If we were created in God's image and all born sinners... what does that say about God?

[Burgold]

One doesn't. However, if one believes that Jesus was not corrupted by the sinful nature passed from "Adam" then the virgin birth is necessary because Jesus cannot redeem the world if he himself is in need of the redemption. Think of it like this, how can a duck covered in an oil slick clean off another duck in the oil slick? It can't, so the one who is clean must come in, thus the necessity of the virgin birth.

I do have a problem with this line of thinking. If said duck was covered in an oil slick and made its way to shore and worked and worked and worked and got help and managed to become clean (to purify itself) then couldn't it reach out to other ducks and save them as well? You don't have to be born clean to become clean. We are not helpless victims to our genetic predispositions. I respect the one who must struggle and journey more than the guy born with the silver spoon in his mouth and pontificates about why the suffering are struggling. You don't have to be born virgin to redeem yourself or the world. You need to work, study, and pray very hard. God doesn't expect us to be perfect, but to try.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I think your confusion is you infer that because I think their is a Deity that I also believe there is a god who would step into 1 individuals life and inseminate them, or do anything to them for that matter. That's why you are confused. I don't think there is a Deity that will step in to your life or mine and perform a personal gesture of any sort. So hopefully you can stop inferring what I said.

Trust me I never once thought that you actually believed in any deity.

So God's children are born as sinners, and if they are unfortunate enough to be in a poorer nation, they have a higher chance of not surviving. In some countries as high as a 25% infant mortality rate. The topic is being born in God's image. How do you and ASF support the affect of genetic disorders as a result of DNA, physical disorders, mental disorders, or simply being unfortunate enough to be born yet die due to being in a high risk country for births.

Genetic disorders are evidence of the corruption of sin in the world, as are wars, famine, and death.

Point being, your concepts are based on being born "normal" and with the assumption that those born are of right mind to make a decision. It doesn't have an answer for those destined for death, retardation, or mental incapacity. Being born in gods image assumes being born whole so to speak.

Being born in God's image has nothing to do with being born whole, and you saying so doesn't make it so, because all you're doing is trying to give a false understanding of what the Imago Dei really is, and it has NOTHING to do with being "normal". In fact that abnormalities are just more evidence of the corruption that exists within us all, but to say that the corruption of sin erases or makes impossible the Imago Dei is nonsense. This is why techboy posted the pic of the dog, because you're trying to talk about theology that you don't even understand.

---------- Post added May-31st-2011 at 08:05 AM ----------

I do have a problem with this line of thinking. If said duck was covered in an oil slick and made its way to shore and worked and worked and worked and got help and managed to become clean (to purify itself) then couldn't it reach out to other ducks and save them as well? You don't have to be born clean to become clean. We are not helpless victims to our genetic predispositions. I respect the one who must struggle and journey more than the guy born with the silver spoon in his mouth and pontificates about why the suffering are struggling. You don't have to be born virgin to redeem yourself or the world. You need to work, study, and pray very hard. God doesn't expect us to be perfect, but to try.

The only problem, and you know this about Christian theology, is that the oil slick is a stain on our lives that cannot be erased by stained hands, as such there is no working ourselves clean. That's where the duck in the oil slick fails, or if understood more fully, the whole world and all of one's life is covered in the oil slick so there would be no clean place where one could get clean as sin entered the world and corrupted all.

As for the silver spoon that one is just as in need of salvation as the poor and struggling, there is no equating the blessing of a silver spoon to righteousness attained or inherited. What's more is that we are indeed called to sanctification in this life, living holy i.e. loving God and loving our neighbors.

[chipwhich]

Genetic disorders are evidence of the corruption of sin in the world, as are wars, famine, and death.

Being born in God's image has nothing to do with being born whole, and you saying so doesn't make it so, because all you're doing is trying to give a false understanding of what the Imago Dei really is, and it has NOTHING to do with being "normal". In fact that abnormalities are just more evidence of the corruption that exists within us all, but to say that the corruption of sin erases or makes impossible the Imago Dei is nonsense. This is why techboy posted the pic of the dog, because you're trying to talk about theology that you don't even understand.

OK, so the punishment for this corruption and sin is placed more heavily on the poorer nations than the richer nations. So the children born their suffer more because of it. OK, gotcha. Why are some allowed to be born "normal" and some not? Why isn't the punishment spread fairly? Not even referring to nation to nation, what about in the same household. So the children are being punished for what other people did which they had no control over? Is that true for those who die in car accidents, or from tornadoes? Just curious.

I am not trying to give a false understanding of the Imago Dei. I posed the question regarding those born not "normal" to techboy and you both refuse to answer. Asking a question of you, the expert, shouldn't be a sin You should be able to answer the question without talking around it.

Some humans get a chance to be part of your world, some don't because of not fault of their own. It's a shame some are born without a chance.

[Burgold]

I find that thought dischordant to what I believe. I won't gainsay you because how can I know, but it feels wrong and doesn't jibe with what I've been taught. It's a tough one, Asbury. I guess the closest we come on it is the acknowledgement that a person can never become perfect and so in that sense I guess there always remain a stain of oil no matter how hard, seriously, and sincerely the person works. That said, I fundamentally believe that my sincere effort, dilligence, study, and actions key the person I become and that each person can clean themselves as each friend, mentor, parent, sibling and even stranger can aid each other.

[DRSmith]

I do have a problem with this line of thinking. If said duck was covered in an oil slick and made its way to shore and worked and worked and worked and got help and managed to become clean (to purify itself) then couldn't it reach out to other ducks and save them as well? You don't have to be born clean to become clean. We are not helpless victims to our genetic predispositions. I respect the one who must struggle and journey more than the guy born with the silver spoon in his mouth and pontificates about why the suffering are struggling. You don't have to be born virgin to redeem yourself or the world. You need to work, study, and pray very hard. God doesn't expect us to be perfect, but to try.

Except due to yur genetic predisposition you will never be completely clean

Adam and Eve are the mold from which all others humas were to come forth, they chose to dent thier mold and every generation since has carried imperfection and not only that but it has been amplified over time

Now one being born with an inlination to sin does not give one a pass, under the law code one still had to make scarifices and work hard to not to sin and one could not carry on in deliberate sin and get forgiveness and it is the same with the sacrifice of Jesus

God standards do not change

[Kosher Ham]

I understand atheism. I think it's a false belief system, but I understand it.

What I do not understand is how you could, as you said, have found it more plausible if God took human flesh and impregnated Mary that way. I fail to see how the story of a powerful immaterial being creating a body ex nihilo in order to have sex is any less miraculous than said being creating a child in a virgin's womb.

That's just weird to me.

I went from Agnostic to Atheist through many, many years. I look at both of those as non-belief systems moreso than belief systems.

My point was simply that as ridiculous as my scenario is it is equally as absurb to believe that she was just pregnant one day. Someone is lying here, whether it be the teachers or the writers.

Or perhaps it is just a story. My scenario at least entertains the possibility that God is indeed a man.

The weird part to me is, as I stated before, that so many millions of people don't see the flaw in many of these miracles. And at the same time call so many other trivial things miracles. I think the are exaggerated tales, but to admit that would make people question the important parts of the story and the lessons that are trying to be taught.

[techboy]

There is so much bad thinking in this thread its almost unreadable. This is the most erratic religious thread I can remember reading.

Oh come on... there's a lot of competition.

I wanted to get this in before I forget: Why does one have to believe in the Virgin birth to believe in God ?

One doesn't.

I think your confusion is you infer that because I think their is a Deity that I also believe there is a god who would step into 1 individuals life and inseminate them, or do anything to them for that matter.

No, I already figured out you were a deist. My confusion arises because you don't seem to be following the conventions of discussion, and your answers rarely if ever seem to have anything to do with the topic of discussion, or only peripherally so.

Or maybe I'm just missing something.

That's why you are confused. I don't think there is a Deity that will step in to your life or mine and perform a personal gesture of any sort. So hopefully you can stop inferring what I said.

I'm not inferring anything. You flat out stated that believing anything supernatural forces us to believe in everything supernatural.

You have demonstrated the fallacy of this yourself, because you believe in the supernatural, yet reject other supernatural claims.

It doesn't help you to claim that you personally don't believe such a being intervenes on a day to day basis, because by definition such a being could, and also by definition you must believe such a being did at least once, if only to start the Universe running, and also because if you believe in such a being, it must have intervened in the world at least once, or you wouldn't know about it.

Your logic is literally self-refuting.

Point being, your concepts are based on being born "normal" and with the assumption that those born are of right mind to make a decision. It doesn't have an answer for those destined for death, retardation, or mental incapacity. Being born in gods image assumes being born whole so to speak.

God is loving and just, so we can rightly infer that allowances will be made for those people that do not have the capacity to understand or accept salvation.

This is kind of moot for you, though, since you don't have that problem.

I think.

Also, read AsburySkinFan's response. It addresses it further.

OK, so the punishment for this corruption and sin is placed more heavily on the poorer nations than the richer nations.

Okay, I see what you're getting at now.

Whether Adam and Eve are literal people that commited the first sin, or are an allegory to represent the sins of the first humans, in either case we're not talking about a situation where God is continually meting out punishment to every individual person.

In a very real sense, the falleness of the world is not so much a punishment as it is a natural consequence of free will. God allowed humanity free will, and humanity chose to use that to sin. Sin entered the world, and screwed everything up. We now have death, disease, decay, war, strife, etc.

That's not what God intended, and the promise that God gives is that when things are finally set right, it will not be that way again.

[DRSmith]

I went from Agnostic to Atheist through many, many years. I look at both of those as non-belief systems moreso than belief systems.

My point was simply that as ridiculous as my scenario is it is equally as absurb to believe that she was just pregnant one day. Someone is lying here, whether it be the teachers or the writers.

Or perhaps it is just a story. My scenario at least entertains the possibility that God is indeed a man.

The weird part to me is, as I stated before, that so many millions of people don't see the flaw in many of these miracles. And at the same time call so many other trivial things miracles. I think the are exaggerated tales, but to admit that would make people question the important parts of the story and the lessons that are trying to be taught.

Parthenogenesis happens today, now if we can see and at time replicate it how much easier would it be for the Creator of life to do so

[Kosher Ham]

The only problem, and you know this about Christian theology, is that the oil slick is a stain on our lives that cannot be erased by stained hands, as such there is no working ourselves clean. That's where the duck in the oil slick fails, or if understood more fully, the whole world and all of one's life is covered in the oil slick so there would be no clean place where one could get clean as sin entered the world and corrupted all.

So the point of being saved would be what ? All are corrupt, but as a poor example: The car thief is not as bad as the murderer ?

Except due to yur genetic predisposition you will never be completely clean

Adam and Eve are the mold from which all others humas were to come forth, they chose to dent thier mold and every generation since has carried imperfection and not only that but it has been amplified over time

Now one being born with an inlination to sin does not give one a pass, under the law code one still had to make scarifices and work hard to not to sin and one could not carry on in deliberate sin and get forgiveness and it is the same with the sacrifice of Jesus

God standards do not change

To me that goes back to Adam and Eve not being perfect to begin with. Do I look at this as Farmville with humans instead of farm animals ?

I am seriously not trying to be funny here, just trying to simplify it for anyone else who is reading it.

I also do not believe that we are all related to Adam and Eve somewhere down the branch of our family tree.

---------- Post added May-31st-2011 at 09:06 AM ----------

Parthenogenesis happens today, now if we can see and at time replicate it how much easier would it be for the Creator of life to do so

It happens mostly in bugs and reptiles.

I don't even think it is possible for a hermaphrodite.

Again, I would have to believe that God created man to begin with.

Don't get me wrong, I love most people and respect their beliefs. Sometimes I just don't understand them, probably the same way you feel about most people. But I don't need God to tell me to behave that way or honor my wife, family, not to steal, kill, or what have you.

[chipwhich]

I'm not inferring anything. You flat out stated that believing anything supernatural forces us to believe in everything supernatural.

Please reread post 96. You keep bringing this up, its not what I said.

In a very real sense, the falleness of the world is not so much a punishment as it is a natural consequence of free will. God allowed humanity free will, and humanity chose to use that to sin. Sin entered the world, and screwed everything up. We now have death, disease, decay, war, strife, etc.

That's not what God intended, and the promise that God gives is that when things are finally set right, it will not be that way again.

I understand this in terms of the human race, i am trying to understand what happens to the individual who has no chance to be part of your religion.

[techboy]

Sometimes I just don't understand them, probably the same way you feel about most people. But I don't need God to tell me to behave that way or honor my wife, family, not to steal, kill, or what have you.

You don't need to believe in God to do those things, or be a good person.

You do, however, need God (in the generic, not specifically Christian sense), to be a good person, because without God, there is no "good" (or "evil", or "just", or what have you), even if you choose not to believe in Him.

---------- Post added May-31st-2011 at 09:25 AM ----------

Please reread post 96. You keep bringing this up, its not what I said.

I suggest we just drop it. There's clearly a lack of communication here.

I understand this in terms of the human race, i am trying to understand what happens to the individual who has no chance to be part of your religion.

The short version is I'm not sure. Here's a longer version I wrote earlier:

In one sense, this is actually kind of irrelevant, since anyone who is discussing the problem isn't affected by it. Such a person has heard the Gospel, and so must make a choice. But what does the Bible say about those who have not heard the gospel?

Nothing.

Nothing direct, anyway.

There is nothing Scriptural that I am aware of, for example, to support the idea that those who never hear will not be condemned.

There are several possible answers to this question, though.

In Romans 1 18-20 Paul says this:

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

In this, and other verses, the Bible says that all know God through His creation. So, one possible answer is that the person who has not heard, has, as Paul says, "no excuse". He should still seek God through the revelation of nature.

One theory is that just as many in the Old Testament were saved for their faith in the coming Messiah, these could be saved by their faith in God as revealed in their hearts and nature.

There are other theories, too, such as the idea that God will allow each unwitnessed-to person a chance to hear supernaturally, or perhaps something else entirely.

Another interesting scenario involves something called "Middle Knowledge", in which God, knowing beforehand who will and will not freely choose to follow Him, places those that will in the optimal positions to be saved. Under that scenario, of course, those who did not hear would be the ones that wouldn't choose to follow Him even if they had heard.

I'd note here, by the way, that this does not, as often thought, have some kind of bias towards the Western and Developed world. Christianity started in the East, and today, while Europe has moved to being largely secular, the largest areas of growth in Christianity are places like South America, Africa, and Asia.

In any case, the Bible makes no direct statement about it. Perhaps this is because it's not a practical situation, since as I noted earlier, anyone debating it is going to have heard. If God had put everything in the Bible, it'd be too big! (It's late, and I'm coming up blank on a ridiculous size analogy). I do think, though, that it would be irresponsible to answer more specifically, or with any definitive nature, on what happens to those who do not hear, because there's no specific Scripture that specifically deals with it.

There's just no way a Christian can honestly give a definitive Scriptural answer to the question.

What I do know with certainty, though, is that God is just, and whatever He does, none will have cause to complain.

Perhaps this is best summed up by Dallas Willard:

I’m not willing to be in a position of saying that one who has not heard of the historical Jesus cannot go to heaven. I’m not willing to say that Christ is not present as the Logos beyond Christian culture, because after all, John says, "This is the light that lights every man who comes into the world." That doesn’t mean they’re saved; it just means that nobody is beyond the reach of Christ. I am willing to say that no one will be saved without Christ. But Christ’s ways in reaching them are often beyond anything I understand.

[mardi gras skin]

Perhaps this is best summed up by Dallas Willard:

The entire article that excerpt comes from might be helpful given the range of topics hit on in this thread:

http://www.dwillard.org/articles/artview.asp?artID=53

I think this sentence from the article establishes a fairly accurate description of the human condition as a starting point for Burg's original question:

The reality is that people deeply desire to be good, but they are prepared to do evil, and to do it repeatedly.

_Dallas Willard

[rdsknbill]

[AsburySkinsFan]

OK, so the punishment for this corruption and sin is placed more heavily on the poorer nations than the richer nations. So the children born their suffer more because of it. OK, gotcha.

Why are some allowed to be born "normal" and some not? Why isn't the punishment spread fairly? Not even referring to nation to nation, what about in the same household. So the children are being punished for what other people did which they had no control over? Is that true for those who die in car accidents, or from tornadoes? Just curious.

Jesus answered it like this, Matthew 5:45 "for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous." You keep looking at the physical as the only representation of suffering and corruption of sin in this world, and that's where you have blinded yourself. Heck Jesus himself said, Matthew 19:24 "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." Where you miss the point is thinking that the corruption of sin is unevenly applied, when it's not, the corruption of sin is universally applied, it's just manifested in different ways.

I am not trying to give a false understanding of the Imago Dei. I posed the question regarding those born not "normal" to techboy and you both refuse to answer. Asking a question of you, the expert, shouldn't be a sin You should be able to answer the question without talking around it.

I have answered, it. You just don't like the answer.

Some humans get a chance to be part of your world, some don't because of not fault of their own. It's a shame some are born without a chance.

It is a shame, and that is because of the corruption of sin over all humanity.

[mcsluggo]

god made us in his image....

in my opinion what this means is that god gave humans self determination and self awareness (something that animals really don't have). We are god-like..... what we choose to do with this power is up to us, and determines the degree to which we sin.

[AsburySkinsFan]

So the point of being saved would be what ? All are corrupt, but as a poor example: The car thief is not as bad as the murderer ?

One is saved in this life and the next; in this life we are saved from our lives of brokenness to live as more holy with the gift of sanctification so that in this life we with the Spirit's power can live more closely to the way God intended us to live. We are also saved for the next life through the resurrection of the dead in Christ that we will live with God in the New Jerusalem. Spiritually the car thief is just as guilty as the murderer, and as the pastor, and as the pharmacist and as the kindergarten teacher, and as everyone else. Temporally speaking we find the car thief not as bad because of the consequences of their sin, but spiritually before the throne the unrepentant people all stand guilty before God.

To me that goes back to Adam and Eve not being perfect to begin with. Do I look at this as Farmville with humans instead of farm animals ?

I am seriously not trying to be funny here, just trying to simplify it for anyone else who is reading it.

I also do not believe that we are all related to Adam and Eve somewhere down the branch of our family tree.

"Adam and Eve" or first couple whatever, were created without the corruption of sin, the introduction of sin brought about the pain we know as death and suffering. As for not all coming from Adam and Eve, it would seem that the geneticists disagree with you since they are finding that humans came out of the same genetic pool.

Again, I would have to believe that God created man to begin with.

Don't get me wrong, I love most people and respect their beliefs. Sometimes I just don't understand them, probably the same way you feel about most people. But I don't need God to tell me to behave that way or honor my wife, family, not to steal, kill, or what have you.

To that I would say that it is precisely the grace of God in your life that tells you that it's wrong to kill, steal, and it is right to honor your wife and family, the fact that you recognize those things is proof of the existence of God's prevenient grace in your life.

---------- Post added May-31st-2011 at 12:06 PM ----------

I understand this in terms of the human race, i am trying to understand what happens to the individual who has no chance to be part of your religion.

We understand that God is gracious and for those who have never been reached with the message of the Gospel then they will be judged on how they lived with what they did know.

Romans 2:14-16 When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.

[Mickalino]

I have heard so many different interpretations from Christians about the statement "God made us in his image" and none of them have a strong enough substantiation to back it up, but I don't think it's a "make or break" issue with being a Christian anyway, so it is not worth worrying about or arguing about, and CERTAINLY not worth the impending 50 page thread about it.

[Fred Jones]

I'm not totally sure I understand your interpretation, but I get the impression you didn't follow where i was going, so I will elaborate :

As for your belief that a "loving God" could not possibly allow or send anyone to hell, I offer these analogies and descriptions :

If your father was like most fathers, then much like God, he loves you with a love that is beyond words. Yet as great as that love was, that incredible love does not mean that as a child, you could do anything you wanted without consequences.

A person in authority such as an earthly father, or God himself, both of whom possess incredible love, still must show discipline to those children he created, lest they wander off into self-imposed destruction. So, when you were a child, was it your father's fault if he told you not to go a certain path which would bring you torment, but you did it anyway, and suffered greatly ? Was the fact that you suffered those terrible circumstances an indication that your father didn't love you ? HA. Obviously not. It was his love that warned you about not going that path.

And apparently much of humanity was indeed headed for destruction and hell, despite having this loving God, or else God would not have needed to send his Son to die for their sins, in order to keep much of humanity from going to hell.

************One final note for the rest of the posters here who discount Christianity for its "supposed" outlandish stories in the Bible.

The truth is, God does not expect an unbeliever to believe in all of these stories. Jesus made it clear in the Gospels that unless a man become literally born again, spiritually on the inside, he will never be capable of grasping the things of the Kingdom of God. So there is really no point in attempting to understand all the miracles and what you guys call "fairy tales".

That's because God asks you to do one thing, and one thing ONLY - to accept Christs forgiveness, his Savior-ship, Lord-ship, basically everything that HE is, including His new life. And THEN he will give you the spiritual understanding on the inside to see how and why all of these other hard-to-believe aspects of the Bible are true. You must go the correct route in understanding those miracles - and that route MUST go through Jesus (which is why they call him The Way among other things) and not some other route people typically take, which is looking directly at the miracles/stories in your own logic and understanding. God will provide us the spiritual understanding to see things rightly, but as the book of Proverbs tells us time and time and time and time again, we must look in the right places, and look diligently and with a pure and honest heart. And He will show us and enlighten us.

The Bible makes it CRYSTAL CLEAR, that on Judgment Day, the Great Judge will be interested in ONE thing, and ONE thing ONLY - did you follow the truth through The Way, The Truth, and The Life, not whether you correctly analyzed all the "stories" in the Bible. So before you attempt to believe in the Virgin Birth, Feeding the 5000 with a few loaves and fish, etc, the only real question is, do you believe whether Jesus is the Son of God, and Saviour and Lord of the universe ? If you do, then every other issue you have wondered about will fall into place. ******

Again, I look at things differently. I will not quote the Bible or other religious documents. And remember, everything is energy.

Dolores North said "If you are on the path you are meant to be on, everything falls into place; the Universe is telling you that. If you are not on the right path, you will experience roadblocks all along the way, and this is also the Universe telling you to stop, look, and ask if this is where you are supposed to be"

Sickness/Illness/Chronic Pain/Ect.

Some comments to explain:

Illnesses are caused by many different reasons: unhealthy habits, unhealthy moods, lack of cleanliness, one’s thinking, and one’s choices. God will not interfere with your choices, even if the choice causes you pain and illnesses.

God is in every cell, in each chemical function, and of each mental function in the universe. Not one is a clone or a robot. Every person is a special free being, capable and able to make all choices. Each individual is free to create or destroy his physical life, time and again. A clean slate comes with each lifetime and a new chance to rectify your mistakes. All events and all actions become lessons, even illnesses. NOTE, even though God is in each cell and is a part of each function, He does not impose His will on you. This is called Love. Freedom to correct your wrong concepts or to find truth is yours. Freedom to choose and to make mistakes is yours.

Why is someone sick or ill or has a bad accident? The choice was made before birth. Why does a person choose to be born with handicaps? That is not for anyone to judge. There are certain lessons and goals which are decided on before birth. Then the soul decides which conditions would best help him learn these lessons. These are spiritual lessons, and it is difficult while on Earth to see the value of this learning.

If the accident was caused on purpose, then the perpetrator has to answer and rectify the damage which this choice caused (Karma). Nothing is left unnoticed or to chance. Every small event, word, thought, decision, or choice is noted by the spirit-self.

If there really is a God, why doesn’t God do a better job at helping us? Why do we get diseases? Why are children shot in school? Why do the bad guys get all the attention?

The most difficult challenges in life can really be blessings in disguise. They afford us opportunities to go deep within ourselves and discover our own light. Instead of asking helpless, rhetorical questions, making a spiritual choice takes the struggle out of a situation, helps us accept it for what it is, and teaches us the way to a solution.

But what about the people who appear harsh and cruel to their fellows, and yet seem healthy and happy? Why is there so much suffering in the world? Why should innocent people be made to suffer?

Answer - There is no such thing as innocent suffering. Because the onlooker is unable to see far enough back, or far enough forward along the road of the sufferer, the onlooker remains ignorant of the spiritual law at work behind the suffering.

The person could be suffering as the result of paying off karmic debt or simply learning a lesson. God also does not interfere in the decisions made at the soul level by your higher self.

The perfectly healthy person throughout their incarnation – more difficult to explain – but that person may not be working through the particular karma of a sick body in this incarnation. They be learning lessons and gaining valuable experience in a different way. Or, they are taking a life off and not advancing.

Nevertheless, the soul in its present life may be creating fresh karma, and it will be bound to meet in lives to come the result of seeds of selfishness, greed or carelessness sown today. That karma may show itself either in material or emotional suffering or, last of all, it will come out in physical suffering. When apparently incurable disease occurs, it means that a particular soul’s weakness is being eliminated through that final physical climax of experience.

No-one can run away from their life-experience/life lessons, regardless of how many times you try. For, again, and again and again you will be faced with the same cycle of experience until some weakness or defect is at last erased, some lesson learned.

Someone Commented on Miracles:

A miracle is an occurrence that takes place within the natural course of events and transcends physical laws as we know them. We do not have to believe in God for a miracle to happen. God is an all-encompassing loving force, and that loving energy, that spark of God, resides within each one of us. Everyone has an opportunity for a miracle, but we have to be open to receiving it.

And note, to be in a physical state is abnormal. When you are in a spiritual state, that is natural state. A state of pure energy on the soul plane where space and time do not exist. A place that man has no understanding of or comprehension of. Yet, we try and try and try to claim we do.

Decisions about birth and death are made on the soul level. It is not unusual that we are completely unaware of these choices on the physical level. We come into this world alone and we must leave alone.

As I said, I look at things differently. Provide a different point of veiw. We are each on our own journey for our own lessons. I also to not protend not to have my own struggles, my own judgements. The Ho'oponono guy said it best when he said "I would buy myself a big Chocolate Sundae if I went through an entire day and never once judeged someone." He said he has never bought his ice cream.

[Kosher Ham]

For a being that is supposed to be so loving, forgiving, and all that jazz...He seems like an egomaniac that borders on hypocrite.

[AsburySkinsFan]

For a being that is supposed to be so loving, forgiving, and all that jazz...He seems like an egomaniac that borders on hypocrite.

No, he's just a jealous God who rightly deserves our praise for He has set us free from our slavery to sin and death. Personally, I always love how those who want to take pop shots at God always start with the characiture that God is like Santa.

[Burgold]

No, he's just a jealous God who rightly deserves our praise for He has set us free from our slavery to sin and death. Personally, I always love how those who want to take pop shots at God always start with the characiture that God is like Santa.

The jealous/vain God thing never really rang true to me. It just seems odd that God would demand our adoration and constant praise. I can understand devotion, respect, and love... but sometimes, esp. in some of the services I've attended, the praise heaping gets just a little ridiculous. Maybe that's just a failing on my part. My family was never big on compliments and I often view an abundance of them with skepticism.

[Kosher Ham]

No, he's just a jealous God who rightly deserves our praise for He has set us free from our slavery to sin and death. Personally, I always love how those who want to take pop shots at God always start with the characiture that God is like Santa.

No pop shot intended or resemblance to Santa inplied. Why would God be jealous ? That makes zero sense. I am not a jealous man and feel that people that embrace jealousy are typically weak minded with a lack of confidence. God is supposedly without flaw. Jealousy is a flaw.

The jealous/vain God thing never really rang true to me. It just seems odd that God would demand our adoration and constant praise. I can understand devotion, respect, and love... but sometimes, esp. in some of the services I've attended, the praise heaping gets just a little ridiculous. Maybe that's just a failing on my part. My family was never big on compliments and I often view an abundance of them with skepticism.

Well stated J. I hate when people sweat me for the life I live and the things I have. God seems to have no humility. I grew up learning not to brag about the things you have but to appreciate them for what they are and not take them for granted because everyone is not as fortunate in their lives.

[DRSmith]

That only shows that you don't know what justice really is when it comes to sin.

---------- Post added May-31st-2011 at 07:16 AM ----------

.

Hoe does eternal suffering compare to 70 or 80 years of sin?

Seems from Adam onward death was enough of a punishment for creatures that were meant to live without sin and therefore no death

---------- Post added June-1st-2011 at 08:36 AM ----------

The jealous/vain God thing never really rang true to me. It just seems odd that God would demand our adoration and constant praise. I can understand devotion, respect, and love... but sometimes, esp. in some of the services I've attended, the praise heaping gets just a little ridiculous. Maybe that's just a failing on my part. My family was never big on compliments and I often view an abundance of them with skepticism.

The thing is God likened his relationship with Israel like to that between a husband and a wife

IF your wife was giving her love to another man, was going to him when she needed things and what you have asked her to not do the other man has asked her to do and she has done it then you too may get upset.

[Burgold]

Well stated J. I hate when people sweat me for the life I live and the things I have. God seems to have no humility. I grew up learning not to brag about the things you have but to appreciate them for what they are and not take them for granted because everyone is not as fortunate in their lives.

Oh, I don't mind the gratitude. No one makes it entirely by their own sweat. It's a big problem I have with some of the small government ideology. They seem to ignore all the direct and indirect help they've received to get where they are. We're very quick to count curses and not blessings. I could not be where I am today if the military, courts, and police didn't keep me safe. I wouldn't have time to do radio work if farmers and fisherman and truck drivers and grocers didn't stock shelves. If not for that free education, I certainly could not have achieved what I have today. So, I did not make it on my own steam even though I worked very hard and earned pretty much everything I have.

So, I don't mind being grateful to the U.S. or a diety or others for the conditions that I take for granted as well as the things given to me, but I still don't buy that God would be jealous, vain, or petty. Praise me or I smite thee... nah, I don't buy that. Believe in me above all else or you burn? Nah... that rings false. God knows me through my works and my intent. (thinks) uh oh, God knows how much time I waste on ES instead of being productive or doing good works. :paranoid:

[Kosher Ham]

I don't know how you went on this government tangent ??? We are one people with supposedly one God. The Gov't has nothing to do with that.