NFL.COM: Absolute power corrupts: Holmgren, Shanahan failing to deliver

[Oldfan]

..Sounds like they agree with me lol :yes:...

Yeah, but that article was written before 11 different aging vets were signed on Friday.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Yeah, but that article was written before 11 different aging vets were signed on Friday.

LOL ...maybe, but my point still stands in that the 2009 roster was indeed purged (more or less) by Shanahan, so if Shanny did think he could make a playoff run last year it was NOT because he thought the 2009 roster was just fine.

[TheLongshot]

Redskins parted ways with:

Antwaan Randle El

Todd Collins

Fred Smoot

Rock Cartwright

Ladell Betts

Cornelius Griffin

Randy Thomas

Jason Campbell

With the exception of Campbell and Cartwright, these players are all out of the NFL now. Yet the Skins were relying rather heavily on all of the above players through the 2008-2009 seasons before Shanahan took over.

I wouldn't include Campbell in that group, since Shanahan only parted ways with him after he traded for McNabb and Campbell asked for a trade. But, most of those 10 players would have been gone anyways, no matter who was in charge.

What we are critical of is not necessarily who he got rid of, but who he has brought in.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I wouldn't include Campbell in that group, since Shanahan only parted ways with him after he traded for McNabb and Campbell asked for a trade. But, most of those 10 players would have been gone anyways, no matter who was in charge.

What we are critical of is not necessarily who he got rid of, but who he has brought in.

For the point I was making Campbell should be included, though.

[sportjunkie07]

I keep hearing this but I don't really buy it. I think the way parts of the roster fell short made it pretty bad but top to bottom, I don't think it was the WORST in the NFL. People want to exaggerate to make his job seem more insurmountable but it wasn't like Atlanta was replete with talent when Petrino left and Vick was gone.

it was bad from top to bottom. really the only position in which we were above average was Tight End and DE (though we had no depth there). nearly everything else was below average. on top of that, we had a ridiculous payroll and league worst amount of draft picks.

its not really a stretch, we had probably the worst franchise at the time.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

it was bad from top to bottom. really the only position in which we were above average was Tight End and DE (though we had no depth there). nearly everything else was below average. on top of that, we had a ridiculous payroll and league worst amount of draft picks.

its not really a stretch, we had probably the worst franchise at the time.

Just a quick look at what Shanahan had to work with in 2010:

At QB, Shanahan inherited: Campbell, Collins and Brennan.

He got rid of all three. Two of them are now out of the NFL.

At RB, Shanahan inherited: Portis, Betts, Cartwright, Mason, and Ganther.

He got rid of 4 out of the 5 RBs listed above. Got rid of Portis the following year. Portis, Betts, Mason and Ganther are all currently out of the NFL.

At WR, Shanahan inherited: Moss, ARE, Thomas, Kelly, and Marko Mitchell.

He got rid of 2 of the 5 listed before the 2010 season started, and got rid of Thomas in the middle of the season. Kelly was punted the following year. Three of the four WRs cut loose are out of the NFL now.

Stop and think for a moment: of the 13 players Shanahan inherited between the QB, WR and RB units, he has released 12 of them (!!)...and of the 12 players he has released from these units, a whopping NINE of them are now out of the NFL...

Along the O-Line, Shanahan inherited: Dockery, Rabach, Thomas, Heyer, Rinehart, Will Montgomery and Big Mike Williams.

He parted ways with Thomas and Rinehart, and Williams had to quit due to medical issues. Of the remaining 4 listed, Shanahan got rid of 3 of them the following year. The six offensive linemen no longer employed by Shanahan have a combined 7 starts this season. The one player Shanahan kept has 9 starts.

With the D-Line, Shanahan inherited: Daniels, Griffin, Haynesworth, Carter, Wynn, Golston, Montgomery, Alexander and Jarmon.

He ditched Griffin, Montgomery and Wynn in 2010. Of the remaining 6 D-Linemen, Shanahan cut ties with 4 of them the following year. 5 of the D-Linemen Shanahan inherited last year are now out of the league. Another was cut by his new team.

Yeah, it was a pretty bad roster lol...

[pjfootballer]

Nice list Califan. We really did have alot to purge off this roster, no matter how many people want to deny it.

[No Excuses]

Not many deny the purge. What happened after the purge is a little surprising. Why purge the roster and not go into a full rebuild? McNabb trade was stupid from the beginning, and it is so far a very defining moment of Shanahan's tenure.

[Riggo#44]

Not many deny the purge. What happened after the purge is a little surprising. Why purge the roster and not go into a full rebuild? McNabb trade was stupid from the beginning, and it is so far a very defining moment of Shanahan's tenure.

The purge was to clear salary cap space. They were replaced with aging vets on one-year deals b/c that's all that was available. They were also easily discarded with minimal repercussions, and most of them were. They've been replaced by younger, more effective players (unfortunatley most of them are now on IR).

McNabb was supposed to be the bridge from McNabb to the yet-to-be-drafted QB. However, no one thought he'd be as bad as was in both DC and Minny. So, we are where we are now. Perhaps Shanny really wanted Locker. He clearly didn't want Gabbert (and I don't blame him), and he went to his backup plan, or Kerrigan and picks were his plan all along, who knows.

I firmly believe Barkley will be our QB next year. Maybe not at the start, but by season's end, definitely.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

I generally defend Snyder, but I will say something that just kind of crystallized in my mind. Everything he does for this team, even when doing the absolute right thing, has an slight sense of shortcut to it.

There are the obvious ones...transforming a relatively competitive young team from 1999 into a Super Bowl or Bust team in 2000, hiring Spurrier to "save the franchise" from Marty's year, and hiring Zorn as the OC before even figuring out who would be our head coach for 2008. But even some of his better decisions weren't as good as they should have been. The 3 good hires that he made (Marty, Gibbs, and Shanahan) were a problem right off the bat because HE made them and he gave them total control. That seems like something you do as the owner because it would just be easier than setting the organization up with a GM who then finds a head coach he wants.

I know we have Allen and I'm thrilled about that. But I don't believe Snyder brought in Allen who eventually decided to hire Shanahan. I believe Shanahan approved of Allen being hired knowing he'd be hired later as the head coach. Assuming Shanahan doesn't stick it out past this contract and Allen is retained, the NEXT head coach that we hire will most likely be the first one hired the right way during Snyder's ownership. Of course, that's assuming Snyder looks at Allen in that situation and says "who are you hiring next?" and doesn't attempt to dictate it.

[Enter Apotheosis]

Not many deny the purge. What happened after the purge is a little surprising. Why purge the roster and not go into a full rebuild? McNabb trade was stupid from the beginning, and it is so far a very defining moment of Shanahan's tenure.

The McNabb trade made sense at the time regardless of the people desperately trying to characterize it as a "win now" move. It was about bringing in a veteran player who had played at a Pro Bowl level and made it to the big game to lead the team, help instill the winning attitude Shanahan has been looking to create, and serve as the pivot point for the change in direction taking place. With hindsight we know that McNabb was not what Shanahan expected and, to be as polite as possible, is a terrible, two-faced human being and all-around turd. Shanahan owned up to that mistake and has more or less proceeded without a QB since.

Edit: I need to post faster, Riggo pretty much covered everything I said already :doh:

[No Excuses]

The McNabb trade made sense at the time regardless of the people desperately trying to characterize it as a "win now" move. It was about bringing in a veteran player who had played at a Pro Bowl level and made it to the big game to lead the team, help instill the winning attitude Shanahan has been looking to create, and serve as the pivot point for the change in direction taking place. With hindsight we know that McNabb was not what Shanahan expected and, to be as polite as possible, is a terrible, two-faced human being and all-around turd. Shanahan owned up to that mistake and has more or less proceeded without a QB since.

Edit: I need to post faster, Riggo pretty much covered everything I said already :doh:

Was the cost worth it for McNabb to bring in a 'winning' attitude for a team that was clearly not capable of winning for at least the next two seasons (maybe three)?

As far as McNabb's passive aggressive attitude, not sure why that surprised anyone. I would assume that Shanahan should have had some idea that McNabb isn't some kind of jolly good fella.

I also can't think of another example where a struggling, rebuilding franchise ends up trading high value picks for an aging veteran (but good) quarterback. I don't count Brunell in this example because a third round pick, while still valuable, is a fair trade. A high 2nd is absurd in this situation. The perception of this trade would be much different if a certain fellow named Vinny Cerrato completed it. There was very little to gain from having McNabb on a team that was so depleted of talent, but the cost to get him was too high.

[Riggo#44]

Was the cost worth it for McNabb to bring in a 'winning' attitude for a team that was clearly not capable of winning for at least the next two seasons (maybe three)?

As far as McNabb's passive aggressive attitude, not sure why that surprised anyone. I would assume that Shanahan should have had some idea that McNabb isn't some kind of jolly good fella.

I also can't think of another example where a struggling, rebuilding franchise ends up trading high value picks for an aging veteran (but good) quarterback. I don't count Brunell in this example because a third round pick, while still valuable, is a fair trade. A high 2nd is absurd in this situation. The perception of this trade would be much different if a certain fellow named Vinny Cerrato completed it. There was very little to gain from having McNabb on a team that was so depleted of talent, but the cost to get him was too high.

That's why it was a huge mistake -- no one is denying that (except for one mouth-breather who called 106.7 to suggest we should have kept McNabb rather than Shanahan). And rather than making that mistake again -- Shanny essentially said "**** it, we'll go with Rex and Beck -- and get our OWN guy next year"

[No Excuses]

And rather than making that mistake again -- Shanny essentially said "**** it, we'll go with Rex and Beck -- and get our OWN guy next year"

That I don't have a problem with. But the move itself was a very bad one and I'm not that willing to give Shanahan a clean pass over it.

I'm also not a huge fan of Haslett and the 3-4 although it's hard to get an understanding of our defense when they are put in the same crappy situation every week (never having the chance to protect a lead or play with offensive support).

[pjfootballer]

I also think alot of people were forgetting that Shanahan's first year we had little to no draft picks (6 I think) and free agency was limited. That was the reason for bringing in the 1 year deal vets as opposed to having only 6 picks in the draft and relying on them to improve the team when we had so many holes to fill. Let's face it, 6 picks/players would not have helped. That's why this year they turned 6 picks into 12 (had 13 at one point).

[Riggo#44]

That I don't have a problem with. But the move itself was a very bad one and I'm not that willing to give Shanahan a clean pass over it.

I'm also not a huge fan of Haslett and the 3-4 although it's hard to get an understanding of our defense when they are put in the same crappy situation every week (never having the chance to protect a lead or play with offensive support).

Remains to be seen with the horrid offense we have -- but I can say, our pass rush is unlike anything we've had in quite some time...

[Dirt]

Why? Why is it so ****ing hard for people to understand?

You have to be bad before you can be good. It takes suffering, sacrifice, patience. Fathead Michael Wilbomb said today that the skins will not win anymore games this year, then go 2-14 next year, and Snyder will fire Shanny. He said Shanny's a good coach but not a good GM. I guess he's never heard of Bruce Allen.

Why? Why is it so hard to grasp? I thought Snyder was the impatient one this past decade. Apparently, it's everyone else in the media as well. I don't really care what they say, but I do kinda wish they would just shut the hell up while our team is bad. What in the world do we have to do with the Cleveland Browns? Holmgren is kinda sorta as sucessful as Shanny? This is stupid.

Both teams passed on what looks like it could be a banner class for rookie quarterbacks to instead address defense high in the 2011 draft.

What? Is this guy serious? Sorry, neither the Redskins or browns were picking 1st overall so Newton doesn't count in this logic. He's only saying that because the bengals are 6-3. Does he not know who's coming out next year? Does he not know all the holes both the Skins and Browns have? We should have taken Gabbert? DOES HE KNOW WHO KERRIGAN IS?? WHY? WHY IS IT SO ****ING HARD TO UNDERSTAND? This kind of stuff is getting so old...

Redskins fans need only think back to Joe Gibbs's comeback to see how abruptly things can end.

Yea, it ended because Joe Gibbs retired dip****. And that wasn't some sort of rebuild, they made the playoffs in his last year.

and while Shanahan staked his reputation on the QB combo of Rex Grossman and John Beck,

zzzz....Really. I mean I get it if a fan comes to this conclusion or believes this. Why is it necessary to mention those words so much? "stake his reputation." Seriously NFL.com?

As a team, the Redskins have a 68 quarterback rating, behind only the Curtis Painter-led Colts and the Blaine Gabbert-led Jaguars.

Oh Gabbert? You mean the guy you said we should have taken earlier in your article? The guy smack in the middle of the 'banner class' of quarterbacks?

I just hate the ignorance of people who write about the Redskins. Study the ****ing team please, if you're going to write about them. It bothers me, can you tell? I didn't think I could possibly hate JLC more. What a god damned moron. "derr I need something to write, let's compare the Redskins and Browns for no ****ing reason and point out how bad the offense is" Idiot.

"Failing to deliver". A 'delivery' in rebuilds such as these taking more than 1.5 years is something an NFL insider should understand. God.

---------- Post added November-16th-2011 at 08:58 PM ----------

I keep hearing this but I don't really buy it. I think the way parts of the roster fell short made it pretty bad but top to bottom, I don't think it was the WORST in the NFL. People want to exaggerate to make his job seem more insurmountable but it wasn't like Atlanta was replete with talent when Petrino left and Vick was gone.

That all depends on how much the character of the locker room really matters. It's hard to say, since I'm not in every teams locker rooms, but all signs point to a big character turnaround. Some of the guys weren't let go because they weren't talented, they were let go because they were cancer. (Al, Devin, Carlos to a lesser extent)

I also can't say I've followed every other bad teams' GMs and draft history, but I remained convinced that Vinny Cerrato is the worst GM ever with the worst trades and worst signing decisions ever, at least in the last decade. Saying 'worst roster in the NFL' can be looked at a few different ways. So, whether or not it was the worst roster, Shanny got rid of half of it, and you're going to have it rough with half the team consisting of new guys.

---------- Post added November-16th-2011 at 09:06 PM ----------

And his reaction to said roster was to go out and trade draft picks for older vets because he foresaw an immediate playoff run.

I like a lot of what he's done in year 2 and am more than willing to be patient. But your defense of him is more of an indictment. If he really was starting with the worst roster in the NFL, in a year with an extremely limited FA class and no 3rd round draft choice, and he thought it was worth sacrificing from the future to make a playoff run, then that is incompetence on a nearly biblical scale.

No, not fair to say. That's just plain putting words in his mouth. Playoff run? Sure, every team wants to make the playoffs, but I think it's more likely McNabb was to be a stopgap for 2-3 years while to team builds. So that he 'didn't have to worry about QB' so to speak. That's putting words in his mouth too, but it makes more sense. And you glamorize 'trade draft pickS for older vetS'. Yea it was technically more than one pick for McNabb, but who else are you talking about exactly? Willie Parker, Larry Johnson etc? Nah. They didn't cost anything, and it wasn't the first time Shanny had a million RBs on his roster.

---------- Post added November-16th-2011 at 09:08 PM ----------

Shanny wasted year one.

He should've gone with the good and bad of Rexy in year one. Completely gut the roster and rebuild from year one. He didn't do that. He started his rebuild with year 2; though whether he actually gets to year 5 remains to be seen.

Again, if not for McNabb, it would have been Campbell. Another reason to point out that Rex is playing by default, and Shanny never intended to 'stake his reputation' on him, whether he said so or not.

---------- Post added November-16th-2011 at 09:20 PM ----------

Not many deny the purge. What happened after the purge is a little surprising. Why purge the roster and not go into a full rebuild? McNabb trade was stupid from the beginning, and it is so far a very defining moment of Shanahan's tenure.

Well the McNabb picks were recouped via an awesome draft, and if you're arguing that it sucks we had to trade back to recoup them, then you're saying we should have drafted Blaine Gabbert, basically.

Every move in the NFL is a gamble. Nothing is guaranteed. We can't all just act like we knew McNabb was going to be horrible and only last one year. It wasn't a bad idea. It just became worst case scenario, and IMO McNabb is to blame, not Shanny. Personally, yea i would have just stuck with Jason as the team rebuilt, but come on. It's not a 'very defining moment' in his tenure here. If it is, then be fair and include the other trades that were fine, and the awesome draft.

It's easy to focus solely on that McNabb move if you've already got a problem with Shanny, which it seems many do, and I dunno why. Now, it would be defining and problematic if he tried to 'fix' the McNabb problem by trading for another QB or rushing to draft one. We should be happy he admitted he lost that gamble, and is being patient at the QB position.

[No Excuses]

Well the McNabb picks were recouped via an awesome draft, and if you're arguing that it sucks we had to trade back to recoup them, then you're saying we should have drafted Blaine Gabbert, basically.

Every move in the NFL is a gamble. Nothing is guaranteed. We can't all just act like we knew McNabb was going to be horrible and only last one year. It wasn't a bad idea. It just became worst case scenario, and IMO McNabb is to blame, not Shanny. Personally, yea i would have just stuck with Jason as the team rebuilt, but come on. It's not a 'very defining moment' in his tenure here. If it is, then be fair and include the other trades that were fine, and the awesome draft.

It's easy to focus solely on that McNabb move if you've already got a problem with Shanny, which it seems many do, and I dunno why. Now, it would be defining and problematic if he tried to 'fix' the McNabb problem by trading for another QB or rushing to draft one. We should be happy he admitted he lost that gamble, and is being patient at the QB position.

The McNabb pick was not recouped. We lost the 2010 2nd round pick.

Shanahan took a gamble that was completely unnecessary. You have a talent depleted roster, you do not go out and trade high picks for an aging veteran at any position. McNabb would have made sense for a team that was on the cusp of competing, but for this team it was something that makes no sense at any practical level.

I don't have a problem with Shanahan, but I don't share the rosy colored perception that people have of him. There seems to be this belief that everything will be fine in a season or two. I'm comfortable taking a wait and see approach, while not letting preconceived notions hinder my judgement ability. I'm not giving him a pass on bad moves (and McNabb isn't the only bad one).

[wrecker]

If Shanahan was trying for a playoff run last year' date=' he clearly did not think he had the worst roster in the NFL, correct? Either that or he can't evaluate talent.[/quote']

This hits the nail on the head, especially with QBs.

[Riggo#44]

This hits the nail on the head, especially with QBs.

I really like Dan Graziano. Probably the most level headed writer at ESPN:

Impatience seems rampant in Washington, and Shanahan has three more years after this one. Just because he didn't get a quarterback for this year doesn't mean he won't or can't figure out a way to get one for next year.

[pointyfootball]

The McNabb trade made sense at the time regardless of the people desperately trying to characterize it as a "win now" move. It was about bringing in a veteran player who had played at a Pro Bowl level and made it to the big game to lead the team, help instill the winning attitude Shanahan has been looking to create, and serve as the pivot point for the change in direction taking place. With hindsight we know that McNabb was not what Shanahan expected and, to be as polite as possible, is a terrible, two-faced human being and all-around turd. Shanahan owned up to that mistake and has more or less proceeded without a QB since.

Surely Shanahan is smart enough to know that division rivals do NOT send impact players (especially QBs) to each other? I would have thought he would have been wary of the trade and recognized why AR was trading McNabb.

Second mistake Shanahan made, IMHO, was the handling of McNabb (during last season and trading him in the offseason). He's a smart coach, he HAD to know he was punting on the 2011 season by trading McNabb and going with Rex/Beck. Why not keep him, see if you can't eke out a potential postseason spot and then go forward with your rookie in 2012? I personally think the Skins could be setting @ 5-4, with McNabb @ QB.

[Riggo#44]

Surely Shanahan is smart enough to know that division rivals do NOT send impact players (especially QBs) to each other? I would have thought he would have been wary of the trade and recognized why AR was trading McNabb.

Another reason to add to the widely agreed on list of "Why McNabb was a mistake"

Second mistake Shanahan made, IMHO, was the handling of McNabb (during last season and trading him in the offseason). He's a smart coach, he HAD to know he was punting on the 2011 season by trading McNabb and going with Rex/Beck. Why not keep him, see if you can't eke out a potential postseason spot and then go forward with your rookie in 2012? I personally think the Skins could be setting @ 5-4, with McNabb @ QB.

This is precisely the culture that Shanahan is trying to eradicate. McNabb personified "I don't have to do what the coaches say." Like EA said above: McNabb is a lying, two-faced SOB. Keeping him would only compound the problem. And considering he got benched by an equally terrible Minnesota team, I highly doubt we'd be sitting at 5-4.

[pointyfootball]

This is precisely the culture that Shanahan is trying to eradicate. McNabb personified "I don't have to do what the coaches say."

If that's why they benched/traded him, then it's understandable, I guess. A coach has to do what he has to do.

Like EA said above: McNabb is a lying, two-faced SOB. Keeping him would only compound the problem. And considering he got benched by an equally terrible Minnesota team, I highly doubt we'd be sitting at 5-4.

McNabb irritates the heck out of me at times, admittedly. However, I think the Shanahan's were the more unprofessional in that relationship, but that's just my opinion. And as far his benching in Minny, I think that has/had more to do with them wanting to see Ponder, knowing their season was over @ 1-5. Looking at the Skins season/games, it's hard for me to picture McNabb being worse than Rex/Beck were in the Philly/Carolina/Miami games, hence the reason I think they could be @ 5-4.

[Riggo#44]

If that's why they benched/traded him, then it's understandable, I guess. A coach has to do what he has to do.

I think it's most telling that no one is missing McNabb -- even with this horrible offense. His attitude was atrocious, that much is clear....

McNabb irritates the heck out of me at times, admittedly. However, I think the Shanahan's were the more unprofessional in that relationship, but that's just my opinion. And as far his benching in Minny, I think that has/had more to do with them wanting to see Ponder, knowing their season was over @ 1-5. Looking at the Skins season/games, it's hard for me to picture McNabb being worse than Rex/Beck were in the Philly/Carolina/Miami games, hence the reason I think they could be @ 5-4.

The fact that McNabb couldn't direct a more talented offense to a better record that 1-5 should tell you something as well. Now granted their defense isn't doing them any favors, but they have a much more talented offense, and McNabb still put up some fairly pedestrian numbers...

[wrecker]

I think it's most telling that no one is missing McNabb -- even with this horrible offense. His attitude was atrocious, that much is clear....

The fact that McNabb couldn't direct a more talented offense to a better record that 1-5 should tell you something as well. Now granted their defense isn't doing them any favors, but they have a much more talented offense, and McNabb still put up some fairly pedestrian numbers...

I am not a McNabb fan.... but he was on pace to break the team's single season passing record.... and Anthony Armstrong was the 3rd leading receiver for passes over 20 yards.... and Chris Cooley had 80 catches.... and we did have the 31st ranked defense... and we did lose quite a few games by 6 points or less.....just saying....

Shanahan had to have known you can't play My Way or the Highway with an established 12 year veteran shouldn't he have? He had to realize that Kyle should cater the offense to McNabbs strengths right? He had to know it was the first time McNabb was running a new offense in 12 years right? Was there any insight at all for Shanahan to bring in McNabb? On the surface it appears not. It seems more likely another Snyder play toy to me.