 8 fumbles = 28 turnover opportunities. 2010: McNabb: 15 interceptions, 10 fumbles = 25 turnover opportunities. McNabb also attempted 14 more passes than Grossman. It's marginal. I repeat, it's extremely marginal, but I stick by the point that McNabb actually performed better than Grossman by a hair. Which, regardless of whether it's just slightly better or not, it's better. I think that's why Armstrong suffered as well this season. He's a one-dimensional go-route/deep post type WR and McNabb can't play the short game. Perfect for each other. I'd say the reason he suffered has more to do with the fact that he's a one trick pony than anything else. He's not a guy that we can keep on the field on a regular basis. At best he's a #5 on most teams, if he even makes the cut. I'd say, this year, Santana Moss, Leonard Hankerson, Jabar Gaffney, David Anderson, Donte Stallworth were all better options. And rushing yards are irrelevant in terms of what's being discussed. It would be the same as saying Banks performed better at WR than Austin and Armstrong because he threw more TD passes lol... Rushing is a part of QB play in general. It also reflects yardage lost via sacks. McNabb was sacked more often than Grossman and still had almost 100 yards more rushing, which could (but not necessarily) prove he's more mobile. I believe it's obvious that McNabb was more mobile. And I believe it's obvious that Grossman actually, as scary as it is to say, had a better offensive line in front of him. That's just my opinion, though. Again, the numbers only prove he was better at avoiding INTs, because the completion percentage and YPA were statistically a tie as the difference was neglible, and Rex beat McNabb in TD%. Marginal or not, better is better. Something isn't a tie unless it's even. And again, if my argument were that McNabb was miles better, you'd have a point. But it's not. It's that McNabb outperformed Grossman. I think that stats I provided prove that. The stat that I like most from you is that 1st down rate. Grossman was definitely better in that regard. Also take into account the running games both guys had, to be fair to both arguments. The 2011 rushing game from our running backs accounted for 362 carries, 1529 yards, 4.22 yards per carry, 5 TD. (That's Helu, Hightower, Royster, Young, Choice, Torain) The 2010 rushing game from our running backs accounted for 311 carries, 1304 yards, 4.19 yards per carry, 9 TD. (That's Torain, Sellers, Portis, Young, Williams, Davis, Johnson) McNabb's running game production was much better TD wise, otherwise they were similar with Grossman's running game having a slight edge. Due to TD production, I'd go the opposite way, though, and say McNabb probably had a better running game, although it used two more bodies. I'm going to go look at football outsiders right now to look at advanced QB statistics from the two as well. Here's what I got (I went in blind, so whatever results are there, I'm still posting.) 2011: Rex Grossman: DYAR: 267 YAR: 252 DVOA: -2.4% 2010: McNabb DYAR: 354 YAR: 282 DVOA: 0.2% Even in advanced statistics, McNabb was marginally better. If anyone can find red zone break down efficiency/stats and post them, that would be appreciated. I'm genuinely curious what the playcalling looked like with McNabb in 2010 and Grossman in 2011 inside the red zone. It would provide some depth to this debate no matter who it favors. I can't find 'em By the way, thank you for giving me some football to talk about. I definitely appreciate it. Love this game ---------- Post added January-4th-2012 at 08:31 AM ---------- Some OL Stats, while we're looking at stats: Added to OP, great info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Where am I blaming the OL entirely. Of course it doesn't help that your two most talented players on offense are suspended for drugs and you used 4 running backs during the year. Can anyone name a more unstable offense in terms of personnel this year in the league? A QB is not a miracle worker despite what Madden/Fantasy Football implires. Houston Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epochalypse Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Houston Which makes sense because we have very similar offenses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Which makes sense because we have very similar offenses Injuries happen to everyone. Every message board for every team currently has a thread ****ing about their injuries and acting like it only happens to them. Hell, Pittsburgh is going to have to bench Ryan Clark this week because playing in Denver might cause him to die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted January 4, 2012 Author Share Posted January 4, 2012 Houston I'll go through and just post IR lists. I won't mention guys who spent significant time hurt... Buffalo: IR:RB Fred Jackson' date=' K Dave Rayner, K Rian Lindell, WR Donald Jones, WR Roscoe Parrish, WR Marcus Easley, WR CJ Hawthorne, WR PK Sam, T Brad Butler Chicago: RB Matt Forte, QB Jay Cutler, WR Johnny Knox, Cincy: WR Andre Caldwell, WR Jordan Shipley, WR Antonio Chatman, TE Bo Scaife, TE Ben Utecht Houston: QB Matt Schaub, QB Matt Leinart, WR Andre Davis (WR Andre Johnson missed significant time, RB Arian Foster missed time) Kansas City: RB Jamaal Charles, RB Jackie Battle, QB Matt Cassell, TE Tony Moeaki Oakland: RB Darren McFadden, QB Jason Campbell (neither were ever officially IR'ed but they were out the majority of the season), FB Lorenzo Neal Seattle: WR Mike Williams, WR Sidney Rice, T Kyle Williams, (QB Tarvaris Jackson missed time, as did T Okung) St. Louis: WR Mark Clayton, TE Michael Hoomanawanui, WR Greg Salas, WR Danny Amendola, WR Donnie Avery, QB AJ Feely, QB Sam Bradford If I went through it I'd look through and find more guys who missed significant time on other teams. There are a ton of teams with instability in terms of offensive personnel. We are not the only ones. Though our injuries certainly didn't help us in the least. ---------- Post added January-4th-2012 at 09:59 AM ---------- Hell' date=' Pittsburgh is going to have to bench Ryan Clark this week because playing in Denver might cause him to die.[/quote'] Not to mention RB Rashard Mendenhall, RB Jonathan Dwyer, RB Mewelde Moore, OT Willie Colon, WR Arnaz Battle, OG Chris Kemoeatu, C Doug Legursky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyGator Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 Did not realize the Bills had so many injuries which explains their similar season. The Rams and Seahawks lost 3 OL each for the year like the Skins at one point and those three teams finished in the top 3 in QB hits. Gee, what a shock! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSO Posted January 4, 2012 Share Posted January 4, 2012 KDawg, thanks for putting all those stats comparing Rex and McNabb.... definitely interesting. I was going off more of what I saw and felt than what I've studied as I've indicated, so to see the stats side by side makes for an interesting flow of thought in my mind. A little cognitive dissonance as well, lol. I still think Grossman was more effective and the offense ran more smoothly under him. The problem with saying that is few stats can prove such a thing. That's more for the coaches who call the plays and run practice to know. However, there are things we could look at that would give us a better indication in terms of that. For instance, how many play calls were made to attack the intermediate area of a defense and how did Grossman do with those playcalls vs. McNabb? How much time was left on the play clock at the snap of the ball with Mcnabb under center in comparison to Rex? How much more effective was Rex in terms of passes within 5 yards of the LOS as opposed to McNabb or vice versa? How about 10 yards? I think those questions, when answered, will prove Rex was the better QB for this offense. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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