Official ES 11/27 Special Teams Thread: This Is Why We Can't Have Nice Field Goals.

[Kelvin Bryant]

All you youngsters out there take note. THAT is how you write a point-by-point rant.

Hats off, Bang.

[jflow78]

How much longer do we have to suffer Gano and the 'guru' over him?

Hail.

If I had to choose, at this point, I'd rather Gano than Smith. Gano has been inconsistent, but Smith is supposed to be fixing that (AND teaching people to block).

I'm more annoyed with Smith's ***** job than Gano's right now.

---------- Post added December-1st-2011 at 04:35 PM ----------

What is it?... please,, let him HAVE him.

~Bang

Wow, I almost feel like I need to go to the corner and think about what I've done.

Nice post Bang, I'm with you.

Consistently ******* up is not a virtue.

[pimpumd]

Great post, Bang.

I was livid last week over the blocks and posted in the game day thread that Smith needs to go. I was quickly put in my place by several posters sticking up for Smith. I think the argument was, "Danny isn't the one missing blocks." While it's true that Smith isn't on the field missing blocks, as you've pointed out his special teams units have been horrible for a long time. He's the constant.

[Bang]

No coach is ever on the field when their players screw up. People who make that excuse are removing any responsibility ay coach ever has for the success or failure of his team. That logic infers Joe Gibbs is no better than Rich Kotite because his players made fewer mistakes when they were on the field.

This is moronic. Coaches run practice, practice has one purpose. Execution is on the players AFTER the coaches teach them what they're supposed to do and run it over and over and over until they know how to do it by rote. ESPECIALLY special teams. Let's face it.. from FG formation, there's only a small numbers of plays you can actually run. Drilling these things should not be all that difficult to do.

ALL backups should ALWAYS be drilling special teams. After all, as everyone does know, the depth of the team makes up the bulk of the special teams.

For them to say "our backup offensive linemen are causing blocks" is to ignore that Smith should have backups ready to play so that nobodies like Red Bumpkin don't bust their ass twice in one game. Especially in a season that started with serious OL injuries in week 4.

I feel like i need to go get on a soapbox downtown and start yelling. Danny Smith drives me

~Bang

[RemoveSnyder]

Free agent Kickers:

- Rian Lindell

- Mike Nugent

http://www.nfl.com/player/mikenugent/2506386/profile

- Steven Hauschka

http://www.nfl.com/player/stevenhauschka/2507374/profile

- Neil Rackers

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/_/id/2300/neil-rackers

- Josh Scobee

http://www.nfl.com/player/joshscobee/2506063/profile

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Taylor Mehlhaff:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Mehlhaff

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Garrett Lindholm:

http://mkemustangs.com/roster/11/Garrett%20Lindholm

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Adrian Mora

http://www.georgiasoutherneagles.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=18700&ATCLID=1248451

http://espn.go.com/college-football/player/_/id/238429/adrian-mora

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Randy Bullock:

http://espn.go.com/college-football/player/_/id/385266/randy-bullock

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[KDawg]

Let me add this: I am a football coach. If my units performed as poorly as his, I'd reluctantly know that my head was on the chopping block. And I'd know that I'd deserve to be fired. If I was kept on, I'd find a way to fix the issue. And damn I'd like for that to be what happens... But the reality is, you have to hold yourself accountable.

[paloosa]

The reason is that Danny Smith has been teaching the guys "how to block the guys on the outside first and let the inner guys come through clean" techniques. It is the same one that the offensive line coach teaches. Didn't they say they wanted consistency? You got to give them that.

I think the real reason is due to the removal of Trent Williams from that position on FG tries. They never had a problem when Williams was there and it looks like that they did that to protect him from getting hurt. Remember a few games back when he was rolled on by someone during an extra point or FG try. It was either the Dallas or Miami game I think.

But either way I am sticking with the first explanation because it shows up every week.

[KDawg]

The reason is that Danny Smith has been teaching the guys "how to block the guys on the outside first and let the inner guys come through clean" techniques.

I've never heard of this technique. Care to explain?

[Bang]

I've never heard of this technique. Care to explain?

Sounds like it should be called the "open floodgates" technique

~Bang

[RemoveSnyder]

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/26232/bbao-dave-toubs-future-with-the-bears

Mike Mulligan of the Chicago Sun-Times notes that the Bears didn't have as much success locking up another highly regarded assistant coach. Special teams coordinator Dave Toub turned down a contract extension because the Bears offered him what a source told Mulligan was a "minimal raise" that would not have put him among the top 10 highest-paid special teams coaches in the NFL.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-11-04/sports/chi-eagles-coach-toub-one-of-top-5-coaches-in-nfl-20111104_1_eagles-coach-head-coach-hester

Toub broke into the NFL on Andy Reid’s staff in Philadelphia in 2001 after working with him previously at the University of Missouri and UTEP. April said you can stack Toub’s resume against any coordinator in the NFL – offense, defense or special teams. He said Toub, who will be out of contract at the end of this season, should be considered for a head-coaching position.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Toub

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http://www.chicagobears.com/team/coach.asp?coach_id=4

---------- Post added December-4th-2011 at 06:42 AM ----------

http://www.rolltide.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/williams_bobby00.html

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Williams

[RemoveSnyder]

Well, Gano goes 4 for 4 and an XP, accounting for 13 of the 19 points.

[Jumbo]

Let's start posting on current week's matters in the thread for that purpose, and not this one.

I'd rather not close this one yet, just in case there's a previous conversation some are still wanting to continue. But pay attention to what I typed here---it's always recommended to do so.

[Never4Get21]

Sorry to spoil all ur hopes and dreams but Danny Smith has been offered a new contract extension for 2 more years

Figured I would post this here as well. Sav in the Aussie Rules league. His athleticism is crazy, especially at 2:40

And to respond to bang. You don't even comprehend what I am saying which shows your lack of knowledge on special teams. I was talking about special teams players being backups on our team that have to play, not the specialists themselves so ur arrogance there just makes you look uneducated. The players Smith is allowed to use come from the depth of our team which everyone can admit has been terrible the past 7 years. And the only bad stats that you can point out that are bad are on the player such as FG percentage and not the coach. What the coach does have control of is coverage schemes, return schemes (which have been good besides the dumb penalties that he can't control but coaches technique to prevent them in practice everyday), and protection schemes (which could use some work but not entirely his fault because new guys have had 2 b inserted due to injuries to Gholston, Williams, and Lischtenshliger), and directional kicking which Gano must execute better because to be an NFL kicker you have to be able to directional kick, and he has made good decisions on where to have Sav directional kick. And what I was saying and using Perry Riley as an example is when he has been a core special teams player and suddenly becomes a starter he is no longer available to Danny and Rocky isn't allowed to be used there either which makes it hard for him to find talent to play on teams.

[Never4Get21]

So, backup players are getting field goals blocked?

Backup players are missing more field goals than any other team in the league?

i sure hope our starting kicker gets well soon. we've been waiting for FIVE YEARS for him.

~Bang

This is the quote I was referring to in the above post. And 1 more thing you need to realize is the difference between execution and coaching but I guess it's hard to realize when you are in the stands or watching on TV when you aren't actually involved and up close to see what is actually going on.

And you wanted a quote from a player besides Banks. How about one from a guy who has a chance to go to the pro bowl as a special teams player.

"He's one of the best coaches we have period," starting outside linebacker and special teams standout Lorenzo Alexander said recently. "You can't let a guy like that get away."

Here is a link to the article. http://voices.washingtonpost.com/early-lead/2011/01/report_redskins_deny_browns_re.html

And here is some more when John Fox was trying to hire him incase that doesn't satisfy you.

“To lose Danny Smith would suck. One of the best special team coaches I have been involved with,” tweeted defensive end/special teams contributor Phillip Daniels.

“If I lose Danny smith as my special coach I'm gonna go crazy and that's a fact!!!!!” punt/kick returner Brandon Banks tweeted. “Danny smith gave me my opportunity!!!! He went to battle for me when it came to a decision!”

Backup defensive end/special teams contributor Jeremy Jarmon tweeted: “No way Danny leaves us. He's too well liked and an excellent coach.”

And here is the link to that article

http://www.tbd.com/blogs/tbd-skins/2011/01/danny-smith-to-denver-redskins-special-teams-players-hope-not-7254.html

I have also heard Shawn Springs say in person that after being with Gregg Williams, Jerry Gray, and Danny Smith and then going to New England, none of the coaches there besides Bill even compare or knew anything and Bill basically runs the whole team.

But I guess you are right and no players or coaches understand his high level of coaching and that's probably the same reason He just got offered a new 2 year contract.

Sorry to repost but I had 2 so Bang would read it because I thought editing it would bump it.

---------- Post added December-10th-2011 at 12:06 AM ----------

Again sorry to repost again but needed to show my new sig pic in this thread so maybe you will understand I know what I am talking about when it comes to special teams, I have held kicks for Ovi[color="Gold

[Conn]

You look very young.

Other than that, I'm not sure what that picture is supposed to prove about your special teams knowledge.

---------- Post added December-10th-2011 at 12:55 AM ----------

Sorry to spoil all ur hopes and dreams but Danny Smith has been offered a new contract extension for 2 more years

Figured I would post this here as well. Sav in the Aussie Rules league. His athleticism is crazy, especially at 2:40

And to respond to bang. You don't even comprehend what I am saying which shows your lack of knowledge on special teams. I was talking about special teams players being backups on our team that have to play, not the specialists themselves so ur arrogance there just makes you look uneducated. The players Smith is allowed to use come from the depth of our team which everyone can admit has been terrible the past 7 years. And the only bad stats that you can point out that are bad are on the player such as FG percentage and not the coach. What the coach does have control of is coverage schemes, return schemes (which have been good besides the dumb penalties that he can't control but coaches technique to prevent them in practice everyday), and protection schemes (which could use some work but not entirely his fault because new guys have had 2 b inserted due to injuries to Gholston, Williams, and Lischtenshliger), and directional kicking which Gano must execute better because to be an NFL kicker you have to be able to directional kick, and he has made good decisions on where to have Sav directional kick. And what I was saying and using Perry Riley as an example is when he has been a core special teams player and suddenly becomes a starter he is no longer available to Danny and Rocky isn't allowed to be used there either which makes it hard for him to find talent to play on teams.

Riley has caused at least 3-4 back-breaking penalties on ST's, so I for one am glad he's tearing it up as a starting ILB. Hopefully we never have to see him block in the back again.

[Never4Get21]

I'm 21. That pic was from a couple years ago but I do still look young now. And it proves that I work with the special teams on gameday and training camp

[Conn]

I'm 21. That pic was from a couple years ago but I do still look young now. And it proves that I work with the special teams on gameday and training camp

I understand that, and that's really cool for you. But what does that have to do with your knowledge of special teams' play?

P.S. Your sig is now WAY too big. If you want to keep your sig/posting privileges, I'd change it.

[Never4Get21]

I understand that, and that's really cool for you. But what does that have to do with your knowledge of special teams' play?

P.S. Your sig is now WAY too big. If you want to keep your sig/posting privileges, I'd change it.

You only get a job lime that 8 years ago when you were 13 when some1 high up in the organization might b ur father or something but I can't say anymore than that but trust me I know plenty and by working with them so much I know a lot about how Danny coaches and what goes on, more than the average fan

And I am a long time reader but a new poster and I messaged an admin to try to figure out how to make my sig smaller and still have those pics but thanks 4 the info

[aREDSKIN]

The DS situation has been discussed ad nausum here on ES. IMO it suffices to say that DS should have been fired years ago. Has never really brought anything but sub par team performance and has costs us many games through the years. He's just TERRIBLE.

[Bang]

Sorry to spoil all ur hopes and dreams but Danny Smith has been offered a new contract extension for 2 more years

Figured I would post this here as well. Sav in the Aussie Rules league. His athleticism is crazy, especially at 2:40

And to respond to bang. You don't even comprehend what I am saying which shows your lack of knowledge on special teams. I was talking about special teams players being backups on our team that have to play, not the specialists themselves so ur arrogance there just makes you look uneducated. The players Smith is allowed to use come from the depth of our team which everyone can admit has been terrible the past 7 years. And the only bad stats that you can point out that are bad are on the player such as FG percentage and not the coach. What the coach does have control of is coverage schemes, return schemes (which have been good besides the dumb penalties that he can't control but coaches technique to prevent them in practice everyday), and protection schemes (which could use some work but not entirely his fault because new guys have had 2 b inserted due to injuries to Gholston, Williams, and Lischtenshliger), and directional kicking which Gano must execute better because to be an NFL kicker you have to be able to directional kick, and he has made good decisions on where to have Sav directional kick. And what I was saying and using Perry Riley as an example is when he has been a core special teams player and suddenly becomes a starter he is no longer available to Danny and Rocky isn't allowed to be used there either which makes it hard for him to find talent to play on teams.

Well, you totally missed the point.

In my arrogance i would never think to consider we use BACKUP specialists. (In fact, my main gripe about this gum chomping clown is that in seven yearshe has failed to find his specialists.It doesn't take that long to find a kicker. Or a punter. Or a returner. But he's still looking. He did manage to get a great punter who could be a great punter with you or me coaching him, so if you want to claim Rocca as one of Danny's successes, go for it. Kicker? still looking. Returner? It doesn't make any difference, our return units are sloppy and commit more penalties than practically any other special teams unit in the NFL. Not even Devin Hester is going anywhere behind Danny's charges.)

We don't even HAVE a backup kicker OR a backup punter. (that are listed as kicker and punter.)

Those players that are on coverage teams and do the blocking are the BACKUPS I'm talking about.

(You know,, the guys who Danny's Defenders say are awesome on coverages, but when they screw up and commit a bad penalty or allow one of our FIVE blocked kicks, they're just backups.)

And frankly, if you had any brains on the matter, that would have been obvious. My sarcasm about our 'starting kicker' in the post you quoted was taken totally out of context.

Our kickers suck. They have sucked since Danny Smith has been here. And you clowns with your excuse about "backup players" made me write the sarcastic comment that you obviously believed hook line, and sinker. Go back and read the rest of the thread, and it'll be pretty clear to you. (maybe)

It's obvious that you haven't been following along, and figured to stop in , pull out a single comment that you had no idea what it was said about, and call me arrogant, among other things As a result, your believing i was talking about backup specialists caused me to begin laughing at you and never finished the rest of your post..

Care to pull your foot out of your mouth and try again?

If they did indeed re-sign Smith for two years, I really have to wonder what he's got by way of blackmail.

His units are terrible. They cost the Redskins football games.

~Bang

---------- Post added December-10th-2011 at 02:10 PM ----------

You only get a job lime that 8 years ago when you were 13 when some1 high up in the organization might b ur father or something but I can't say anymore than that but trust me I know plenty and by working with them so much I know a lot about how Danny coaches and what goes on, more than the average fan

And I am a long time reader but a new poster and I messaged an admin to try to figure out how to make my sig smaller and still have those pics but thanks 4 the info

I sincerely doubt it.

As I said earlier in this thread.. when I see people post quotes of players, I sort of snicker. (Ever heard a player say "Nah, he sucks. I can't believe he's still coaching here"? No, you have not. So, listening to players say the correct lines doesn't impress me. They'll say the right thing, every time, even if it's a total lie)

what I will ask, since you're so close to the situation, is this:

What is it his teams show you that makes you believe that he's as good as any of these people say he is?

His numbers certainly don't bear it out.

Our kicking game is atrocious, and in 3 of the last 6 years, we've finished DEAD LAST in field goal percentage. The other three years, we were 19th, 21st, and 27th.

we have never been in the top HALF of the league inFG% since Smith has been here.

In fact, we have missed more field goals than ANYONE over Smith's time here, and it's not even close.

We put up a thread a few months ago detailing Smith's units and their penalty problems. Since Smith has been here, the Redskins are one of the MOST penalized teams in the NFL on special teams.

Since Smith has been here, our punting game averaged about 33 yards per kick. Wow! Sav Rocca will bring that up a little bit, but do not for a second think about giving Smith any credit for something Rocca has been doing for 6 years in other cities.

Is it our alarming number of blocked kicks that makes him so awesome?

We have seven of them in less than 1 year. five this year, and two at the end of last year.

FIVE blocked kicks. in ONE season.

So please, tell us WHY these coaches and players say these things. Don't just point to their words, point to his deeds. Show me just ONE thing Smith has done since he's been here that have made our special teams even close to one of the better units in the NFL,, in just ONE category.

(I'l start you off, This year, his birthday present Sav Rocca has made our punting unit one of the best. He buries it deep and doesn't allow many returns. Just like he did up in Philly for 5 years)

Please don't point to our kickoff coverages, because that will force me to point out that we have Kicked off nearly the fewest number of times in the NFl. (To illustrate how often we don't kickoff, we've kicked off 51 times. Green Bay has kicked off 81 times. The teams who sit at the "top" of this stat with us.. Kansas City, Buffalo, Philly Indianapolis, St Louis..... there's a common thread in that they are sme of the lowest scoring teams in the league. (Fewer kickoffs = better average. We have 30 fewer than the team with the most. They've nearly LAPPED us.)

So what is it, besides some pat answers by players reading from the Script of Athete Interviews, that makes him so good? Why has no one been able to answer that question for me yet?

~Bang

[HailGreen28]

And to respond to bang. You don't even comprehend what I am saying which shows your lack of knowledge on special teams. I was talking about special teams players being backups on our team that have to play, not the specialists themselves so ur arrogance there just makes you look uneducated. The players Smith is allowed to use come from the depth of our team which everyone can admit has been terrible the past 7 years.

What you describe is what every team has to deal with. Yet their special teams are better than ours. Go figure.

And the only bad stats that you can point out that are bad are on the player such as FG percentage and not the coach.

Blocked FGs, poor PR blocking, poor KR blocking, etc........

What the coach does have control of is coverage schemes, return schemes (which have been good besides the dumb penalties that he can't control but coaches technique to prevent them in practice everyday),

LOL, so coach can't control dumb penalties, but you say he's coaching technique anyway? How about we get a coach that CAN teach control and discipline to avoid penalties?

and protection schemes (which could use some work but not entirely his fault because new guys have had 2 b inserted due to injuries to Gholston, Williams, and Lischtenshliger), and directional kicking which Gano must execute better because to be an NFL kicker you have to be able to directional kick, and he has made good decisions on where to have Sav directional kick. And what I was saying and using Perry Riley as an example is when he has been a core special teams player and suddenly becomes a starter he is no longer available to Danny and Rocky isn't allowed to be used there either which makes it hard for him to find talent to play on teams.

More excuses for what every team has to deal with. So Danny tealls Gano and Sav to directional kick, but can't coach them up?

[Bang]

I hear you HailGreen.. I have never in my life heard the excuse "He can't control what his players do" given more than I hear it for this clown.

The very fact that the defenders have to KEEP saying this should be a clue. If a coach's players keep making mistakes, they are POORLY COACHED. It is that simple.

Danny's great! Except his field goal teams are terrible, his return units are terrible, and his teams commit more penalties than nearly any other special teams in the NFL over his time., and get more kicks blocked than I have ever seen one unit have in such a short period of time in my LIFE. But that is on his players. Not him. He's not responsible for anything they do

But other than that we're just ducky!

tired of hearing the excuses.

I ask these defenders again.

What is it that makes him as good as advertised?

Please,, come up with just ONE thing we've done consistently well since he's been here.

Just ONE. Don't tell me what Lorenzo Alexander said to a reporter about his own boss, don't tell me Mike Holmgren wanted him. Tell me why they aren't full of ****, or why they're totally wrong.

As to the directional kicking, any moron knows that is essential to the punting game. But you would expect that any idiot wouold also know that when your kicker can force a touchback more than 50% of the time, you don't ever bother with a directional kickoff, or a pooch kickoff, or any of the other ridiculously stupid ideas that cud chewing clown comes up with to lose the game for us.

(Hey,, last week we directionally kicked, and for the second time in five tries this year, it landed in bounds. We stopped them at the eleven.. forced the punt, and then our illustrious Danny Smith-ites committed a HOLDING penalty on a FAIR CATCH at midfield..

How the **** do you even do that? Sloppy. It displays a lack of awareness of where the ball is, and the likely outcomes of the punt. Poor coaching. No other excuse.

Point is, the field position we gained by directional kicking, we immediately lost due to another moronic penalty on special teams.

(OH, and BTW, of those 5 directional kicks this season, 3 of them went out of bounds, resulting in the ball at the 40. Ironically, if Danny Smjith the idiot would have chosen to directionally kick it out of bounds last week in the end of the game, we'd have given them WORSE field postion then we got with that pooch thing. (they started at the 50).

Course, we could take a look and see that Gano is among the league leaders in touchbacks, and that our unit is in fact number one in covering kickoff returns.

what the hell needs to be thought about here?

Kick the ****er deep, and if they dare to come out, stop them like we're a number one ranked unit. Act like you realize we have one of the best defenses in the NFL, and give it 80 yards of grass at it's back like you're supposed to.

But no,, Danny figured it would probably be a better idea to give them a chance for a return, and ended up with the ball at the 50. I don't care if Gano kicked the ground first. Gano should have never been told to do that dumbass junk in the first place.

~Bang

[Never4Get21]

I think as can all agree that Shanny knows a little more than you and I and the 2 year contract extension he has offered Smith shows he believes in him and knows how good a coach he is and that voids your entire argument. U will c in a few days when he signs it

[Bang]

I think as can all agree that Shanny knows a little more than you and I and the 2 year contract extension he has offered Smith shows he believes in him and knows how good a coach he is and that voids your entire argument. U will c in a few days when he signs it

And i think I am tired of asking what it is that you see tha confirms this.

You and every other person who gives me this lame "Well, the coaches want him" excuse can never answer that one question.

What has he done to warrant all this love? show me numbers. Show me results. Show me anything positive. ANYTHING.

ONE THING.

I've asked for it over and over and all I hear is silence.

ONE THING THAT WE DO CONSISTENTLY WELL SINCE HE'S BEEN HERE.

How hard can it be to find one thing he does well? After all, he's such a hot commodity, his resumé should sparkle.

But no one ever answers this question.

I ask and I ask... and I get the crickets.

I do agree,, any head coach in the NFL knows volumes more than me,, but I know enough to be able to see that our special teams are terrible BY the numbers,, not just by my vieiwing prejudices.

We have terrible stats under this guy, and they reflect games that have been lost as a result.

So tell me what it is that you see that Shanny sees. That would void my argument.

But to just continue with the same old "These guys all want him" speech doesn't answer the question of WHY, nor does it void any argument anyone has. Did the people who figured McNabb was a bad move last year have a voided argument? Or was their argument finally given weight by Shanny admitting his mistake?

I'll be honest, I've tried finding every benefit of the doubt I can for Smith, I keep saying to myself that he's in demand,, he keeps surviving here regime after regime, but there is nothing to show for it. No results at all. Absolutely dismal in fact. Among the league worst in nearly everything, and that is no exaggeration. All I hear is talk. But I don't see anything else.

Don't take my word for it. Go look at every appropriate stat for special teams since he's been here. They're TERRIBLE. Not just "below average" or "sorta icky'

They're absolutely DREADFUL.

Offering this dope a two year contract extension guarantees two more years of bottom feeding special teams, making unbelievably STUPID mistakes, and losing us football games.

~Bang

[Never4Get21]

I have showed u positives but u just overlook them. it's hard to explain 2 someone that lacks basic knowledge about coaching. And you ask and ask but the proof is in the contract extension that you will see signed shortly, I don't know what you don't understand about that