Report: Redskins front-runners for V. Young

[AKM311]

Most experts didn't know McNabb would start nearly every game with a slip on a bootleg. Theoretically he should have been a fit with his mobility but his footwork held him back.

No, his accuracy did.

[s0crates]

:beatdeadhorse:

[AKM311]

link? not doubting, just want to know who.

Google or follow twitter. They have all been posted there.

[darrelgreenie]

This could very well be the case.

I'm just throwing this out there too, but it isn't it also possible that Kyle has never been in the position to utilize a mobile QB, and therefore we don't exactly know his preferences? We all refer to Houston's offense as being the example of what Kyle wants to run here. But, perhaps the Houston offense would have looked quite different (and maybe more similar to Mike's Denver offense) had there been a more mobile QB in Houston than Schaub. I'm just saying, perhaps we don't necessarily know the exact type of offense Kyle prefers to run since we've only seen him operate with Schaub and McNabb/Grossman. Also to this point I think Kyle utilized a significant amount of bootlegs at the beginning of last season until McNabb's legs/mobility became an issue. Just throwing that out there.

I think you're taking a very wishful view of Kyle.

You're disregarding his tendencies based only on your speculation.

The one point that is undeniable is that in Kyle's ,pass run ratio,not only here but also Kyle pass-run ratio in Houston was 60-40 pass-run.

Without a heavy dose of the run (Mike Shanahan has been 50-50 career run-pass ration) to set up the bootleg/swap play-action passing game is much less effective.

In Mike's offense the pass and run work in sync and feed off each other.

Mike's playcall tendencies are more in keeping with a run based-play-action offense as opposed to Kyle who is rhythm passing guy.

Consequently Mike's running game was more diversified.

I posted about the differences I saw here:

I was saying earlier this thread that our run game playcalling under Kyle was very vanilla.

It basically consisted of inside zone, outside zone and stretch vs Mike's Denver WCO which was multidimensional not just inside-zone outside zone it had pulling, trapping, draws and the toss.

Below are some elements that were missing from Kyle's running game: Inside Trap/Draw

Another element missing: The Toss:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3HtvBdam5A

Some TD just fur scuz:

[LadySkinsFan]

Most experts didn't know McNabb would start nearly every game with a slip on a bootleg. Theoretically he should have been a fit with his mobility but his footwork held him back.

Maybe McNabb would have been better if he hadn't had to worry about being stepped on every play by his center.

[terrifNick21]

Maybe McNabb would have been better if he hadn't had to worry about being stepped on every play by his center.

Throwing passes into the ground has nothing to do with getting stepped on by his center every play. That's just an excuse to cover up McNabb's subpar season.

[pimpumd]

I think you're taking a very wishful view of Kyle.

You're disregarding his tendencies based only on your speculation.

The one point that is undeniable is that in Kyle's ,pass run ratio,not only here but also Kyle pass-run ratio in Houston was 60-40 pass-run.

Again though, Kyle's pass/run ratio has been based on what he's been given to work with. I'm not disregarding Kyle's "tendencies" because I'm saying we can't fully know his tendencies at this point due to the fact that we've only seen Kyle operate with immobile QBs.

It might be that the 60/40 pass-to-run ratio you mention is how Kyle uses immobile quarterbacks (Schaub, broken-down McNabb, Grossman). Your position that Kyle is going to continue with the same 60/40 ratio once he has a more mobile QB is also speculation. Perhaps with a more mobile QB Kyle's pass/run ratio would be different.

Without a heavy dose of the run (Mike Shanahan has been 50-50 career run-pass ration) to set up the bootleg/swap play-action passing game is much less effective.

In Mike's offense the pass and run work in sync and feed off each other.

Mike's playcall tendencies are more in keeping with a run based-play-action offense as opposed to Kyle who is rhythm passing guy.

Consequently Mike's running game was more diversified.

I agree. And if Kyle is given a more mobile QB, perhaps he will implement this heavy dose of run you're referring to in order to make the newly-available bootleg/swap play-action game more effective. That effective bootleg/swap play-action game has not been previously available to Kyle (with Schaub, broken-down McNabb, Grossman). Therefore, I think it's logical to speculate that if Kyle is given a QB that can implement that type of strategy (such as Vince Young), he will begin to utilize a more heavy dose of run in order to maximize that strategy (bootleg/swap play-action/etc.).

[BurgundyBlog]

For those that haven't seen them, here are two VY-related posts from my blog (both from last week) that drew a lot of attention from the Post and PFT.com:

A Case For Vince Young: http://burgundyblog.com/post/5367586151/vince

Reserving Judgment: http://burgundyblog.com/post/5392553434/vince

[grego]

Google or follow twitter. They have all been posted there.

i dont tweet, but i did find a blurb by moose about how vy fits perfectly with the redskins. interesting stuff.

[addicted]

Most experts thought McNabb was also a prefect fit for Mike Shanahan's offense.

Sadly I have to wonder if this is just tongue in cheek where these "experts" aren't wishing for us to just find another free agent failure or to see another player freak out against Mike Shannahan. I wouldn't ever put it past some of them

[KDawg]

I love your arguments. You have a lot of good points surrounded by cherry picked stats that don't take the actual game play into account. VY made 2 key mistakes and fumbled ones on a blitz. Given that if PITT wouldn't have ran a kickoff return the score would have been eventually 9-3 when VY went out of the game saying he put them in a hole is not really exaggerated but its a bit misleading. Pittsburgh scored 2 field goals in 3 quarters from these mistakes. Kerry Collins came in with 2 turnovers in only 2 possession. How do we measure the hole he put the Titans in?

I'm sorry that you don't like the fact that I'm criticising your hero. Collins came in and threw 25 times and led the team to a touchdown drive, that's a heck of a lot different than your claim that he came in with 2 turnovers in 2 possessions.

For the record, Collins stat line was 17/25 149 yards 1 TD, 1 INT, 2 Fumbles, 1 Lost. That totals two turnovers, so you're correct there.

Young's statline was 7/10 66 yards, 0 TD, 2 INT, 2 Fumbles, 1 Lost. That totals three turnovers.

Now let's look at the turnovers. Young's first pick came at the Steelers 16 yard line. They were in field goal range at minimum. That's points off the board. That's Vince helping to put them in a hole.

The second pick was once again in Pittsburgh territory on their 42 yard line.

He then lost a fumble at the TEN 42 on a sack by James Harrison.

Collins two turnovers were also costly. He lost a fumble at their own 20 yard line on a sack by Lamar Woodley. And he threw a pick from the TEN 29. I never claimed they weren't costly.

But Collins, seeing how he didn't play for the first three quarters, can't be held accountable for the team being in a hole. And to be fair, Young can't be held FULLY responsible. But to pretend like he wasn't at fault is crazy.

And I seem to get the sense that you think that I'm saying Collins is a better player. or I'm trying to champion Collins. I couldn't care any less about Kerry Collins, for the record.

Young helped put them in that hole, especially with the two picks he threw. Cherry picked my butt.

Without these 2 bad decisions VY is 5-6 for 66yds.

Without the two picks Vince Young was 5-6 for 66 yards? And I'm cherry picking? Since when can you take out passes that are a negative play? And where'd the other two passes go? 6+2 = 8. He threw ten passes.

With 5 min left in the game Collins threw about 15 passes and scored.

This, quoted by you, goes against your earlier claim of:

Kerry Collins came in with 2 turnovers in only 2 possession. How do we measure the hole he put the Titans in?

Kerry Collins game in and played even worst.

Again, I don't care about Collins. Bringing him up is still just being used to say that he wasn't at fault for this loss. He came in in relief when the starting pitcher was already in the hole. If this were baseball, the L would go to Young, not Collins. And for good reason.

Why wasn't VY put back in the game after Collins fumbled twice and threw an interception in only 2 possessions?

Uhh. I don't know?

He fumbled twice and threw a pick in 4 possessions. Not two.

He threw the pick. They got the ball back and punted. They got the ball back and he fumbled and lost it. They got the ball back, he fumbled and picked it back up and the drive continued. I have no idea where you keep pulling this two possession line from.

Collins was in the game for five possessions. Not two.

Kerry Collins comes in with 7 minutes in the hole that Young put them in. The tape shows that it was the defenses inability to stop the Chargers that put them in the hole.

Hi. I don't care about Collins. You keep arguing from the standpoint that I think Collins is a good QB. I don't. The argument is that Collins threw more 4th quarter passes because Young wasn't in the game due to injury or poor play. Nothing more, nothing less. You're arguing a point that isn't being made.

The next week the Titans played you guys. VY was 12-16 for 165. Sounds like a fairly good game to me. VY gets hurt on a 37 yd pass play for first down after a blitz. Its 1st and 10, Titans have the ball and the score is tied 13-13.

Where's the hole.

I didn't say anything about the Miami/Washington games. Not sure what you're arguing.

What I see is that though you say Young has some talent yet you give in little to no credit at all for winning the games that he's won. When they lose you give him all the credit.

I mean your pretty much saying Vince put them in holes and then Collins had to come in and throw a lot in the end.

Correct. I don't think he's that good. He's talented, and he has potential. But his play has been sub par. He won ROY with a 12 TD 13 INT year. He's the very definition of overrated (in my opinion).

You, on the other hand, appear to think he's God.

VY is the one that puts them in the hole.

He's a part of it. Absolutely.

[SpacePenguin]

Sadly I have to wonder if this is just tongue in cheek where these "experts" aren't wishing for us to just find another free agent failure or to see another player freak out against Mike Shannahan. I wouldn't ever put it past some of them

I think the motive is more to make news, which the Skins have been doing every offseason for a decade.

Although, the end result is the same regardless of the motive. The media in general, are pretty ill informed when it comes to the Redskins. I swear half of them act like Mike is the OC.

[addicted]

I think the motive is more to make news, which the Skins have been doing every offseason for a decade.

Although, the end result is the same regardless of the motive. The media in general, are pretty ill informed when it comes to the Redskins. I swear half of them act like Mike is the OC.

Your right about that

Ever wonder why in almost anything NFL they show Redskins plays, players, helmets, etc?

Because our fanbase is one of the most active in the league if not the top most active in the league. "If you build it they will come"...exchange the word build with write, post, blog, microblog, tweet, etc and that's all they do. It drives revenue to them writing about us. Problem is some of them have bias against us and want to see us fail.

[darrelgreenie]

Again though, Kyle's pass/run ratio has been based on what he's been given to work with. I'm not disregarding Kyle's "tendencies" because I'm saying we can't fully know his tendencies at this point due to the fact that we've only seen Kyle operate with immobile QBs.

It might be that the 60/40 pass-to-run ratio you mention is how Kyle uses immobile quarterbacks (Schaub, broken-down McNabb, Grossman). Your position that Kyle is going to continue with the same 60/40 ratio once he has a more mobile QB is also speculation. Perhaps with a more mobile QB Kyle's pass/run ratio would be different.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Also the notion that Matt Schaub isn't mobile enough to execute a standard bootleg or a zone stretch play action fake is an exxagerration.

Just because Schaub isn't elusive and doesn't scramble doesn't mean he can't execute movement based play action.

Like with any modern NFL offense the bootleg passing game was a part of Kyle's offense last year and his years in Houston.

But, for Mike its much more then a part of the offense its the staple of the offense rather then just an elememnt of the offense.

After 3 years of 60-40(or worse) pass-run ratio; I believe you are what the numbers say.

Guys like Reid, McDaniels, Martz etc and Kyle call more pass more because that's how they call plays.

I don't see why the immobility or lack of immobility would or should greatly effect the pass-run ratio?

You don't need a mobile QB to call more run plays, you just need to call more run plays.

I agree. And if Kyle is given a more mobile QB, perhaps he will implement this heavy dose of run you're referring to in order to make the newly-available bootleg/swap play-action game more effective.

I don't follow your logic here because I don't see how the type of QBs stops him from calling more run plays nor why it would prevent him from running a more diversified running game.

Kyle's vanilla running game imo was a major part of the problem.

That effective bootleg/swap play-action game has not been previously available to Kyle (with Schaub, broken-down McNabb, Grossman).

The key component of any play action offense is the run and boot/swap is a play action passing offense.

Kyle's playcalling is not reflective of someone committed to running the ball.

The lack of a running game imo is the main compenent that limits the effectiveness of the boot/swap or any play action offense.

(And no you don't have to be effective running the ball for play action to work.

Often times it even works better when the defense is doing a good job stopping the run.)

Therefore, I think it's logical to speculate that if Kyle is given a QB that can implement that type of strategy (such as Vince Young), he will begin to utilize a more heavy dose of run in order to maximize that strategy (bootleg/swap play-action/etc.).

I guess we disagree.

I don't see why he would suddenly call more runs.

Nothing was stopping him from calling more runs before.

But, I agree that if VY comes here we would and should expect a paradigm shift in the offense.

I'm just doubtful it will come from Kyle, but we can all hope.

But hope is not a strategy.

Although I know VY could fit in Mike's traditional run balanced Denver WCO; Kyle doesn't run that offense.

Kyle's is more of straight drop with a heavy focus on rhythm based passing.

It just makes more sense to get a QB that fits Kyle's offense as is without changes.

[MusicCitySkin]

Cult of Colt v. 2.0

[AKM311]

i dont tweet, but i did find a blurb by moose about how vy fits perfectly with the redskins. interesting stuff.

I don't tweet either. But I follow them. You get some really interesting nuggets and articles not usually on ES.

[The Tris]

Theoretically he should have been a fit with his mobility but his footwork held him back.

Theoretically being a fit is all VY has going as well. Until we see him in this offense, and until we see if he has finally accepted the responsibilities and necessary maturity to be an NFL QB, all we have is theoreticals.

You can play the theoretical game with VY as easily as you now can play it with McNabb -

Theoretically Young should be a fit with his mobility but his inability to make pre-snap reads held him back...

Theoretically Young should be a fit with his athleticism but his inaccuracy in the short passing game held him back...

Theoretically Young should be a fit as he is a "winner" but his lack of maturity held him back...

And Dro, your gifs are a cute way of deflecting from a point you are unable to argue against. For those doubting the "experts" opinion on McNabb's fit in our offense, here is one such opinion:

McNabb's a great fit: As great as Donovan McNabb was as Andy Reid's quarterback since 1999, he actually might be a better fit in Shanahan's offense. Reid runs a pure West Coast offense based on timing and precision. McNabb mastered the offense by forcing himself to throw out of disciplined three-step drops. Shanahan has taken his version of the West Coast offense in a different direction since his days as 49ers offensive coordinator. Pressed to describe the differences between the two styles, McNabb couldn't label the Redskins' offense purely West Coast. The new Redskins system fits McNabb because of his athleticism. It's more five- and seven-step drops. It's more play-action because Shanahan makes more of a commitment to run the ball. Wide receiver Santana Moss loves the fit of McNabb in the system because the quarterback always has been able to buy time with his feet. Shanahan loves how accurately McNabb is throwing the ball. Remember, Shanahan has won with Brian Griese and Jake Plummer. McNabb might not be John Elway, but his arm is still strong and he has shown great leadership. Instead of being a throwing machine, McNabb can thrive as a playmaker for the Redskins.

This is almost line for line what the "experts" are now saying about VY.

[Dr Drunkenstein]

Theoretically Young should be a fit as he is a "winner" but his lack of maturity held him back...

This crap is just so unfair. Think about all of the young QBs who have performed well in the last half decade or so......Big Ben, McCoy, Matt Ryan, Bradford, etc.....how many of these guys would have had anywhere near the same success if THEY HAD THE ENTIRE COACHING STAFF WORKING AGAINST THEM? How "mature" would these guys look if the coaches were saying publicly, ON DRAFT DAY, that they weren't wanted by the staff but the GM forced the pick? How many of those guy could win R.O.Y. and go to 2 pro bowls and have the best winning % in the history of their team under those circumstances? How would these guys react if the only reason they got to play is because THE OWNER HAD TO THREATEN TO FIRE THE COACH TO GET THEM ON THE FIELD?

Quit comparing VY to the norm in terms of maturity and production. It isn't fair. This baseline of expectations you have for how an NFL QB should behave and perform is all based on EVERYONE with an organization doing EVERYTHING they can to make sure their young QB succeeds. VY never had that in Tennessee!

Judge Vince relative to his circumstances and the guy is a hero.

[The Tris]

how many of these guys would have had anywhere near the same success if THEY HAD THE ENTIRE COACHING STAFF WORKING AGAINST THEM?

Whether on not Fisher wanted Young on draft day (this has never been publicly confirmed by Fisher), he took many steps to make the Young tenure work out.

In 2007, he listened to VY's desire to fire Norm Chow and hired an OC that Young apporved and was excited to work with. He made coaching hire for the sole purpose of assisting and satisfying VY.

If Fisher was really out to get Young, why did he repeatedly defend him in the post game press conference following the first game of the 2008, where multiple teammate's indicated that Vince quit on the team, but Fisher stuck up for him and insisted five straight times that Vince never attempt to quit.

How "mature" would these guys look if the coaches were saying publicly, ON DRAFT DAY, that they weren't wanted by the staff but the GM forced the pick?

You think Young is the first player in the history of the NFL that a FO has disagreed on? Hell, the Titan's were heavily divided THIS year on which QB to pick, so how on earth is Jake Locker going to succeed. Surely he is doomed for failure because not everyone was behind him 100% and coddling him as every draft pick should be! Please. Fisher may not have wanted VY initially, but had Vince been a mature leader, he would have supported him far more than he did considering Young's long list of issues - every benching Young got, he earned.

By the way, it is far more likely that the biggest anti-VY individual was Norm Chow (AKA Leinart's former OC) and that his protests far out weighed Fisher's. But that doesn't fit your rhetoric that it was VY against the world.

Quit comparing VY to the norm in terms of maturity and production. It isn't fair.

You're right, it isn't fair. Vince Young has displayed far more immaturity from the QB position than any player in recent memory save JaMarcus Russell. He should be held to a different standard.

Judge Vince relative to his circumstances and the guy is a hero.

A hero? I guy who quits multiple times on his teammates? A guy who threatens to retire and threatens to commit suicide? All because he feels slighted by his coaching staff?

I can't wait to see what he does when Shanahan benches him for the first time. Oh that's right, Shanahan is never allowed to bench Young if he comes here, because he needs "100% commitment" at all times. Basically, the only way VY can succeed is if he is handed the job with no questions and given complete any total security, lest his fragile psyche be damaged by a mean ole coach.

By the way, Mike Shanahan has benched every QB he has coached save Jay Cutler (and I guess Rex Grossman). That list includes Donovan McNabb, Jake Plummer, Brian Griese, Bubby Brister, and yes, even John Elway (who he benched 4 seperate times). Odds are pretty good that Shanahan will bench Young at some point. Will that be considered a lack of commitment in Young's mind, as it has been throughout his career?

And how might Young respond to that? He certainly has not shown he has learned to better handle it through the years.

[royallypwned]

The Skins are always looking for Texans to help them along.

[pimpumd]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Also the notion that Matt Schaub isn't mobile enough to execute a standard bootleg or a zone stretch play action fake is an exxagerration.

Just because Schaub isn't elusive and doesn't scramble doesn't mean he can't execute movement based play action.

Like with any modern NFL offense the bootleg passing game was a part of Kyle's offense last year and his years in Houston.

But, for Mike its much more then a part of the offense its the staple of the offense rather then just an elememnt of the offense.

After 3 years of 60-40(or worse) pass-run ratio; I believe you are what the numbers say.

Guys like Reid, McDaniels, Martz etc and Kyle call more pass more because that's how they call plays.

I don't see why the immobility or lack of immobility would or should greatly effect the pass-run ratio?

You don't need a mobile QB to call more run plays, you just need to call more run plays.

I guess we do disagree. If you noticed last year, Kyle called a good amount of bootlegs early in the season until McNabb fell apart. That clearly shows that Kyle is willing to call those types of plays if he has the QB to do it. I never said Schaub could not run a bootleg, but let's not kid ourselves in saying Schaub is on par with Plummer/Elway/Cutler that Mike's play was molded for in Denver.

I don't follow your logic here because I don't see how the type of QBs stops him from calling more run plays nor why it would prevent him from running a more diversified running game.

Kyle's vanilla running game imo was a major part of the problem.

You said yourself that Mike's offense (which utilized more mobile QBs) required a large dose of run to set up the bootleg/swap play action game. Perhaps if Kyle has a mobile QB he will run an offense more in line with what his dad ran in Denver, therefore requiring a larger dose of run. I think that makes sense.

The key component of any play action offense is the run and boot/swap is a play action passing offense.

Kyle's playcalling is not reflective of someone committed to running the ball.

The lack of a running game imo is the main compenent that limits the effectiveness of the boot/swap or any play action offense.

(And no you don't have to be effective running the ball for play action to work.

Often times it even works better when the defense is doing a good job stopping the run.)

Well, IMO, in order to run an effective boot/swap play action game you need a QB that can get to the edge quickly, make the appropriate read, and be accurate. While Schaub can make good reads and is accurate, I don't think you can say he would be consistent at quickly getting to the edge on boot action plays. You say Kyle does not run the ball that much and the lack of that running game affects the boot/swap play action game. I say, since Kyle was not utilizing a heavy boot/swap play action game (in Houston or after McNabb broke down in Washington), there hasn't been a need for Kyle to run the ball to set up that type of play action. I'm just saying, maybe if he's given a legitimate mobile QB, you'll see him start to run the ball more to set up the newly-available boot/swap play action game. Just my opinion though.

I guess we disagree.

I don't see why he would suddenly call more runs.

Nothing was stopping him from calling more runs before.

But, I agree that if VY comes here we would and should expect a paradigm shift in the offense.

I'm just doubtful it will come from Kyle, but we can all hope.

But hope is not a strategy.

Although I know VY could fit in Mike's traditional run balanced Denver WCO; Kyle doesn't run that offense.

Kyle's is more of straight drop with a heavy focus on rhythm based passing.

It just makes more sense to get a QB that fits Kyle's offense as is without changes.

I think you have said that the run game is needed to effectively set up a boot/swap play action passing game. If that is true, you don't see why Kyle would run the ball more to set up that type of play action once he finally has a legitimately mobile QB? I guess we do simply disagree then.

[terpskins10]

This thread reminds me more and more of the CofC every day. It's always the staff holding the player back, not the player holding himself back.

[lookin4ahomeTexan]

I'm sorry that you don't like the fact that I'm criticising your hero. Collins came in and threw 25 times and led the team to a touchdown drive, that's a heck of a lot different than your claim that he came in with 2 turnovers in 2 possessions.

See that's exactly what I mean. If you watch the game you know that when Collins game in in the 4th quarter he fumbled the ball on his second play but they got it back. After getting 1 first down he throw an interception. Then on the next series he fumbled again and the same person that intercepted the pass recovered the fumble. Stats are good but sometime they don't match what the tape says.

Tape don't lie.

And that drive started with 3:59 left in the game in a 2 minute offense. You can criticize him all you want. I do the same. He haven't already, he needs to grow his butt up.

But your cherry picking and glossing over his contribution to the team. Saying he helped in the run game and pretty much nothing else is basically the same as saying he sucks and he hasn't done anything in the NFL.

[KDawg]

See that's exactly what I mean. If you watch the game you know that when Collins game in in the 4th quarter he fumbled the ball on his second play but they got it back.

I said he fumbled... twice actually, in the post you're quoting.

After getting 1 first down he throw an interception. Then on the next series he fumbled again and the same person that intercepted the pass recovered the fumble. Stats are good but sometime they don't match what the tape says.

I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Collins first drive

3-J.Reed kicks 64 yards from PIT 30 to TEN 6. 83-M.Mariani to TEN 29 for 23 yards (84-A.Brown).

1-10-TEN 29 (14:49) 5-K.Collins pass short middle to 28-C.Johnson to TEN 30 for 1 yard (57-K.Fox).

2-9-TEN 30 (14:17) 5-K.Collins pass short left to 88-C.Stevens to TEN 39 for 9 yards (50-L.Foote).

1-10-TEN 39 (13:44) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete deep right to 85-N.Washington.

2-10-TEN 39 (13:39) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins Aborted. 54-E.Amano FUMBLES at TEN 39, recovered by TEN-5-K.Collins at TEN 29. 5-K.Collins to TEN 29 for no gain (43-T.Polamalu).

3-20-TEN 29 (13:05) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass deep right intended for 85-N.Washington INTERCEPTED by 20-B.McFadden at PIT 46. 20-B.McFadden to PIT 46 for no gain (85-N.Washington).

Collins second Drive:

1-10-TEN 20 (10:47) 28-C.Johnson right end to TEN 21 for 1 yard (92-J.Harrison).

2-9-TEN 21 (10:08) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short right. PENALTY on TEN-5-K.Collins, Intentional Grounding, 15 yards, enforced at TEN 21.

3-24-TEN 6 (10:03) (Shotgun) PENALTY on TEN-18-K.Britt, False Start, 3 yards, enforced at TEN 6 - No Play.

3-27-TEN 3 (10:03) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass short left to 12-J.Gage to TEN 21 for 18 yards (25-R.Clark).

4-9-TEN 21 (9:24) (Punt formation) 6-B.Kern punts 42 yards to PIT 37, Center-58-K.Amato. 82-A.Randle El to PIT 44 for 7 yards (58-K.Amato).

Collins 3rd Drive:

1-10-TEN 20 (6:42) 5-K.Collins sacked at TEN 15 for -5 yards (56-L.Woodley). FUMBLES (56-L.Woodley), RECOVERED by PIT-76-C.Hoke at TEN 15. 76-C.Hoke to TEN 15 for no gain (73-J.Scott). Tennessee challenged the fumble ruling, and the play was Upheld. (Timeout #1 at 06:32.)

Collins 4th Drive:

3-J.Reed kicks 69 yards from PIT 30 to TEN 1. 83-M.Mariani to TEN 15 for 14 yards (37-A.Madison, 29-R.Mundy).

1-10-TEN 15 (4:51) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass short right to 85-N.Washington to TEN 22 for 7 yards (94-L.Timmons, 43-T.Polamalu).

2-3-TEN 22 (4:32) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 5-K.Collins sacked at TEN 13 for -9 yards (99-B.Keisel). FUMBLES (99-B.Keisel) [99-B.Keisel], recovered by TEN-89-J.Cook at TEN 16. 89-J.Cook to TEN 24 for 8 yards (94-L.Timmons).

WATCH HIGHLIGHT

3-1-TEN 24 (4:03) 5-K.Collins pass short middle to 28-C.Johnson to TEN 25 for 1 yard (92-J.Harrison).

1-10-TEN 25 (3:40) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass deep right to 85-N.Washington to TEN 45 for 20 yards (25-R.Clark).

1-10-TEN 45 (3:15) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass short right to 89-J.Cook to 50 for 5 yards (94-L.Timmons).

2-5- (2:44) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass short left to 18-K.Britt to PIT 39 for 11 yards (24-I.Taylor). Penalty on PIT, Defensive 12 On-field, declined.

1-10-PIT 39 (2:39) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short right to 85-N.Washington.

2-10-PIT 39 (2:36) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass short left to 18-K.Britt pushed ob at PIT 30 for 9 yards (24-I.Taylor).

3-1-PIT 30 (2:31) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short left to 18-K.Britt.

4-1-PIT 30 (2:26) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass short right to 85-N.Washington to PIT 25 for 5 yards (20-B.McFadden).

1-10-PIT 25 (2:03) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass short left to 18-K.Britt to PIT 14 for 11 yards (94-L.Timmons).

Two-Minute Warning

1-10-PIT 14 (1:59) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass short middle to 18-K.Britt to PIT 7 for 7 yards (56-L.Woodley, 24-I.Taylor).

2-3-PIT 7 (1:36) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete short left to 18-K.Britt.

3-3-PIT 7 (1:32) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass short right to 80-B.Scaife to PIT 1 for 6 yards (25-R.Clark).

1-1-PIT 1 (1:13) 5-K.Collins up the middle to PIT 2 for -1 yards (43-T.Polamalu).

WATCH HIGHLIGHT

Timeout #2 by TEN at 01:09.

2-2-PIT 2 (1:09) 28-C.Johnson left end to PIT 2 for no gain (94-L.Timmons).

Timeout #3 by TEN at 01:03.

3-2-PIT 2 (1:03) 5-K.Collins pass short right to 85-N.Washington for 2 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

WATCH HIGHLIGHT

TWO-POINT CONVERSION ATTEMPT. 5-K.Collins pass to 18-K.Britt is complete. ATTEMPT SUCCEEDS.

WATCH HIGHLIGHT

PIT 19 TEN 11 Plays: 17 Possession: 4:01

Collins 5th Drive:

Tennessee Titans at 00:58

(Onside Kick formation) 2-R.Bironas kicks onside 2 yards from TEN 30 to TEN 32. RECOVERED by TEN-56-C.Allred.

1-10-TEN 32 (:56) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass short right to 80-B.Scaife to TEN 39 for 7 yards (92-J.Harrison, 94-L.Timmons).

2-3-TEN 39 (:37) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass deep left to 12-J.Gage to PIT 31 for 30 yards (24-I.Taylor).

WATCH HIGHLIGHT

1-10-PIT 31 (:20) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 5-K.Collins spiked the ball to stop the clock.

2-10-PIT 31 (:20) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass incomplete deep right to 85-N.Washington (20-B.McFadden).

3-10-PIT 31 (:13) (Shotgun) PENALTY on TEN-64-L.Harris, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at PIT 31 - No Play.

3-15-PIT 36 (:13) (Shotgun) PENALTY on TEN-80-B.Scaife, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at PIT 36 - No Play.

3-20-PIT 41 (:13) (Shotgun) 5-K.Collins pass short middle to 28-C.Johnson to PIT 41 for no gain (94-L.Timmons).

END GAME

PIT 19 TEN 11 Plays: 5 Possession: 0:58

In order his possessions were:

Pick

Punt

Fumble (Lost)

Fumble (Recovered) TOUCHDOWN

Time Runs Out

What kind of 'tape' are you watching that makes five drives turn into two?

For the record, I posted his statline... I said he was 17/25 for 149 Yards, 1 TD, 1 INT, 2 FUMBLES, 1 LOST...

That matches exactly what I posted above... And exactly what you're trying to argue with me about...

You're reaching for silly things to argue rather than debate the actual points.

Oh, and for the last time, you're arguing with me about Collins. This isn't about Collins. This is about Young.

But your cherry picking and glossing over his contribution to the team. Saying he helped in the run game and pretty much nothing else is basically the same as saying he sucks and he hasn't done anything in the NFL.

Again, I'm not cherry picking anything. You keep trying to, though.

[lookin4ahomeTexan]

This crap is just so unfair. Think about all of the young QBs who have performed well in the last half decade or so......Big Ben, McCoy, Matt Ryan, Bradford, etc.....how many of these guys would have had anywhere near the same success if THEY HAD THE ENTIRE COACHING STAFF WORKING AGAINST THEM? How "mature" would these guys look if the coaches were saying publicly, ON DRAFT DAY, that they weren't wanted by the staff but the GM forced the pick? How many of those guy could win R.O.Y. and go to 2 pro bowls and have the best winning % in the history of their team under those circumstances? How would these guys react if the only reason they got to play is because THE OWNER HAD TO THREATEN TO FIRE THE COACH TO GET THEM ON THE FIELD?

Quit comparing VY to the norm in terms of maturity and production. It isn't fair. This baseline of expectations you have for how an NFL QB should behave and perform is all based on EVERYONE with an organization doing EVERYTHING they can to make sure their young QB succeeds. VY never had that in Tennessee!

Judge Vince relative to his circumstances and the guy is a hero.

That's all gonna fall on deaf ears buddy. VY gets no credited for nothing. Even when I pointed out that the only offensive player that is still even in the league that VY played with when he won the Rookie of the Year award is Bo Scaife. EVERY SINGLE OTHER PLAYER IS OUT OF THE LEAGUE AND SOME HAVE BEEN FOR 2 OR MORE YEARS.

I mean sometimes they don't even give him credit for winning it that year. They believe he won because UT fans voted for him.

---------- Post added May-16th-2011 at 10:24 AM ----------

I said he fumbled... twice actually, in the post you're quoting.

I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Collins first drive

Collins second Drive:

Collins 3rd Drive:

Collins 4th Drive:

Collins 5th Drive:

In order his possessions were:

Pick

Punt

Fumble (Lost)

Fumble (Recovered) TOUCHDOWN

Time Runs Out

What kind of 'tape' are you watching that makes five drives turn into two?

For the record, I posted his statline... I said he was 17/25 for 149 Yards, 1 TD, 1 INT, 2 FUMBLES, 1 LOST...

That matches exactly what I posted above... And exactly what you're trying to argue with me about...

You're reaching for silly things to argue rather than debate the actual points.

Oh, and for the last time, you're arguing with me about Collins. This isn't about Collins. This is about Young.

Again, I'm not cherry picking anything. You keep trying to, though.

Ok what I remember as the second drive was the 3rd drive. I said if you didn't read right He came in the game in 2 possessions and lost both with a pick and a fumble. Big deal now its 3.

My point is he Young turned the ball over 3 times in 3 quarters, Collins turned the ball over twice in 2 possessions. Which I see I was wrong and am clarifying it was 3 possessions.

And ultimately the point is why does Vince get pulled after 3 quarters of bad play and it takes Collins 6 whole games of bad play to get pulled?