4 In A Woe, Part 1

[BigRedskinDaddy]

Well, the verdict is nearly in. It's far from official, and even less of a surprise to anyone who has even casually followed the Redskins this season:

We're not a good football team.

In fact, we're pretty bad.

And we're getting worse.

This pessimistic outlook goes completely against my grain, but the facts are nearly indisputable. After a 3-1 first quarter that gave rise to all kinds of now-absurd speculation, the B&G have, in order, lost to

1) A reeling Eagles squad at home 20-13. The 1-4 "Dream Team" outgained us by nearly 140 yards and held the ball almost twice as long as they righted the ship on their way out of the NFCE cellar.

2) The toddling Panthers (!?!) 33-20. Though we were only outgained by 50 yards this time, and held the ball only 11 minutes less, once again a team with only one win, led by a true rookie QB, beat us.

3) A solid but unspectacular Bills team 23-0. Yup. Blanked. Shut-out. Goose-egged. For the first time ever in Mike Shanahan's long and storied career.

4) A rising, overachieving 49'ers unit led by their highly caffeinated, super-testosterone-charged head coach, 19-11. Again at home. And it wasn't even as close as the final score indicated.

This 4 game tailspin should and probably will end soon; two of our next three games are eminently winnable, whether we do so or not. Starting in Week 13 though, we face an extremely tough 3 game stretch against, in order, the Jets, the Patriots and the Giants. In the last half of the season we play only 4 games in which we should be favored and should win if we play the way we have been. Of those four we figure to lose at least one - that's just how it is in today's ultra-parity NFL. Discounting any big upsets in the other matchups, that means we may very well finish these last 8 games with a 3-5 record. Again. Meaning another 6-10 season. Again.

Yay.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought we were re-building here? Onward and upward, that whole bit. I might not know the definition of progress word for word, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't include back to back 6-10 seasons. I know it hasn't happened yet, but it is highly probable that it will. It might even be 5-11 or worse, who knows? In fairness I realize it could also be much better than I anticipate, but I'd lay odds it won't. When the dust settles I see us exactly where we were one year ago. And that, as I said earlier, is not progress. It's being stuck in the same old same old.

So who's to blame for all this? If we're not really building or re-building anything, where does the buck stop? With such a wide range of dysfunction and disarray, it's not an easy task assigning blame in this situation. After all, there are so many targets to choose from; where does one begin? Let's start here...

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[Oldfan]

We're not seeing the same things, BRD.

The rebuild should have started in 2010. It didn't. Shanny traded picks for McNabb and made other win-now moves until it became apparent that we weren't going to win in 2010. When he shifted gears, the rebuild began, but too little, too late to call 2010 a rebuilding year.

The draft and free agency qualified as a rebuild strategy, except for a handful of over-30 FA vets as gap fillers who have produced next to nothing for us. But, that isn't a big waste because we didn't have enough young talent to fill a roster anyway.

John Beck is the Shanahan's stab at a reclamation project. My jury's still out on him.

In Shanny's shoes, I would not pull the trigger on a QB as the number one pick in the draft until he sees a Cutler clone with the skillset to fit the scheme. I've looked at video at Andrew Luck and some other QBs. I haven't seen one that reminds me of Cutler yet.

Bottom line for me: I was pissed with Shanny in 2010. I've got his back this season. I don't care what our record is. We're making progress.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

i kinda see what old fan is saying but i still think 2010 was the beginning of the rebuild. id consider that year more of a purging than anything. we dumped a good 60% of vinnys mistakes and tried to work with some diva vets that had talent (haynesworth, portis). id agree that the full blown rebuild started this year, but the skeleton for it was there last year.

ill still never agree that mcnabb was a win now move. mcnabb was a "lets not go 2-14 move and at least be competitive" move. notice how the last 4 weeks with beck we havent even been competitive. think mcnabb was a poor QB all you want, we were in most games last year, whereas with beck we are usually eliminated by 7 minutes into the 3rd quarter lol.

[BigRedskinDaddy]

We're not seeing the same things, BRD.

The rebuild should have started in 2010. It didn't. Shanny traded picks for McNabb and made other win-now moves until it became apparent that we weren't going to win in 2010. When he shifted gears, the rebuild began, but too little, too late to call 2010 a rebuilding year.

The draft and free agency qualified as a rebuild strategy, except for a handful of over-30 FA vets as gap fillers who have produced next to nothing for us. But, that isn't a big waste because we didn't have enough young talent to fill a roster anyway.

John Beck is the Shanahan's stab at a reclamation project. My jury's still out on him.

In Shanny's shoes, I would not pull the trigger on a QB as the number one pick in the draft until he sees a Cutler clone with the skillset to fit the scheme. I've looked at video at Andrew Luck and some other QBs. I haven't seen one that reminds me of Cutler yet.

Perhaps. Whether we're in Year 1 or 2, I think we should be seeing more production out of our players - at the very least we should be more competitive than we have shown in these last four games. I don't care if you put a JV HS team up against a Div I FBS power, the bottom line for me isn't the final score so much as it's how my team played. Were they hustling? Did they keep their heads up? Play until the whistle blew? Execute to the best of their ability and not make mental mistakes?

I'm seeing far less of these things in the 2011 'Skins than I had thought I would...

EDIT: And just between you and I, my friend (and whoever else in the 73,000 member registry that happens to read this lol) I might have gotten a little carried away with my rant. I may have fallen prey to a temporary case of boiling-over frustration. Happens to the best of us...and me too.

[PeterMP]

ill still never agree that mcnabb was a win now move. mcnabb was a "lets not go 2-14 move and at least be competitive" move. notice how the last 4 weeks with beck we havent even been competitive. think mcnabb was a poor QB all you want, we were in most games last year, whereas with beck we are usually eliminated by 7 minutes into the 3rd quarter lol.

But why would you do that?

If you would have been really bad last year, you could've had Newton, or traded the Newton pick for significant ammunition, and you are STILL having something akin to that year. You'd actually be well on your way to being better.

Why would you trade a 2-14 year for MORE ~6-10 years?

Not to mention the value of the picks that you gave up for McNabb in terms of rebuilding the roster.

(The ONLY way the McNabb trade made sense is if Shanahan over-estimated McNabb and the talent on this team GREATLY, or Shanahan believed he could pick up another starting QB cheaply/quickly).

[The Rook]

But why would you do that?

If you would have been really bad last year, you could've had Newton, or traded the Newton pick for significant ammunition, and you are STILL having something akin to that year. You'd actually be well on your way to being better.

Why would you trade a 2-14 year for MORE ~6-10 years?

Not to mention the value of the picks that you gave up for McNabb in terms of rebuilding the roster.

(The ONLY way the McNabb trade made sense is if Shanahan over-estimated McNabb and the talent on this team GREATLY, or Shanahan believed he could pick up another starting QB cheaply/quickly).

Unfortunately, another answer is "ego" or just being a coach. I get it - Coach just could not do 2-14. It is in his DNA - as it should be, but ...

:helmet: The Rook

[Oldfan]

...EDIT: And just between you and I, my friend (and whoever else in the 73,000 member registry that happens to read this lol) I might have gotten a little carried away with my rant. I may have fallen prey to a temporary case of boiling-over frustration. Happens to the best of us...and me too.

I didn't like the hiring of Mike Shanahan and I griped about the way he handled our roster in 2010. The roster needed to be rebuilt not just retooled as Mike had done in his last ten years in Denver. But, he surprised and delighted me this past offseason. We are actually rebuilding.

I don't hold grudges. I'm not holding 2010 against him. I'm backing Mike's rebuild with patience.

I see what the Shanahans like about John Beck. If the game slows down for him, I think he could be a Grade B starter at a bargain basement cost. In Beck's first preseason start, I saw flashes of how dominant this offense can be with a good mobile QB and a good supporting cast. I see flashes of talent from the rookies. And really... that's about as much as a fan can expect to see when his team is in a rebuilding mode.

[wildbill1952]

I didn't see how you could correct 10 years of the Snyder/Vinny led Redskins (I know, I've heard the argument before that they're not to blame - meh) in 2 years, or even 3 or 4 for that matter. There was, and is, just too much to fix. And the whole McNabb thing was a setback (the question of whether it was all Shanny's fault or Snyder's last hurrah at being the general manager is moot) robbing the team of chances at a couple of important draft choices while giving aid and comfort to a division rival.

The team has a long way to go. But you have to be impressed with how far the defense came since last year. If Shanny/Allen can get the same results from the draft and FA on the offense next year and easily you have an 8 to 10 game winner. Do it 2 years in a row and you have a contender.

[MR2Drift]

Last year we were old and bad, this year we are young and bad.........progress right?

[aussieskin]

If you hadnt noticed there is a few very big differences this year the dead wood has been removed the attitude towards recruiting has changed drastically and the players are all content within the locker room we have a punter and a kicker that are keepers i can see so many imporvements this year over the last couple its not funny this team and franchise is going forward not backwards

[GOSKN5]

Last year we were old and bad, this year we are young and bad.........progress right?

I think so.. no joke... the young guys have to get some experience and some reps... and there will be some learning curve.... i think we will continue to see guys like Hankerson and Helu improve and they will start making some plays by the end of the year...

that being said, I dont see us winning more than another 1 or 2 games.... of course a lucky bounce or two and we could win 3 or 4....

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

But why would you do that?

If you would have been really bad last year, you could've had Newton, or traded the Newton pick for significant ammunition, and you are STILL having something akin to that year. You'd actually be well on your way to being better.

Why would you trade a 2-14 year for MORE ~6-10 years?

Not to mention the value of the picks that you gave up for McNabb in terms of rebuilding the roster.

(The ONLY way the McNabb trade made sense is if Shanahan over-estimated McNabb and the talent on this team GREATLY, or Shanahan believed he could pick up another starting QB cheaply/quickly).

because no coach wants to lose or tank. the mcnabb thing to me was shanahan thought we needed a vet QB that could lead the team. he was hoping mcnabb would pan out a lot better than he did, be a mentor to our young offense, and make us competitive at the same time. im pretty sure he still knew we werent gonna win a ton of games, but he figured it was worth a few draft picks in the long run. in hindsight it didnt work at all obviously and was a mistake, but to think that shanahan thought he was bringing in mcnabb so we could go 11-5 and get to the NFC championship with last years roster is completely insane. anyone looking at that roster with half a brain knew our ceiling was maaaaybe 9-7.

[Botched]

I don't care what our record is. We're making progress.

Exactly my stance as well.

I never expected us to do anything this season. We may end the season with half as many wins as we had last year, but we'll be in a much better place as a team.

[SkinsFTW]

im pretty sure he still knew we werent gonna win a ton of games, but he figured it was worth a few draft picks in the long run. in hindsight it didnt work at all obviously and was a mistake, but to think that shanahan thought he was bringing in mcnabb so we could go 11-5 and get to the NFC championship with last years roster is completely insane. anyone looking at that roster with half a brain knew our ceiling was maaaaybe 9-7.

Trading draft picks to sell tickets FTL.

Just fix it the right way and you'll fill the seats for decades you idiots.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Trading draft picks to sell tickets FTL.

Just fix it the right way and you'll fill the seats for decades you idiots.

well considering that was dan snyders first big move with our new staff, it makes sense.

and this fanbase is so dumb it cannot handle a rebuild (which i have said forever). look how cry baby people are right now that were struggling with rookies everywhere? people just wanna see wins, theyll complain about any method that doesnt work, regardless of whether that method could work out in the future.

[BigRedskinDaddy]

I didn't like the hiring of Mike Shanahan and I griped about the way he handled our roster in 2010. The roster needed to be rebuilt not just retooled as Mike had done in his last ten years in Denver. But, he surprised and delighted me this past offseason. We are actually rebuilding.

I don't hold grudges. I'm not holding 2010 against him. I'm backing Mike's rebuild with patience.

I see what the Shanahans like about John Beck. If the game slows down for him, I think he could be a Grade B starter at a bargain basement cost. In Beck's first preseason start, I saw flashes of how dominant this offense can be with a good mobile QB and a good supporting cast. I see flashes of talent from the rookies. And really... that's about as much as a fan can expect to see when his team is in a rebuilding mode.

I hope you're right. I am familiar with Shanny's resume, and he's the best guy we could have landed at the time - probably still is - but I am not sold on his son having the know-how to run a good offense. Not one bit.

I disagree about Beck. I believed the coach's comments about his poise, his arm, yadda yadda yadda, but all I see is a smaller, slower, less gifted JC whenever he drops back. He is too indecisive, and when he does pull the trigger his balls often miss the mark entirely or reach his target with an awful wobble; rarely does he hit them in stride with a tight spiral that they can haul in and turn upfield with.

He's a stopgap, nothing more. I wonder how long he remains the starter if he continues to be this ineffective. At this point it would seriously undermine the coach's leadership to go BACK to T-Rex. Might even be the first step in his losing the locker room.

MAN, somebody needs to slap me out of this funk. I don't know why I'm so down on this team right now, as I said in my OP. I suspect it might be because for the first time since Gibbs 2.0 I allowed myself to get truly excited about our chances with Shanny's hiring. I know it takes time to reverse a long trend, and I need to be patient...but it's much easier said than done.

[Oldfan]

BRD ~ MAN, somebody needs to slap me out of this funk.

Let me try a gentle shove before I resort to violence.

What were Mike Shanahan’s weaknesses in Denver? He allowed his defense to deteriorate year-by-year; and he had a poor record as a GM. What was his strength? The man could run an offense. No one, absolutely no one, ever questioned that.

And what are you worried about? You are worried that he won’t get the offense going.

It isn’t likely that Shanny got smarter as a GM, but lost his touch with an offense. Here’s the problem: We don’t have enough talent yet on offense, and when that unit is hit by injuries, it makes matters worse.

When we get a good O-line and receiving corps in place, John Beck or whoever we have in the QB slot will look much better and Kyle Shanahan will look a lot smarter.

[Skinsinparadise]

Perhaps. Whether we're in Year 1 or 2, I think we should be seeing more production out of our players - at the very least we should be more competitive than we have shown in these last four games.

Many talk about Tampa having one of the quickest rebuilds in the NFL, took them 2 years. In year #1 after their purge and going young they were 3-13. A lot of those players who played that first season were better in year #2, nothing beats giving young guys experience. A guy like Paul and Hankerson should be better in game #15 then they are now. The Lions were a bad team but got streaky towards the end of last season. Lets see if it happens here. But yeah year #1, where they traded for McNabb, and were missing draft picks, seemed to be mostly a win now year. I like the direction they are going in this year. Our defense is fairly young. Our skilled positions on offense have mostly young guys. We need another big draft. Right now we got 9 picks next year, when was the last time we had our full slate of picks, plus additional ones, like 15 years ago? It's part of the reason why we are in this hole. IMO we can't be impatient and demand instant results or else -- that if anything is what has killed this organization.

Edit: and if you recall people weren't kind to Tampa when they went thru that 3-13 season, people talked about R. Moore needing to be fired, that season was seen by most of the media as a disaster. IMO you need a coach and FO tough enough to ignore the naysayers

[KCClybun]

My response to this is pretty well summed up in this entire thread.

Reality of a rebuild.

I will say that anyone who thinks it only takes two years to rebuild is funny and very, very naive about how friggin' bad this team was before Mike got here.

[Skinsinparadise]

It isn’t likely that Shanny got smarter as a GM, but lost his touch with an offense. Here’s the problem: We don’t have enough talent yet on offense, and when that unit is hit by injuries, it makes matters worse. When we get a good O-line and receiving corps in place, John Beck or whoever we have in the QB slot will look much better and Kyle Shanahan will look a lot smarter.

Playing off of this, Shanny's offense was almost always top 10, often top 5. And even in the FO, his weakness was selecting defensive players, his strength was offense. Reading what i could about the off season, and heck Shanny flat out said it during his pre draft press conference, the priority was upgrading the defensive personnel. He flat out said his top priority is to upgrade the pass rush. and right now arguably that's now the strength of our team, we've led or close to led the league in sacks all season. The idea I gather was the offense will be worked on next. And yeah this is Shanny's drill, and I expect this next draft and free agent class to reflect this. Shanny is no dummy, so I really doubt critics on this board and the media have a better handle on what needs to be done to fix it versus him.

[PeterMP]

Unfortunately, another answer is "ego" or just being a coach. I get it - Coach just could not do 2-14. It is in his DNA - as it should be, but ...

But he can do more 6-10?

[brandymac27]

First of all, let me just say I am frustrated as well. I think the problem for many of us lies in the fact that not only have we been losing some (supposedly) winnable games, but we have been losing really badly- as in really embarrassing badly.

I think we are in rebuild mode, but the problem is that we started rebuilding w/ Rex, and since he was benched, we have to ultimately start the rebuilding process over again at (almost) mid season w/ Beck (who is not looking too good so far).

It's as if we have a rebuild within a rebuild going on, and it's so chaotic that it seems as if we have no chance left to finish the season with a decent record. All we can do know is sit back, observe, and wait for the off season.

I am one who wants desperately to see Rex starting again. I know he isn't the long term solution, but at the very least, he'll save us some embarrassment and give us a little something to look forward to on game day. I know that Rex played very bad and is a turnover machine, but he still had us winning games and other teams had to respect that, no matter how many picks he threw per game. But what I don't understand is if Rex can get benched for playing poorly, yet still having a winning record, why wouldn't Mike bench Beck for the same thing? It's almost hypocritical to a degree to keep Beck in after his horrible play, after benching Rex who is obviously the better QB (even if only temporarily).

I know there's a lot of other factors that play into who Mike decides to start at QB, but right now, you have to wonder if he would earn some respect out of the locker room by benching Beck for Rex (just for the reason that he is openly admitting a mistake). As a fan, I wouldn't blame him for that. I would respect the heck out of a person that admits he screwed up and now wants to fix the problem. And as loyal as some of our guys are, like Moss, Fletcher, Davis, Cooley, etc I can't imagine them looking down on Mike for a mistake as long as he's attempting to fix it.

OTOH, I can see him losing respect from the guys if he continues handling things the way he has been. I think the guys think the season is lost and there's nothing left to play for. If they feel he can't lead them and put them in a position to win games, they could very well lose faith in Mike, which long term could have really bad effects on the whole team. That's why I think the best thing for everyone is to put Rex back in. Let's get some positivity back before the whole thing collapses and Mike loses everyone.

[Skinsinparadise]

I think we are in rebuild mode, but the problem is that we started rebuilding w/ Rex, and since he was benched, we have to ultimately start the rebuilding process over again at (almost) mid season w/ Beck (who is not looking too good so far)..

How is a 9 year veteran, 31 years old, who has had three surgeries, can't move very well, and didn't even come to camp in shape, part of the rebuild process?

[Win4us]

8 in a row...or we don't go!!!

Just kidding...we are the suck. And that's okay as long as the younglings get some needed playing time.

[GoDeep81]

Rebuild, no rebuild, reguardless of our current state, we'd still look much better and be alot more interesting had we not lost all our key personnel to injury.. That was my claim coming into the season.. We'd be "fun" to watch if we could avoid injuries, and we just didnt.. We had a decent cast of starters and little to no depth to go with it.. Hopefully it doesnt take 3 full years to become relevant, but with our luck it'll probably take 4..