Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Yeah but how often is abortion really a medical decision vs a convenience or "can't afford the hassle" decision? Do we really trust lawyers to decide when an egg becomes a person and again, what if we're wrong? Who should make the call? Theologians? How do we find out if we are wrong or not? Anyway...this is now devolving into a standard "Abortion is wrong/No, it's not" debate. And that bores me, and I have no great interest in going down that road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Yeah if you're a rapist. You are trying desperately to avoid the 9 months of inequality and I'm not going to let you do it. You know what I meant so cut the bull****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 That seems like a positively medeival rule. I can't imagine a situation where someone else has the power to veto my medical decisions. I know that legally I am incorrect, but once I heard my children's heartbeats, they were people. I talked to them. I sang to them. They were real people. And while I suspect you intend no insult, it's simply unfair to categorize an abortion or a pregnancy as a decision that ONLY affects the mother. Likewise, it's unfair for someone with my point of view to fully ignore the mother's concerns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GibbsFactor Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 You are trying desperately to avoid the 9 months of inequality and I'm not going to let you do it. You know what I meant so cut the bull****. Dude, it's ****ing nature. Women carry in almost 99% of all of nature. This is nothing new. Why is it the man's fault solely? She laid down and spread her legs. Of course the MOTHER bears most of the burden but not all of it. Yet she gets all of the say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 If there are X number of babies currently being raised out of the standard nuclear family model, then the proportion of X that has a single woman bearing over half of the burden (financially and otherwise) is FAR greater than the proportion of X that has a man bearing over half of teh burden (financially and otherwise). And the statistic isn't even close. Uh, I'd be really skeptical of any such statistic. (Even if you'd provided one. ) Now, I'd argue that there are a lot more burdens of raising a child than just the amount of the check that gets written. And that these burdens are really tough to quantify. (What's the "cost" of being the one that has to take the kid to the Doctor's, for every checkup and health problem?.) (I'll point out that I've read that it's a pretty good conclusion that the biggest reason why women make less money than men, is because they take a lot more time off to be with their families. Could you argue that all (or even most) of the lower wages women make, is a "cost of child rearing"?) My suspicion is that if you only confine yourself to those expenses of child care which can be directly and precisely quantified, that it would at least appear that the men contribute far more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 This is something some of you pro choicers don't seem to grasp and I fully understand where the hog is coming from.One missed pill, ripped condom, untimely pull out and the man's life is in the woman's hands re: this decision. The woman can end it. The man is completely powerless. Yep. It's not equal. When the man can (has to) carry the baby in his body, then it will be equal. We grasp that fully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I know that legally I am incorrect, but once I heard my children's heartbeats, they were people. I talked to them. I sang to them. They were real people. And while I suspect you intend no insult, it's simply unfair to categorize an abortion or a pregnancy as a decision that ONLY affects the mother.Likewise, it's unfair for someone with my point of view to fully ignore the mother's concerns. Would you allow a father who does not want to have a child to force an abortion on the mother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbear Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Maybe a silly question: Are we sure the board doesn't say her name? I ask this because I wonder whether yahoo would put it in their article risking possible legal actions. I note, the article said they contacted her friends for quotes. How did they know who the mother would have been? I ask because I haven't seen the picture of the board, and it seems like it would have normally been in the article. Would it mentioning her name change anyone's opinion on the legality or morality of putting up? It would seem the "if the MOTHER hadn't killed..." part could be a cover which has the potential to change the story. I don't think it changes my views. It's just something I found curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardi gras skin Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Look. Let's not turn this into a general "Should abortion be legal" debate.If you think abortion should be illegal' date=' you think abortion should be illegal. That's your right to believe that. But if it remains legal, you can't give someone else veto power over it.[/quote'] GibbsFactor said, "This goes to the 'when is the fertilized egg a person' argument," and you said, "not really." But of course personhood is central to the discussion. Legally she has the right to abort the fetus because the fetus does not possess human rights under the law. She has the right to cut the fetus out of her womb just like she has the right to cut breast tissue from her chest. But these fathers want rights regarding the fetus because they believe the fetus to be a person...specifically, their children. If they agreed with you that the fetus is no different than breast tissue, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 This is something some of you pro choicers don't seem to grasp and I fully understand where the hog is coming from.One missed pill, ripped condom, untimely pull out and the man's life is in the woman's hands re: this decision. The woman can end it. The man is completely powerless. I grasp it just fine and I'm a big time father's rights advocate. I find it pathetic however that men, knowing full well, that pregnancy is not a two way street some how feel justified in their whining about how gets to make a decision on a medical procedure that physically doesn't involve them. Until babies are created in tanks or in men, it's not going to be our call. The reason is simple enough for you to understand: women have to carry it around for 9 months. As it deeply involves their bodies and not ours, the decision is theirs. What are you going to do if you tell her she can't abort and the law agrees? Follow her around to make sure she doesn't engage in any behavior that could endanger the baby? Lock her up if she does? This is clear as day and you just refuse to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GibbsFactor Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Yep. It's not equal. When the man can (has to) carry the baby in his body, then it will be equal. We grasp that fully. I'd like to see a study performed regarding why abortions are done and what percentage has to do with the mother's health during pregnancy vs. the burden of raising a child. I'll bet you the latter is the majority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I know that legally I am incorrect, but once I heard my children's heartbeats, they were people. I talked to them. I sang to them. They were real people. And while I suspect you intend no insult, it's simply unfair to categorize an abortion or a pregnancy as a decision that ONLY affects the mother. No one says it is a decision that ONLY affects the mother. I'm a father, I know how it feels. It affects me greatly. Ideally, both people should make the hard decisions, of course. Nevertheless, if they don't agree, it is ONE of their bodies at stake. Only one of them who has to let themselves be used as an incubator. So they get the veto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I'd like to see a study performed regarding why abortions are done and what percentage has to do with the mother's health during pregnancy vs. the burden of raising a child.I'll bet you the latter is the majority. Again, that's not the issue here. Go start at "Pro-Choice/Pro-Life" thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 first this: One missed pill, ripped condom, untimely pull out and the man's life is in the woman's hands re: this decision. The woman can end it. The man is completely powerless. then this: She laid down and spread her legs. Hands up of those that are surprised? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Again, too simple. The fraud is in the part you left out at the end, where she announces her plans for an abortion, thereby going back on their agreement. Yeah, you're right. It's terrible, all the women out there who are tricking guys into having sex, by promising to get pregnant, just so that they can experience the thrill of an abortion, at the expense of the poor innocent male victim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Would you allow a father who does not want to have a child to force an abortion on the mother? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 show me the person that is "pro-abortion". THere is basically no situation where abortion isn't sad or tragic... trying to throw "gothca" jibes into it is just sad and cheap.Not everyone having an abortion is a victim of rape, incest or a life threatening situation. You will more often than not encounter chicks who consider having a child an inconvenience or evidence of having an affair so they go the abortion route. There are plenty of women who use abortion as birth control (keep having unprotected sex then kill the unborn baby) and I met several. So yeah pro abortion types. And how many pro choice types have more births than abortions? not many IMHO. Then you have some groups that get upset when a church member or someone else convinces a woman to not abort have the child and give it up for adoption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Maybe a silly question: Are we sure the board doesn't say her name? His picture is on the board. Unless he has many ex-girlfriends who have had abortions, she knows it's about her. And so would anyone who knows him. ---------- Post added June-7th-2011 at 01:18 PM ---------- No. Why should the father not have the power to force an abortion if he has the power to stop one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Hands up of those that are surprised? At what? The audacity of someone to consider the incubator's (your side's term, not mine) responsibility in the equation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GibbsFactor Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I grasp it just fine and I'm a big time father's rights advocate. I find it pathetic however that men, knowing full well, that pregnancy is not a two way street some how feel justified in their whining about how gets to make a decision on a medical procedure that physically doesn't involve them. Until babies are created in tanks or in men, it's not going to be our call. The reason is simple enough for you to understand: women have to carry it around for 9 months. As it deeply involves their bodies and not ours, the decision is theirs. What are you going to do if you tell her she can't abort and the law agrees? Follow her around to make sure she doesn't engage in any behavior that could endanger the baby? Lock her up if she does? This is clear as day and you just refuse to see it. Hey buddy, I'm pro-choice. My wife is pregnant with my son, due July 11th, as we type. I know as well as any the burdens of pregnancy. If it's a medical decision so be it. If it's just "I don't want to raise a child" decision it goes beyond the pregnancy and affects both mother AND father. That's basically my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Dude, it's ****ing nature. Women carry in almost 99% of all of nature. This is nothing new. Why is it the man's fault solely? She laid down and spread her legs. Of course the MOTHER bears most of the burden but not all of it. Yet she gets all of the say. I'm sick. Give me your kidney. You don't need both of them. I demand your kidney. Oh, and some bone marrow. Now. She gets all of the say because there is no way to "divide" the say that doesn't involve telling HER what SHE can do with HER body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teller Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Hey buddy, I'm pro-choice. My wife is pregnant with my son, due July 11th, as we type. I know as well as any the burdens of pregnancy. If it's a medical decision so be it. If it's just "I don't want to raise a child" decision it goes beyond the pregnancy and affects both mother AND father. That's basically my point. Blasphemy. You don't carry the baby, so your opinion is null and void. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mardi gras skin Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Uh-huh. But you're comfortable calling this guy is a jerk because...you know what its like to be him? :slap: Putting aside our ability to walk in other people's shoes, the act of aborting your own child seems much more drastic and barbaric than putting up a billboard about having your child aborted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 Putting aside our ability to walk in other people's shoes, the act of aborting your own child seems much more drastic and barbaric than putting up a billboard about having your child aborted. Yes. We get it. Abortion is bad. Not the issue here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popeman38 Posted June 7, 2011 Share Posted June 7, 2011 I grasp it just fine and I'm a big time father's rights advocate. I find it pathetic however that men, knowing full well, that pregnancy is not a two way street some how feel justified in their whining about how gets to make a decision on a medical procedure that physically doesn't involve them. Until babies are created in tanks or in men, it's not going to be our call. The reason is simple enough for you to understand: women have to carry it around for 9 months. As it deeply involves their bodies and not ours, the decision is theirs.Wait, the mother physically being impacted for 9 months overrides the man being physically impacted for a minimum of 18 years?Also, if you apply this logic to all other laws, how many men have been arrested for emotional domestic violence? It doesn't physically impact a woman, therefore it is invalid, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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