Should Joe Paterno retire or step down after Jerry Sandusky alleged molestation???

[MassSkinsFan]

And like Destino said, it wasn't that the cops weren't notified, NO ONE involved in this did anything. So to place all the blame on Paterno is foolish.

And I think this is where the problem is - lots of us are pissed off at everyone involved, but our message is interpreted as anger directed solely at Paterno. The OP asked about Paterno, not about any of the others.

Should they all be held accountable? Yes. Do I think Paterno should share some of the responsibility? Absolutely. But I'm not saying he's more culpable than anyone else.

[MattFancy]

And I think this is where the problem is - lots of us are pissed off at everyone involved, but our message is interpreted as anger directed solely at Paterno. The OP asked about Paterno, not about any of the others.

Should they all be held accountable? Yes. Do I think Paterno should share some of the responsibility? Absolutely. But I'm not saying he's more culpable than anyone else.

And that's how I feel too. Paterno wasn't a saint in this situation, but in the order of placing blame, I wouldn't put him towards the top.

[elkabong82]

Yeah I'm sure you mentioned them at some point in between ranting about Paterno. Just to be clear Paterno is a monster because he reported this incident to the wrong authority correct? That in your mind puts him out in front of a situation where two people witnessed rapes and allowed it to continue, a charity cleared a monster and gave him more children, the justice system refused to act, and school officials lied to authorities. Just so we are clear you think the fact that he called school officials and not the police puts him on equal footing with the before mentioned organizations and people? I disagree if that's the case. I do however think it's likely he was more actively involved, which is why I'd like him investigated. Currently however if you strip the names from the situation his role is that last anyone would focus on.

... but he's famous! That apparently makes this circus justifiable. Someone get a camera man and pep rally over to that mans house immediately!

smh. the one claiming he wants to talk about other people involved keeps bringing up Paterno. And I've explained many times in here, as have others, why Paterno should be held responsible as well. You're cookie cutter version of why that is, combined with your deflection attempts, and intially trying to excuse Paterno, seems to show you really don't care why paterno should be held responsible, and it seems you don't want him to be.

Seriously, stop crying about the focus being on Paterno if you're going to keep bringing him up as well and then play this stupid game where all of a sudden you don't understand the argument others and I have presented to you, several times, as to why Paterno should be responsible as well. Perhaps if you actually cared about the position others and I have taken then you wouldn't make the stupid assumptions and ask the the stupid questions you have about it here in your post.

They are ALL responsible, everyone who knew and did nothing, allowing the abuse to continue. It's been said by most in here repeatedly. Yet for you, as you admit in your post, Paterno should be the last one to be focused on, if he wasn't famous then nobody would focus on him so much. LMAO! Yeah, nobody would care about the head coach when his DC was caught in the showers and such was reported to him. Are you kidding me? Nobody would have interest in the head coach Sandusky worked under? And people going after Paterno is a "circus?" Are you a Paterno fan? Is that why you keep deflecting from him and trying to minimize his role in all of this?

Newsfalsh, everyone seems to agree that Sandusky is guilty, that Curly, Schultz, the school President, the charity, the janitor, and McQueary and others who knew but did little or covered it up, are to blame. The ONLY person people keep asking about whether he is responsible or not, is Joe Paterno. Hence the conversation continues. Paterno is the only one who's guilt is still being questioned, and yes, he's famous, hence the focus stayed on him, plus the OP is about him as well. That doesn't mean people are only blaming him, or holding him more responsible. Only someone who didn't want Paterno to be blamed would infer such it seems.

[TimmySmith]

Should they all be held accountable? Yes. Do I think Paterno should share some of the responsibility? Absolutely. But I'm not saying he's more culpable than anyone else.

I say he is more culpable because he has a greater say in the direction of any event relating to PS football. He could have ignored the problem but made Sandusky a pariah around the football program. He did neither, which set the tone for everyone else's response. I would also be willing to wager that people wanted to come forward, but no one wanted to responsibility for tarnishing Joe's career. The way PSU has handled Joe's decade long retirement is evidence that no one dared stand up to the guy.

[bcl05]

This is definitely not just about Paterno. Its about a community who were alerted to a serial child rapist in their midst. The community failed. Any of a significant number of people could have stopped this. The leaders of the community (Paterno included) elected to do as little as possible and to protect their image rather than the kids. It reveals a toxic, flawed, morally bankrupt community from the top down. Everyone who had any knowledge about this need to be held responsible.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Look, I've been in the Paterno cult since I was 8 years old. He is getting blame in this because there was a child being raped in his locker room, he knew about it, and nothing was done.

I know who Joe Paterno is. He has never been afraid to take on anyone from Richard Nixon to Jackie Sherril to some redneck in the crowd booing his black QB. He could have stopped this. **** the chain of command. Joe Paterno has not been part of a chain of command or university protocols since the day he turned down the Patriots' job in 1972 - one year before I was born for the record. Seven years ago, Joe Paterno told his university president and this same AD to go **** themselves when they came to his front door and told him to resign. Now, he suddenly has to do what they say?

And I am placing blame everywhere, but there are only two people involved in this who I have known about and followed since my childhood. Those people are Paterno and Sandusky. Sandusky is obviously the monster here. But Paterno - to me - is the one who could have stopped him. I always thought Joe would do the right thing, consequences be damned. I never thought he would do the minimum required by law in any situation like this.

[Destino]

Again though, everyone knows Sandusky is a POS who will get what's coming to him. Everyone knows Curly and Schultz covered it up. Everyone knows McQueary should have done more, most suspect he didn't for the sake of his future job. Paterno's responsibility is unsure for some, and they keep bringing him up in here, hence people keep replying and reaffirming why they believe Paterno is responsible as well. Others have talked about the charity, the janitor, the DA, McQueary's dad, the President of PSU doing little in '98, etc. The consensus seems to be they are all responsible as well, and that such shows a massive cover up by many just to protect the school name. It's sickening.

Look If you want to lie to yourself and say that people like me wondering why you nuts are fixated on Paterno are the real reason for your fixation have at it. You say "everyone knows Sandusky... will get what's coming to him". I doubt that. You see he got out on bail almost instantly and is currently enjoying his free time in his home 1000 feet from a elementary school. Something tells me that if there was a tad more focus on him (and with it pressure) that wouldn't be the case. Almost no one has noticed that.... I guess it's because people like me keep distracting you and forcing you to talk about Paterno.

[rdsknbill]

Now I think the higher ups in this case should definitely been fired and humiliated. But as far as Paterno, I'm not sure what to do about him. I think him going to the AD was probably the right move at the time. Should he have done more? Looking at it now, absolutely. But, we don't know all the details with Paterno in this case. We don't know for sure if he followed up with anything. I just have a tough time making Paterno out to be a villain in all this.

I'm by no means a Paterno or PSU fan. I just don't think he deserves to be crucified for this.

The whole University Hierarchy should be crucified for this. That I agree with.

However the "looking back he should've done more" statements enrage me.

However, Joe has always carried the persona for genuinely caring for his players and the student body. He has asked the parents of his players to put their trust in him that they will compete at a high level and get their degree from PSU.

That said, he also has a responsibility for the actions of his coaches, and to protect the community from a predator like Sundusky, who HE KNEW had violated young boys. Ok, yes, he went to the AD, and Sandusky suddenly retires. But with the knowledge that Joe had, how does he give this creep full access to the facility? how does he NOT react to the deviant actions that were witnessed after the initial incident? Here it is in a nut shell. The guy is a walking, living God at Penn State. To say that he shouldn't be held accountable for YEARS of abuse that was happening under his own nose, IN HIS FACILITIES, is ludicrous.

I am a Penn State fan, Have been for a very long time.

Is it a sad way for a great career to end? Yes! Does he get a pass because he's Joe Paterno? NO!

[elkabong82]

And that's how I feel too. Paterno wasn't a saint in this situation, but in the order of placing blame, I wouldn't put him towards the top.

everyone who knew and didn't take it to the cops when little punishment was given to sandusky and he was allowed to continue his life without cops being involved, to keep doing his predatory acts, they all are equally guilty.

[MassSkinsFan]

I say he is more culpable because he has a greater say in the direction of any event relating to PS football. He could have ignored the problem but made Sandusky a pariah around the football program. He did neither, which set the tone for everyone else's response. I would also be willing to wager that people wanted to come forward, but no one wanted to responsibility for tarnishing Joe's career. The way PSU has handled Joe's decade long retirement is evidence that no one dared stand up to the guy.

TS, this is interesting. There are a few different modes to the question of his need to act on information related to Sandusky.

There's the legal obligation, which I'd say he fulfilled.

There's the moral obligation where I think he fell down, but which is debatable because you can complicate it by questioning the level of information, influence or power he had relative to other players in the case.

And then there's the self-preservation obligation. Why didn't he do more to ensure this wouldn't blow up in his face as it now has? If for no other reason than to cover his own ass, he should have made sure that Sandusky's behavior ceased, at least when it could be tied in any way to Penn State, as soon as he knew it was even possibly true.

[MattFancy]

everyone who knew and didn't take it to the cops when little punishment was given to sandusky and he was allowed to continue his life without cops being involved, to keep doing his predatory acts, they all are equally guilty.

But didn't it go to the cops and nothing happened?

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Look If you want to lie to yourself and say that people like me wondering why you nuts are fixated on Paterno are the real reason for your fixation have at it. You say "everyone knows Sandusky... will get what's coming to him". I doubt that. You see he got out on bail almost instantly and is currently enjoying his free time in his home 1000 feet from a elementary school. Something tells me that if there was a tad more focus on him (and with it pressure) that wouldn't be the case. Almost no one has noticed that.... I guess it's because people like me keep distracting you and forcing you to talk about Paterno.

Um, what do you suggest people do? Go to Sandusky's house with torches and pitchforks?

He's the legal system's problem now. Short of becoming a vigilante, there is nothing I can really say or do about him. I would like to find out who victim #2 is. The tragedy in all this is that he has not been idenitified yet by the police.

---------- Post added November-9th-2011 at 01:50 PM ----------

But didn't it go to the cops and nothing happened?

The 1998 case went to the police.

The 2002 incident that McQueary allegedly witnesed did not.

[TimmySmith]

Look If you want to lie to yourself and say that people like me wondering why you nuts are fixated on Paterno are the real reason for your fixation have at it. You say "everyone knows Sandusky... will get what's coming to him".

My question to people who think like you is "why do you think I am a nut for thinking Joe should have turned in a kid raper?"

[elkabong82]

Look If you want to lie to yourself and say that people like me wondering why you nuts are fixated on Paterno are the real reason for your fixation have at it. You say "everyone knows Sandusky... will get what's coming to him". I doubt that. You see he got out on bail almost instantly and is currently enjoying his free time in his home 1000 feet from a elementary school. Something tells me that if there was a tad more focus on him (and with it pressure) that wouldn't be the case. Almost no one has noticed that.... I guess it's because people like me keep distracting you and forcing you to talk about Paterno.

Continue to ignore what I say and call me and others nuts instead. What an excellent way to find out what the answers to the questions you were asking were. Obviously you really cared about what I had to say by asking me questions and then addressing the points in my answers. It's good to have posters like you who ask important questions and then take the time to discuss the answers they are given, instead of some of the others who simply refuse to acknowledge the answers they are given and continue with deflections instead. So... kudos!

Perhaps if you read the other thread, the one on the entire mess at PSU, not the one on Paterno, you'd see that the video of Sandusky at his house was posted, and lots of angry posts ensued from it.

Or you can just carry on with your fantasy land perception that people are only talking about Paterno, ignoring the fact you are in a thread specifically about paterno, and that the other information you keep asking about has long since been addressed, mostly in the actual Penn State thread. But if you did that then it wouldn't be so easy for you to keep deflecting I guess.

[Destino]

smh. the one claiming he wants to talk about other people involved keeps bringing up Paterno. And I've explained many times in here, as have others, why Paterno should be held responsible as well. You're cookie cutter version of why that is, combined with your deflection attempts, and intially trying to excuse Paterno, seems to show you really don't care why paterno should be held responsible, and it seems you don't want him to be.

So saying "stop focusing on Paterno and look at XYZ" in your bizarre opinion is really a statement designed to keep the focus on Paterno. Got it. Also I didn't initially excuse anything... I still say his role in this is overblown based on current evidence. You seem to think I'm changing my position and I keep telling you that I'm not. Perhaps I should draw a diagram for you it might help... I'll just be sure not to use the P word lest I distract you from those things you "mentioned" "pages ago" before someone on my dragged you back kicking and screaming (by asking you to talk about something else).

They are ALL responsible, everyone who knew and did nothing, allowing the abuse to continue. It's been said by most in here repeatedly. Yet for you, as you admit in your post, Paterno should be the last one to be focused on, if he wasn't famous then nobody would focus on him so much. LMAO! Yeah, nobody would care about the head coach when his DC was caught in the showers and such was reported to him. Are you kidding me? Nobody would have interest in the head coach Sandusky worked under? And people going after Paterno is a "circus?" Are you a Paterno fan? Is that why you keep deflecting from him and trying to minimize his role in all of this?

First of all when someone says "they are all responsible" it tends to spread guilt out like some bad insurance structure. I don't go for blanket statements that favor simplicity to accuracy. They are not all responsible equally because they do not all have the same responsibility. That would make things difficult though wouldn't it? I mean it's just so clean when you say "all of them" versus "the guy that actually walked in on the rape and allowed it to continue, literally" is equally as responsible as say... the second Janitor that saw Sandusky exit a gym.

[elkabong82]

But didn't it go to the cops and nothing happened?

the '98 incident went to a protective services worker and assistant DA. They, IIRC, were later told to drop the case by campus police, specifically Schultz. I believe that same assistant DA later went missing and is now presumed dead.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

So saying "stop focusing on Paterno and look at XYZ" in your bizarre opinion is really a statement designed to keep the focus on Paterno. Got it. Also I didn't initially excuse anything... I still say his role in this is overblown based on current evidence.

Joe Paterno was told that a child was raped in his locker room. Do we agree on this?

(If we disagree on this, I recommend reading the grand jury report where Paterno acknowledges that he was told a child was raped in his locker room).

[Skinz4Life12]

what was the 1998 incident? was there an eyewitness there?

[Heisenberg]

Question to Destino and anyone else getting pissed about Paterno getting blamed.

If Paterno had been told that his grandchild was seen in the shower with Sandusky, do you think he would have reacted in the same exact way?

That goes for everyone involved in the case - but it's Paterno's program and he has more influence than anyone in State College and Central PA. He's going to get discussed the most.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

what was the 1998 incident? was there an eyewitness there?

This was apparently a sting operation. Allegedly, the DA had Sandusky on tape admitting to the child's mother that he molested her son. The mother has been all over the news this week stating that this occurred. It is in the grand jury report. So he is a witness, if not an eyewitness.

Accoding to the grand jury report, there are two adult eyewitnesses in this case. McQueary in 2002 and the high school principal in 2008. Keep in mind that these cases NEVER have adult witnesses. Two is unbelievable.

It is unclear whether Paterno knew about this or not. I'm having a hard time believing he did not. Particulalry since Paterno more or less forced Sandusky out the next year.

[MattFancy]

Um' date=' what do you suggest people do? Go to Sandusky's house with torches and pitchforks?

He's the legal system's problem now. Short of becoming a vigilante, there is nothing I can really say or do about him. I would like to find out who victim #2 is. The tragedy in all this is that he has not been idenitified yet by the police.

---------- Post added November-9th-2011 at 01:50 PM ----------

The 1998 case went to the police.

The 2002 incident that McQueary allegedly witnesed did not.

the '98 incident went to a protective services worker and assistant DA. They, IIRC, were later told to drop the case by campus police, specifically Schultz. I believe that same assistant DA later went missing and is now presumed dead.

But what I'm saying is that everyone is saying they should've got the police involved. When they did, nothing came out of it.

Edit: this is from the GJ Report:

After a lengthy investigation by University Police Detective Ronald Shreffler, the investigation was closed after then-Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar decided there would be no criminal charges.

[John Lydon]

Question to Destino and anyone else getting pissed about Paterno getting blamed.

If Paterno had been told that his grandchild was seen in the shower with Sandusky, do you think he would have reacted in the same exact way?

That goes for everyone involved in the case - but it's Paterno's program and he has more influence than anyone in State College and Central PA. He's going to get discussed the most.

That's a ludicrus argument point. If a child is throwing a tantrum in a store, would you step in? Probably not. If your own child was throwing a tantrum would you step in? That argument doesn't stick. I think the main point anyone upset about Paterno being targeted is this:

We can all agree Paterno fulfilled his LEGAL obligations when handling the situation.

People are outraged that Joe did not do more to end this situation given his power and status at Happy Valley.

The question is why is more expected out of Joe and why should he be crucified for not going above and beyond the requirements?

I think that is the question people are trying to get answered. So far the only answer that comes out to this question is "because he's Joe Paterno!" which equates to a witch hunt in some people's minds.

[Busch1724]

Question to Destino and anyone else getting pissed about Paterno getting blamed.

If Paterno had been told that his grandchild was seen in the shower with Sandusky, do you think he would have reacted in the same exact way?

That goes for everyone involved in the case - but it's Paterno's program and he has more influence than anyone in State College and Central PA. He's going to get discussed the most.

I think what I've felt all along is this...we are drawing the conclusion Paterno didn't do enough. Fair enough based on what we've seen so far, however we do not have the whole picture.

I'm not pissed he's getting blamed. I'm pissed about the fact that how many people were victimized by Sandusky. I think people are quickly rushing to judgement based on the fact that the GJ testimony does not contain ALL the facts of the case. Once again the purpose of that document is to implicate and provide evidence to charge those three individuals. The GJ didn't feel Joe did anything wrong. Now if they choose to investigate Joe separately they certainly will, but at this time they don't have the evidence. I also think people come to the conclusion Joe knows everything that goes on at the campus. That is humanly not possible. It's also impossible to know everything that goes on at the sports department alone. Hell knowing everything about the football program would be a full time job, let alone coaching. If we find out later on that Joe was negligent, then get the pitchforks. Knowing Joe's track record he did what he thought was right at the time. Hindsight being what it is, he feels differently. He was the first to admit that.

[elkabong82]

So saying "stop focusing on Paterno and look at XYZ" in your bizarre opinion is really a statement designed to keep the focus on Paterno. Got it. Also I didn't initially excuse anything... I still say his role in this is overblown based on current evidence. You seem to think I'm changing my position and I keep telling you that I'm not. Perhaps I should draw a diagram for you it might help... I'll just be sure not to use the P word lest I distract you from those things you "mentioned" "pages ago" before someone on my dragged you back kicking and screaming (by asking you to talk about something else).

First of all when someone says "they are all responsible" it tends to spread guilt out like some bad insurance structure. I don't go for blanket statements that favor simplicity to accuracy. They are not all responsible equally because they do not all have the same responsibility. That would make things difficult though wouldn't it? I mean it's just so clean when you say "all of them" versus "the guy that actually walked in on the rape and allowed it to continue, literally" is equally as responsible as say... the second Janitor that saw Sandusky exit a gym.

First off, wow, how the heck do you interpret yourself as saying you want to focus on other stuff, not Paterno, but then bringing up Paterno in a another post, as being "designed to keep the focus on paterno" is beyond me. You're reading comprehension is way off today, but that might be on purpose given the deflection and ignoring answers to your questions that you've been doing in here. Where did I say you changed your position? I've said the same thing, that you keep deflecting from Paterno, possibly because you're a fan of his, while willfully ignoring the fact that this a Paterno thread. These posts can be read on here by all, so there's no point in making stuff up at this point, I hope you're aware.

I said you earlier brought up Paterno, asking about his responsibility, which you did. I mentioned other posters were doing the same thing, instead of reading the thread, where they would have seen their questions were answered pages ago. I mentioned these as a reason Paterno keeps being brought up. I also mentioned as another reason that, of all involved, Paterno seems to be the only one who's guilt is still in question for some. These are pretty straight forward reasons, and answers to your question about why the focus has been so large on Paterno. You still won't acknowledge them, and instead make stuff up which completely misrepresents what I said. So, again, why keep asking questions when you've shown you don't care about the answers?

Second, when a child is raped and those who know don't ensure police action is taken, they are all responsible. The fact you care more about what level of guilt there should be, and that Paterno's should be minimized, and that you think the head coach would be the least important one if he wasn't famous, and that you're questioning why Paterno is getting so much focus, in a Paterno thread, while ignoring that his guilt is the only one still being questioned, is pretty dubious and is doing nothing to further beneficial discussion, and seems to be just a continued attempt by you to minimize the blame for Paterno. Again, those who knew and did nothing when cops did not get involved, are all equally to blame because they did little or nothing. I don't care about their varying degrees of guilt, I care that they all did very little, if anything, seemingly to protect the PSU label.

Again I ask, are you a Paterno fan?

[Skinz4Life12]

This was apparently a sting operation. Allegedly' date=' the DA had Sandusky on tape admitting to the child's mother that he molested her son. The mother has been all over the news this week stating that this occurred. It is in the grand jury report. So he is a witness, if not an eyewitness.

Accoding to the grand jury report, there are two adult eyewitnesses in this case. McQueary in 2002 and the high school principal in 2008. Keep in mind that these cases NEVER have adult witnesses. Two is unbelievable.

It is unclear whether Paterno knew about this or not. I'm having a hard time believing he did not. Particulalry since Paterno more or less forced Sandusky out the next year.[/quote']

so the 1998 case was the one where the boy came home with wet hair? then his mom let investigators eavesdrop on her conversations with Sandusky? Thats confusing because the DA report is not chronological by victim.

What do you mean there were no adult witnesses? Wasn't McQueary like 28 when he saw the kid getting raped in the shower?

Wasnt the second eyewitness some janitor that was a war vet??