PJM/ On Liberty and Abortion

[TheLongshot]

i think we are human the very moment that sperm meets egg. it's not like we evolve in the womb from another species. when the egg and sperm meet and we each get our first cell, we already have our entire genetic code that the rest of our bodies use for our entire existence.

that just gets multiplied trillions of times over. just b/c we are smaller, look like ugly aliens, and live inside a woman for those nine months shouldn't mean that we are a different creature.

no offense to anyone, but when people make the argument that the fetus is not human, it's almost like they don't want the fetus to be human so they can feel better about abortion so they just rationalize.

I don't know if I'd call a bunch of cells a human being by itself. To me, there needs to be a certain amount of consciousness to reach that level. (Bringing back the subject Terri Schiavo.) Problem is, what is the threshold for that for a fetus? I don't know.

[chipwhich]

I don't know if I'd call a bunch of cells a human being by itself. To me, there needs to be a certain amount of consciousness to reach that level. (Bringing back the subject Terri Schiavo.) Problem is, what is the threshold for that for a fetus? I don't know.

Well if your wife was 1 week pregnant or 40 weeks pregnant, there shouldn't be a question.

[IONTOP]

Maybe we should introduce laws to "It's illegal if you're 'showing'" because when others ask you if you're preggos, then it should finally set in that there's a kid inside of you and it's not gas...

I honestly don't feel strongly about this issue, don't ask me why (probably because I take a different view every time), but I know with my sexual habits now, abortion is not an option for any of my future swimmers...

[Burgold]

I really think it depends how you define "human" Every so often you read the story of a person who grows up and discovers that they have the fetus of an unborn twin that remained within them for twenty, thirty, or fifty years. Was that human? It never exactly lived (life being defined as having the ability to reproduce, have motility, and growth.) What distinguishes a human from other forms of life though is its ability to feel emotions, empathize, problem solve (wait a minute all animals do this to a greater or lesser extent) and have something of the eternal, a soul, reside within them. For me, they become a human when consciousness, when the capacity to think, and feel arrives. Now, I'm not sure when that is. Heck, I'm not even sure if the bacteria I murder by the billions every time I take a shower has any capacity to think and feel, but that's what I believe nontheless.

So, it's within that gray area between living and human that's the problem. The eugenics issue twa argues about I also worry about too. Do you kill a child/abort a fetus if you discover it's going to be born blind? Have a cognitive diability? Isn't blonde and blue eyed? Is gay? I'd hope not. Then again, at this stage we don't mandate any justification for aborting a fetus other than the mother doesn't want to have a kid.

It's not an easy argument in any respect unless you take the moral position that they are all alive and already human. Then, it becomes simple. Black and white, because while humans love to kill humans after they're born. See war, murder, lynchings, capital punishment, etc. They're squeamish when it comes to killing innocents unless it's war or genocide... and I think then man decides once again... oh, it's not human because it's Jewish, or Cambodian, or its skin is too light or too dark.

---------- Post added July-15th-2011 at 06:08 AM ----------

I guess I'd also ask why is an unborn life so much more infinitely valuable than a living one?

[DRSmith]

There really is no comparison.

I can't discuss personal protection - vs - abortion.

Not sure how aborting a baby is the same as protecting your person/family from harm.

Really what about those women who have abortions to protect their own health?

How about those who do so protect their wealth?

---------- Post added July-15th-2011 at 06:44 AM ----------

If a adult human needs life support it is also no longer human then? (I actually believe that to a degree,or at least tell myself that to justify what I've done)

Not much in life is more important than life.....one of the few reasons we allow taking it is self preservation of our own.

Not picking on you with this though

So by not proviing life support for all humans and equal access to health care for all would then be giulty of showing some as having a life worth less than others?

---------- Post added July-15th-2011 at 06:46 AM ----------

I would think the medical prognosis would matter(and does for adults)in such cases

of course then you get into chance of recovery,and what that state of recovery would be.

It's a interesting contrast that while you can with hold medical care to a degree,there can be not medical intervention to end the life(even in cases judged beyond recovery) of those in the last stages

if we extended those same standards to unborn children well over 90% after the first few weeks have a excellent prognosis

---------- Post added July-15th-2011 at 12:17 AM ----------

I wouldn't call it easy...do it wrong and you will be in prison...or lose your own life

There are rather strict rules on the ending of innocent life....a example would be the result of killing your neighbor when shooting at a burglar...not justifiable

But you are saying it is olay to kill a burglar so killing in the protection of wealth seems to be okay to you

[mardi gras skin]

Best I can tell, pro-choice advocates acknowledge that the unborn is a human being (basic biology) but they deny that an unborn human is a PERSON. Its not so much a biological position as a legal position. So the unborn human does not have the rights of personhood even though it is a human being.

[twa]

Really what about those women who have abortions to protect their own health?

How about those who do so protect their wealth?

---------- Post added July-15th-2011 at 06:44 AM ----------

So by not proviing life support for all humans and equal access to health care for all would then be giulty of showing some as having a life worth less than others?

---------- Post added July-15th-2011 at 06:46 AM ----------

But you are saying it is olay to kill a burglar so killing in the protection of wealth seems to be okay to you

abortions that are medically necessary are a very minor percent,and fall under protection of self

How does killing a unborn child protect wealth or it equate to a burglar?

The child 's purpose is not to take from you

The child is a innocent bystander,and women have the right to abandon them at birth

[SnyderShrugged]

Tell me what is the difference between the mindset that walks around with a weapon that can take life which you will use if you deem a threat to wealth and self and the mind set that says if I get pregnant i will end that which may result as it may kill me or because i have am not wanting to give my time or money to another

Maybe because one isnt actually killing someone and the other is?

[Bang]

Your choices are rather black and white.

I chose "something else".. but at some point it does become human. I'm just not sure when.

For example, i am dead set against these "late term" abortions other than cases where the baby or mother could die .. extreme things. And I am definitely against partial birth.. that's abominable

But early on I am not opposed to it.

I feel like this.

I'm pro choice, but it's not a choice I'd make.

I don't think it should be used lightly.

But the bottom line for me is that it is not as black and white a question as the poll makes it to be. Way too many variables.

If up to me, I'd keep it legal because of those variables.

~Bang

[SnyderShrugged]

I'm an "unborn baby is a person from conception" guy.

As a result, I am against abortion but not for religious reasons (even though I am a Christian).

My principles mandate that all individuals have very clear rights up until their rights intrude upon the rights of another individual.

I do not believe that the act of carrying a child (a result of a conscious act 99.99% of the time, rape and incest only result in a pregnancy less than one percent of all pregnancies) is an infringement on the mother's rights as an individual.

Therefore, I cannot ever agree with abortion, except in the very few instances where the unborn's life is a danger to the Mother. In that scenario, I can reluctantly provide for ending the baby's life.

[DRSmith]

Maybe because one isnt actually killing someone and the other is?

If you can deem it okay to kill another based on protection of wealth and self than taking any life you see as a threat to either at any stage is okay

---------- Post added July-15th-2011 at 08:43 AM ----------

abortions that are medically necessary are a very minor percent,and fall under protection of self

How does killing a unborn child protect wealth or it equate to a burglar?

The child 's purpose is not to take from you

The child is a innocent bystander,and women have the right to abandon them at birth

Cost to raise a child as far a time and money goes can greatly eat into onw's wealth

People can call the police also instead of shooting another person

As long as you can justify taking the life of another based on where they live or what you think they may do then really how is that different than the mindset that says end my pregnancy

[SnyderShrugged]

If you can deem it okay to kill another based on protection of wealth and self than taking any life you see as a threat to either at any stage is okay

Yes, you certainly can deem it Ok to kill another in the defense of yours or another's life. The "protection of wealth" is not the fundamental, its the protection of ones life in the event that you do not give in to demands that you give your property to another. The one threatening is the one who escalates it into a threat upon ones self.

[Tweedr01]

abortions that are medically necessary are a very minor percent,and fall under protection of self

How does killing a unborn child protect wealth or it equate to a burglar?

The child 's purpose is not to take from you

The child is a innocent bystander,and women have the right to abandon them at birth

i'm still trying to figure out how an unborn, innocent child is = burglar, someone intent on doing you harm

on one hand you have a person who wants to take from you because they can

on the other hand you have a person who wouldn't even be here if it wasn't for a personal choice you made

and just because you own a gun does not mean you want to kill someone, true it CAN but it's not like we are all pharmacists shooting people 5 - 6 times to make sure they are dead. why can't we just put on in their arm, leg, or any other spot where there are no vital organs just to put the person down? not every shot is a kill shot.

---------- Post added July-15th-2011 at 08:49 AM ----------

Cost to raise a child as far a time and money goes can greatly eat into onw's wealth

People can call the police also instead of shooting another person

As long as you can justify taking the life of another based on where they live or what you think they may do then really how is that different than the mindset that says end my pregnancy

uhhhhh, since when did shooting someone automatically result in death? pretty sure you can shoot someone without killing them, can you have an abortion without doing the same?

[DRSmith]

Yes, you certainly can deem it Ok to kill another in the defense of yours or another's life. The "protection of wealth" is not the fundamental, its the protection of ones life in the event that you do not give in to demands that you give your property to another. The one threatening is the one who escalates it into a threat upon ones self.

But there are laws on the books where you can kill another of just feeling threatened one does not have to give voice to such a threat you shoot someone just entering your house or leaving but even on the threat of violence for property, you are saying you would rather kill another human than lose your property so if you can place the lie of another as being worth less than your goods than what is the difference between you and the person who sees a pregnancy as a threat to their goods

[Tweedr01]

Yes, you certainly can deem it Ok to kill another in the defense of yours or another's life. The "protection of wealth" is not the fundamental, its the protection of ones life in the event that you do not give in to demands that you give your property to another. The one threatening is the one who escalates it into a threat upon ones self.

yeah that dude is off his rocker, it literally feels like he is replying from a nuthouse or he is just trying to get a rise out of people. it's simply stupid to compare the two.

[twa]

But the bottom line for me is that it is not as black and white a question as the poll makes it to be. Way too many variables.

If up to me, I'd keep it legal because of those variables.

~Bang

A poll is rather useless if ya get too squishy

to me it is clearly human within days...a individual within 15

is a detectable heartbeat the sign of a human?....brainwaves?....those are proof of life and conciousness.....Not of it being human

the mothers body not rejecting it is the basic proof of it being human

[DRSmith]

i'm still trying to figure out how an unborn, innocent child is = burglar, someone intent on doing you harm

on one hand you have a person who wants to take from you because they can

on the other hand you have a person who wouldn't even be here if it wasn't for a personal choice you made

and just because you own a gun does not mean you want to kill someone, true it CAN but it's not like we are all pharmacists shooting people 5 - 6 times to make sure they are dead. why can't we just put on in their arm, leg, or any other spot where there are no vital organs just to put the person down? not every shot is a kill shot.

---------- Post added July-15th-2011 at 08:49 AM ----------

uhhhhh, since when did shooting someone automatically result in death? pretty sure you can shoot someone without killing them, can you have an abortion without doing the same?

You use a weapon that you know can result in the death of another than you can not claim you did not mean to kill them.

Do all abortions result in death?

The effect is the same to rid yourself of another whom you view a threat in someway

[Bang]

A poll is rather useless if ya get too squishy

to me it is clearly human within days...a individual within 15

is a detectable heartbeat the sign of a human?....brainwaves?....those are proof of life and conciousness.....Not of it being human

the mothers body not rejecting it is the basic proof of it being human

I'm not sure.

And I'll be completely honest, I don't know that I'm smart or wise enough to ever be sure.

That's why you rarely see me post in any abortion debates... if ever. I read them, and I am not sure why I posted in this one,, but what I wrote above is about the extent of my thinking on the whole thing. It isn't something I'd choose to do myself. I think most parents once their kids have been born probably feel that way. But at the same time, there's a lot more that could be going on that does not match my situation. My son was the usual 'accident'.. but I wasn't a 16 yr old kid, and I was at a stage in my life where it was a welcome accident. The result has given me more happiness and satisfaction than anything else in my life.

I think it's too big a question for me.

~Bang

[DRSmith]

yeah that dude is off his rocker, it literally feels like he is replying from a nuthouse or he is just trying to get a rise out of people. it's simply stupid to compare the two.

Or I am applying an equal value to the motivation behind both actions and looking at both acts through what I learned from years of bible reading

[Tweedr01]

You use a weapon that you know can result in the death of another than you can not claim you did not mean to kill them.

Do all abortions result in death?

The effect is the same to rid yourself of another whom you view a threat in someway

yes you can, police use it every day, just because you have no idea how to use one does not mean others do not. we aren't all plaxico burress, i'm not gonna bring a loaded gun to a club and shoot myself. i do this thing called 'aiming' and when i do that i can pinpoint where the bullet will hit.

yes all abortions result in death.

an unborn child is a 'threat' (your words not mine) you created, your personal decision brought them into existence, a felon is not, the felon makes that decision, they create that with their personal decision. these are completely opposite situations.

---------- Post added July-15th-2011 at 09:05 AM ----------

Or I am applying an equal value to the motivation behind both actions and looking at both acts through what I learned from years of bible reading

oh great, please do not demean Christianity by equating it to your very skewed view of abortion. you actually believe God approves of abortion? again, off your rocker, please if there is an administrator of your nuthouse watching take away this guys keyboard.

[DRSmith]

yes you can, police use it every day, just because you have no idea how to use one does not mean others do not. we aren't all plaxico burress, i'm not gonna bring a loaded gun to a club and shoot myself. i do this thing called 'aiming' and when i do that i can pinpoint where the bullet will hit.

yes all abortions result in death.

an unborn child is a 'threat' (your words not mine) you created, your personal decision brought them into existence, a felon is not, the felon makes that decision, they create that with their personal decision. these are completely opposite situations.

---------- Post added July-15th-2011 at 09:05 AM ----------

oh great, please do not demean Christianity by equating it to your very skewed view of abortion. you actually believe God approves of abortion? again, off your rocker, please if there is an administrator of your nuthouse watching take away this guys keyboard.

No I never said God approved of abortion but I do know if one used an instrument of metal or iron against a fellow they could not claim to have to have not meant to kill the other

It sad when people have to resort to name calling as they can refute an arguement

[Warpath11]

It's a horrible subject to talk about but just to thorw in another element to the debate: What if there is something wrong with the fetus and it is detected early? For example, genetic disorders (Trisomy 18, 21 etc...). Many of these genetic disorders can be fatal soon after birth? If one chooses an abortion due to these abnormalities is it still completely wrong?

[Henry]

Does the Census count pregnant women as two people?

Do fetuses have social security numbers? Is everyone's birthday the day they were conceived? Do we have funerals for fetuses after miscarriages?

People insist there's not gray area but clearly there is, which is why this topic is so touchy. There's no clear answer. And why, in my opinion, this poll is useless.

Off to find a thread about politics ...

[Tweedr01]

No I never said God approved of abortion but I do know if one used an instrument of metal or iron against a fellow they could not claim to have to have not meant to kill the other

It sad when people have to resort to name calling as they can refute an arguement

so if i flick my neighbor with a metal pen and laugh about it i couldn't have done it without meaning to kill him? btw, yes i am twisting your argument, it's about as dumb as the counter argument you have been going on about

you haven't been called any names, but your argument is completely stupid. you have already been shown why these two scenarios aren't even close to being equal yet you continue to plug your ears, lalalalalalala, and keep it up (that means your argument has been refuted, and it's spelled argument, so can it)

---------- Post added July-15th-2011 at 09:28 AM ----------

Do fetuses have social security numbers? Is everyone's birthday the day they were conceived? Do we have funerals for fetuses after miscarriages?

People insist there's not gray area but clearly there is, which is why this topic is so touchy. There's no clear answer. And why, in my opinion, this poll is useless.

Off to find a thread about politics ...

lol

[Bliz]

abortions that are medically necessary are a very minor percent,and fall under protection of self

What about mental health? Since you include protection of kids that are the result of rape or incest, how do we, as a society, justify saying to a woman "I'm really sorry that you were attacked, but even though you're a victim we're going to force you to endure 9 months of psychological torture"

And that is exactly what it would be. Psychological torture that, independent of the original act, would require years of therapy for someone to get over, if they could ever get over it. And that doesn't even begin to address the impact it would have on the relationship of wife and husband if the victim was married

For the folks that have had kids or know people who have, you know the social aspect of being pregnant. Now imagine how twisted it would be if that baby was the product of rape and the mom didn't want to keep it.

How does a married couple explain to friends and family why they gave the child up? Guess the fact of the attack has to become public knowledge. Just more psychological torture for the mom. Yeah, the baby didn't do anything wrong, but neither did the mother