Report: Redskins front-runners for V. Young

[Bat~man]

Well I do disagree with the work ethic/attitude, it may have been that way in the past,

put as LL56 has mentioned numerous times, he does appear to be maturing both

on the field, and off the field.

Here is a video from NFL, and it does show he is working out, during the lockout, with no idea what team

he will be playing for, to me that shows some spirit for the game.

More talk on NFL network http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-networ...e=HP_headlines

Maturing on and off the field? This year he was benched and is about to be released by the team who drafted him so high, even AFTER Fisher left.

Working out now doesn't mean anything. He better be working out if he wants to play somewhere. There is a big difference in working out the way you want to and doing the things required to be a great QB. That means watching film out the yank, doing not only what you want to, but also what you're told to do by your coaches. Titans had 2 headcases.. we already inherited one.. don't want the other one too.

[lookin4ahomeTexan]

I'm going to post my entire thought on Young in this post, so everyone can see it so everyone stops picking pieces out of what I say and trying to run with it.

I don't think the Titans won more games because of Young. The impact Young has on a running game would be much more important if he was more of a threat throwing the football. Teams could stack the box to defend against CJ and Young because a) Young isn't the best passer in the league and because Young's receivers quite frankly stunk.

You know why he hit so many deep balls, or threw so many? Teams stacked the box and played run first. With Collins, who teams knew was more of a passing threat, teams played more coverage based defenses. This allowed CJs yards per carry to be higher with Collins in. Yet the team still lost games. Why? Because they had no business throwing the football. For the record, I don't believe Collins threw the ball better than Young. At this stage of his career he's pretty much cooked. I do, and will continue to believe, that Jeff Fisher didn't trust Vince Young due to enormous mental nstability issues, a low wonderlic and a poor work ethic

Enter Young. Teams believed his biggest impact would be made with his legs. So they stacked the box and defended the run and dared the Titans to pass. My theory is Fisher knew that teams would do that, and in conjunction with his mistrust in Young, they switched to a run heavy offensive strategy. CJs YPC went down. Why? Because the box was stacked. Young threw 156 passes in 2010 and 35 of them were deep balls. Safeties were playing up to stop the run, and this allowed Young to go deep. This is an encouraging aspect of his game.

I believe that CJ would have had more success running the ball with Collins in. Why? Because he was more of a threat to pass based on reputation. You all contend that Young's ability to run helped CJ. I disagree. Again, why? Because Vince isn't as big a threat to throw the ball and teams know his reputation for work ethic.

Now let's look at the Redskins with Young. We have a worse offensive line, a worse receiving corps. And a worse running game. So now were going to ask Young, who given the right circumstances could be a heck of a player (something I've said in this thread several time that people choose to ignore) to throw the ball in a 60/40 offense. That's not where he's going to excel. Kyle/mike would have to change the philosophy for him to fit. Wed need to run more than pass. I dont see it happening. Stats show Vince was weak when the Titans relied on his arm, and it will be no different with a worse supporting cast (at least in the beginning. Our young guys need time to grow and the team will need time to gel).

Couple that with his Mental issues and a rabid fan base and he is not a fit in DC.

He's not a bad QB, but he's not as good as a lot of you think he is, either. He's a decent QB with some ability to grow and an excellent athlete with mental problems.

So can people stop saying I refuse to acknowledge anything positive about the guy? It's far from the truth. I dnt see positive in him coming here. But if he is here I'll be cheering right next to the VY cheer squad. I dint want him to fail, I just think he will. Big time difference. If he comes here I hope he wins the Super Bowl and I'll gladly say I was wrong.

You've made some valid points throughout. I just disagree with you the level of Young's passing ability. With that said I want you to look at this.

2006 played 15gs/started 13. Finish the year. 184comp- 357att 2199 yds passing, 51.5 comp %, 12tds/13ints. Rushed for 552yds and 7tds.

Won the rookie of the year and made the pro bowl.

HB-Travis Henry-1221yds HB-Lendale White-244 yds.

WR-Drew Bennett-46r-737yds WR-Brandon Jones-27r-384yds WR-David Givens-8r-104yds TE-Bo Scaife-29r-370yds

8-8 with a 32nd ranked defensive.

White/Jones/Scaife combined for a total of 998 yds in 09-10. 758 coming from Scaife. The other gentlemen have been out of the league since as late as 2008.

So he's no where better than he was when he played in 2006?

The offensive weapons you have now are not better than the weapons he had then?

And now save for Bo Scaife going into 2011 every other offensive weapon he played with then is has no present future in the NFL.

Wow!!

---------- Post added May-12th-2011 at 02:39 PM ----------

Come on man look at his weapons when he won the ROY.

All but one is out of the league and most have been out for 2 to 3 years.

That's why he won because he had no help at all!

To say you don't see positive to him being with your team is delusional man! Come on.

---------- Post added May-12th-2011 at 02:52 PM ----------

On the point of passing. He started out throwing with way more attempts than 156. He started out avg 23 passes a game.

Bottom line is your picking and choosing what to look at in his career.

Even if everything is true. He managed an 8-8 season after his team was 0-6.

He started another season atop the leader board in rating, and td/int ratio.

Even being a mental case he shows positives!

Just say you don't want a mental case and you will win the argument.

All this other stuff is just cherry picking crap.

[VYFan]

A lot has been made about Fisher "hiding" Vince, due to the difference in rushing and passing attempts w/ Kerry and Vince.

I and others have suggested that this difference could be a result of leading more games with Vince.

I went through ESPN's play by play logs and looked at only the 1st quarters for 2010. Here's what I found (the QB runs appeared to be designed runs according to their logs):

Vince: 45 runs, 2 QB runs, 49 passes+sacks, out of 96 plays

Kerry: 44 runs, 1 QB run, 54 passes+sacks, out of 99 plays

If you count designed runs as showing trust in your QB it works out to 53% "trust plays" for Vince and 56% "trust plays" for Kerry. If you'd rather throw out the designed runs, you get 51% passes for Vince and 55% passes for Kerry.

Going a step further, Vince threw 156 passes in 2010, while Kerry threw 278, meaning Vince threw around 30% of his attempts in the 1st quarter while Kerry threw less than 20%. Sacks might skew this number a bit, but it should be roughly accurate.

All of these number of course are rough, since I simply counted plays off of the play by play. And of course this is a VERY rough and dirty way to test Fisher's trust. A better evaluation would account for time, down and distance, and score, larger sample, smarter analyst, ect. Fisher also went pass happy/wacky in the 1st quarters of the last 2 games of the season.

So while Kerry did throw more than Vince in the 1st quarter, the large difference that's been thrown around can mostly be attributed to attempts later in the game.

Furthermore, Kerry threw 6 more times in 3 more plays which isn't all that much over the course of a season.

I would argue that this is consistent with the thesis that Vince's fewer attempts, CJ's increased attempts, and CJ's decreased ypc can be attributed to the Titans leading more games with Vince, and therefore burning more clock.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

A lot has been made about Fisher "hiding" Vince, due to the difference in rushing and passing attempts w/ Kerry and Vince.

I and others have suggested that this difference could be a result of leading more games with Vince.

I went through ESPN's play by play logs and looked at only the 1st quarters for 2010. Here's what I found (the QB runs appeared to be designed runs according to their logs):

Vince: 45 runs, 2 QB runs, 49 passes+sacks, out of 96 plays

Kerry: 44 runs, 1 QB run, 54 passes+sacks, out of 99 plays

If you count designed runs as showing trust in your QB it works out to 53% "trust plays" for Vince and 56% "trust plays" for Kerry. If you'd rather throw out the designed runs, you get 51% passes for Vince and 55% passes for Kerry.

Going a step further, Vince threw 156 passes in 2010, while Kerry threw 278, meaning Vince threw around 30% of his attempts in the 1st quarter while Kerry threw less than 20%. Sacks might skew this number a bit, but it should be roughly accurate.

All of these number of course are rough, since I simply counted plays off of the play by play. And of course this is a VERY rough and dirty way to test Fisher's trust. A better evaluation would account for time, down and distance, and score, larger sample, smarter analyst, ect. Fisher also went pass happy/wacky in the 1st quarters of the last 2 games of the season.

So while Kerry did throw more than Vince in the 1st quarter, the large difference that's been thrown around can mostly be attributed to attempts later in the game.

Furthermore, Kerry threw 6 more times in 3 more plays which isn't all that much over the course of a season.

I would argue that this is consistent with the thesis that Vince's fewer attempts, CJ's increased attempts, and CJ's decreased ypc can be attributed to the Titans leading more games with Vince, and therefore burning more clock.

Interesting analysis, unfortunately you leave more questions than answers.

I also don't really expect you to answer those questions that you yourself raised, since that would be incredibly time consuming. If you did it though, I'd be very impressed with your dedication.

[VYFan]

Interesting analysis, unfortunately you leave more questions than answers.

I also don't really expect you to answer those questions that you yourself raised, since that would be incredibly time consuming. If you did it though, I'd be very impressed with your dedication.

I don't think I'm smart enough to work out those answers. I can see it turning into a huge question. I hope at least I've provided some perspective on the idea that "Fisher didn't trust Vince."

[Lavarleap56]

A lot has been made about Fisher "hiding" Vince, due to the difference in rushing and passing attempts w/ Kerry and Vince.

I and others have suggested that this difference could be a result of leading more games with Vince.

I went through ESPN's play by play logs and looked at only the 1st quarters for 2010. Here's what I found (the QB runs appeared to be designed runs according to their logs):

Vince: 45 runs, 2 QB runs, 49 passes+sacks, out of 96 plays

Kerry: 44 runs, 1 QB run, 54 passes+sacks, out of 99 plays

If you count designed runs as showing trust in your QB it works out to 53% "trust plays" for Vince and 56% "trust plays" for Kerry. If you'd rather throw out the designed runs, you get 51% passes for Vince and 55% passes for Kerry.

Going a step further, Vince threw 156 passes in 2010, while Kerry threw 278, meaning Vince threw around 30% of his attempts in the 1st quarter while Kerry threw less than 20%. Sacks might skew this number a bit, but it should be roughly accurate.

All of these number of course are rough, since I simply counted plays off of the play by play. And of course this is a VERY rough and dirty way to test Fisher's trust. A better evaluation would account for time, down and distance, and score, larger sample, smarter analyst, ect. Fisher also went pass happy/wacky in the 1st quarters of the last 2 games of the season.

So while Kerry did throw more than Vince in the 1st quarter, the large difference that's been thrown around can mostly be attributed to attempts later in the game.

Furthermore, Kerry threw 6 more times in 3 more plays which isn't all that much over the course of a season.

I would argue that this is consistent with the thesis that Vince's fewer attempts, CJ's increased attempts, and CJ's decreased ypc can be attributed to the Titans leading more games with Vince, and therefore burning more clock.

:munchout:

[darrelgreenie]

I would argue that this is consistent with the thesis that Vince's fewer attempts, CJ's increased attempts, and CJ's decreased ypc can be attributed to the Titans leading more games with Vince, and therefore burning more clock.

Thanks for the effort in the research this beers on me.

I was to lazy to do the leg work, but I didn't think Fisher was crazy enough to purposefully hinder his chances to win with a playcalling bias.

[grego]

Your thought process isn't that far off from mine, but we're on different sides of the issue. For me, it boils down to this: Defenses are forced to pick their poison against VY. They (probably rightly) chose to defend the run at all costs. This resulted in VY having his best year.

As you say, we have a worse line. This means we need the most mobile QB we can get to have a shot. VY is in many ways the perfect QB for where we are in our team-building process. Getting the second most mobile starting QB in the league who also happens to be an accurate deep passer is good enough, but getting him on the cheap with a short-term contract if it doesn't work?...perfect situation. Add in the fact that we are the one team with the personnel to possibly be a great support system for VY and rebuild his confidence in himself (if that's truly an issue), and this seems like a match made in heaven.

i think i agree with you. i understand alot of what kdawg is saying, (nice post, kdawg. very well said) but i'm coming down in the 'bring him in' side of the issue as well. in part, its due to his high ranking by FO and in part due to what i saw from him last year, especially his deep ball accuracy.

kdawg, i would only say that, as much as i havent been psyched about our WR's, tenn's sucked pretty bad (thats why they rolled the dice on moss). and i do believe that our WR's will be improved this year (love me some hankerson).

[KDawg]

A lot has been made about Fisher "hiding" Vince, due to the difference in rushing and passing attempts w/ Kerry and Vince.

Before I talk about the post... I want to say GREAT post. THIS is what should be made when debating. Not throwing vague information around. Big time kudos to you for doing your homework.

I and others have suggested that this difference could be a result of leading more games with Vince.

Due to your research, I can see how this can be the case. However, my main two contention points with Vince have been 1) Mental Instability, 2) Not a fit. This does nothing to refute those two claims, but it certainly made me stop and think about this being the case. And it appears that this was the case in 2010 based on your data.

But, let's look further at the data. Young threw 156 passes in 9 games and 8 started. Collins threw 278 passes in 9 games and 7 started. Collins threw 122 more passes than Young in 1 less game started and the same amount of games played. That's a huge discrepency.

With Vince Young was the high passer on the Titans, the team was 3-4.

With Kerry Collins as the high passer on the Titans, the team was 3-5. (Rusty Smith was the high passer vs Houston a 20-0 L). The Pittsburgh loss fell on the hands of Young, not Collins. So Collins was really 3-4 in this department as well.

So neither guy was outstanding. But they won the same amount of games.

Young, in his years as starter, posted his best record as 10-6.

Kerry Collins had the team go 13-3. (He started at QB in 15 games with a 12-3 record, to be fair).

The argument that Young is a 'winner' falls apart here. (I know this isn't what your post is about, this was just a random thought that crossed my mind.)

Back to addressing your point (sorry, shiny object/tangent there)...

Going a step further, Vince threw 156 passes in 2010, while Kerry threw 278, meaning Vince threw around 30% of his attempts in the 1st quarter while Kerry threw less than 20%. Sacks might skew this number a bit, but it should be roughly accurate.

Let's look at the other quarters as well...

1st quarter:

Collins: 17.6% of his passes

Young: 26.2% of his passes

2nd quarter:

Collins: 26.9% of his passes

Young: 28.2% of his passes

3rd Quarter:

Collins: 19.7% of his passes

Young: 29.4% of his passes

4th Quarter:

Collins: 35.6% of his passes

Young: 16% of his passes

Young threw a larger percentage of his passes in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd quarters. Collins threw a much larger percentage in the 4th quarter.

Week 2 versus Pittsburgh, entering the 4th quarter the Titans were down by 10 points. Young started the game and played the first three quarters. Collins replaced Young in the fourth quarter. In one quarter of play, Collins threw 25 passes. Young threw 10 all game. So 25 of Collins 99 4th quarter pass attempts came in one game, that Young put them in the hole in. So in the rest of Collins 9 games, he threw 74 4th quarter passes. That's 26% of his total passes. Getting much closer to Young's 16% (which by the way, had he stayed in that game, would probably be higher.)

Furthermore, Young wasn't in the game in the 4th quarter several times, due to injury, benching, what have you, and this is the MOST glaring reason why Collins threw the ball much more in the 4th quarter, and why his attempt numbers are so much higher.

Pittsburgh is one example. almost 25% of his 4th quarter passes came in this game ALONE.

In week 8 versus San Diego, Collins came in in the middle of the 4th due to a Young injury and threw 15 passes. That's 15% of his fourth quarter passes.

So between SD/Pitt, Collins threw 40 of his 99 4th quarter passes. That leaves him with 59 of his 99 4th quarter passes being in situations he put himself in. 21% of his total passes thrown came in the 4th quarter, when not put in a hole by Young, compared to Young's 16%. (And it's worth it to point out, that had Young been in these games, his attempts/percentage would have increased).

Not an impact on Collins, but against us in week 11... Rusty Smith threw 6 passes in the 4th quarter. Which could have also been Young's.

A large % of Collins throws that came in the 4th quarter were due to Young not being in the game after falling behind! NOT through being his fault. Furthermore, if Young were in, he'd have a higher percentage of 4th quarter passes thrown, thus making the 4th quarter discrepency much closer than it appears

So while Kerry did throw more than Vince in the 1st quarter, the large difference that's been thrown around can mostly be attributed to attempts later in the game.

Vince threw a larger percentage of passes in the 1st than Kerry did. This actually helps your point a bit that Fisher may have trusted him more than I believe. Your attempts later in the game stat is flawed, as outlined above.

I would argue that this is consistent with the thesis that Vince's fewer attempts, CJ's increased attempts, and CJ's decreased ypc can be attributed to the Titans leading more games with Vince, and therefore burning more clock.

I would argue that Vince helped put them in holes and then couldn't finish the game and Kerry HAD to throw more in the 4th because of this.

Still, good research. Thanks!

[VYFan]

KDawg: You make some interesting points. My guess is the Fisher was pretty consistent with how he used QBs and the differences were mostly situational. I have nothing much to back that up yet, only a gut feeling.

As to your point on who's to blame for those situations, I'll have to think about that for a while. You brought up some interesting numbers and points.

Where did you find passing broken down by quarters? I had to count mine by hand off of play-by-plays and that is tedious and not always accurate.

The larger points about fit and mental make up depend on how much you trust the coaching staff in properly vetting VY.

Oh, and Vince just winz!!11!!

[KDawg]

KDawg: You make some interesting points. My guess is the Fisher was pretty consistent with how he used QBs and the differences were mostly situational. I have nothing much to back that up yet, only a gut feeling.

As to your point on who's to blame for those situations, I'll have to think about that for a while. You brought up some interesting numbers and points.

Where did you find passing broken down by quarters? I had to count mine by hand off of play-by-plays and that is tedious and not always accurate.

The larger points about fit and mental make up depend on how much you trust the coaching staff in properly vetting VY.

Oh, and Vince just winz!!11!!

NFL.com

If you go to the player page, it has a situational stats tab you can click.

I started doing it manually and got annoyed and went looking and found it

Oh, and as I've said, I don't trust the coaching staff in using VY correctly. Which, again, is why I don't believe he's a fit (that and his mental makeup )

[drtdrums]

KDAWG,

Given that we do have a bad line and whoever is back there will be running for their life as often as not (unless we miraculously replace Rabach), who do you think gives us the best chance to win this year among the likely candidates?

McNabb and probably Grossman are not options. Bulger isn't very mobile, Beck is moreso but not by much, Hass has lost a step...I'm not coming up with a lot of answers here.

[Dr Drunkenstein]

KDAWG,

Given that we do have a bad line and whoever is back there will be running for their life as often as not (unless we miraculously replace Rabach), who do you think gives us the best chance to win this year among the likely candidates?

McNabb and probably Grossman are not options. Bulger isn't very mobile, Beck is moreso but not by much, Hass has lost a step...I'm not coming up with a lot of answers here.

VY is the answer. I think the NFC East is vulnerable next season, especially with our increased pass rush. I'll be checking in with you naysayers when Vince has the Redskins in the playoffs.

[KDawg]

KDAWG,

Given that we do have a bad line and whoever is back there will be running for their life as often as not (unless we miraculously replace Rabach), who do you think gives us the best chance to win this year among the likely candidates?

McNabb and probably Grossman are not options. Bulger isn't very mobile, Beck is moreso but not by much, Hass has lost a step...I'm not coming up with a lot of answers here.

To be honest, I have no idea. I don't think it's Young, Hasselbeck, Smith, Bulger, etc.

Beck or Grossman may be our best chance this year due to time in the system and an abbreviated offseason. I think Palmer has time left but he'd be a pure stop gap and would need a trade so no dice there either. If Orton were somehow released... He won't be, but if he were I'd say him.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I'll be checking in with you naysayers when Vince has the Redskins in the playoffs.

If only what happens on folks Madden games happened in reality, sighs.

Hail.

[SpacePenguin]

If only what happens on folks Madden games happened in reality, sighs.

Hail.

Lol....so true. John Beck is my starter on Madden. Used a draft class from OS, Kerrigan and Hankerson are nice, Helu, Jenkins, Gomes, Royster....all are pretty useless. Damn randomized ratings!

Aldrick Robinson got cut

Lockout boring.

[lookin4ahomeTexan]

To be honest, I have no idea. I don't think it's Young, Hasselbeck, Smith, Bulger, etc.

Beck or Grossman may be our best chance this year due to time in the system and an abbreviated offseason. I think Palmer has time left but he'd be a pure stop gap and would need a trade so no dice there either. If Orton were somehow released... He won't be, but if he were I'd say him.

Kdawg? You may have said it before but it may have been way back I didn't want to go back and read.

You don't think Vince fits only because of the mental, emotional, off the field issues right? Is that the only thing?

Since Vince is not a good fit.

If your QB is running for his life it would help to have someone that can run. No one you've mention can run at all. I believe they all have 40 times of 4.7 and up.

To do any kind of winning you should just fix it with McNabb. Let him dodge all the rush that will get through.

---------- Post added May-13th-2011 at 06:03 PM ----------

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn3n6T9e8HI

Pretty sure some or all have seen this before and if you haven't just take a look inside the guy you may get.

[lookin4ahomeTexan]

Yea I know this is all old. He probably won't even go to your team. But no reason to sit back for a whole season and not know the guy. Just in case. Maybe he will turn you around if he did. If not no harm cause yall will probably move on to Luck or or another young guy. Just saying.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNnzD9BhC4U&feature=relmfu

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Question our of pure curiosity man.

Presuming we didn't sign VY, and he ended up elsewhere. Is that where you'd then lay your hat, so to speak?

Hail.

[lookin4ahomeTexan]

Guess I need to clarify again.

Said before, and made people laugh for it. I am a Texans fan. I am also a Titans fan being that I grew up with them.

Bottom line during the season my DVR will record 3 games. Which will be the Texans, the Titans and what ever team VY is on.

I didn't join the forum because he was going to you guys for sure. I join so i could join the discussion otherwise as you know you can only read the threads.

Let me add though.

I'm cool with watching Redskins games though. I don't just watch every NFL football game unless its playoffs. I watch my teams.

But its a few teams that if there on I'll sit back and watch while not rooting for them I appreciate the team. i.e Redskins, Cowboys when Aikman & Emmitt were there, Tampa Bay, I like watching some Josh Freeman because he went to Kansas State.

Anyway yea that's the gist of it.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

I hadn't seen that, but thank you for clarifying.

And this is nothing personal, as I'd say this to anyone who said the same, and have on these here boards whne the occasions risen it's ugly head; but I can't take you seriously as a football "fan" when your a "fan" of two teams. I'll leave that at that before I say something that may offend, which I don't want to.

Hail.

[terpskins10]

But its a few teams that if there on I'll sit back and watch while not rooting for them I appreciate the team. i.e Redskins, Cowboys when Aikman & Emmitt were there, Tampa Bay, I like watching some Josh Freeman because he went to Kansas State.

:munchout:

[lookin4ahomeTexan]

I hadn't seen that, but thank you for clarifying.

And this is nothing personal, as I'd say this to anyone who said the same, and have on these here boards whne the occasions risen it's ugly head; but I can't take you seriously as a football "fan" when your a "fan" of two teams. I'll leave that at that before I say something that may offend, which I don't want to.

Hail.

Aw man naw! We just conversation and debating, no need to take offense to nothing. It's only a few things in the world I see to really take offense to, (like being called an N word with bad

intent, spitting in some ones face, etc.)

There are more people like that as well. I put up something pages ago that, a lot of people are often surprise about when I explain it to them. The Houston situation is unique and totally different than the Ravens/Browns situation. A lot of people like to use that one as an example. However, all awards, records, etc stayed with the Browns. So you may think that its the same but in actuality the way they set it up the Ravens is more like the expansion team than the Browns.

Oilers awards, records etc remain in Tennessee not one thing is in Houston.

[drtdrums]

I hadn't seen that, but thank you for clarifying.

And this is nothing personal, as I'd say this to anyone who said the same, and have on these here boards whne the occasions risen it's ugly head; but I can't take you seriously as a football "fan" when your a "fan" of two teams. I'll leave that at that before I say something that may offend, which I don't want to.

Hail.

I don't think you'd have to worry about Tex taking that personally. I'm a Redskins fan. I bleed B&G. But I'm also a football fan, so I love watching the Saints, Pats, seeing the Browns rebuild, seeing the Chiefs and Raiders rebuild, watching Darren Sproles change games by himself... There's only one team I loathe, and I'm thankful that they make it so easy to do. Tex has really added to the conversation here and I appreciate the time and thought he's put into this thread.

[lookin4ahomeTexan]

Ultimately the game is not just about the 'game' so to speak. Its also about the players, that sentiment is even stronger when you actually know these guys or watched them grow up. I get into the players. I'm just now getting over the Rockets trading away Steve Frances and Cuttino Mobley. I worked at the stadium stocking beer at the time, so I had conversations with these guys, been one of the only people in the stadium to watch them practice. Same with VY.

I ran 200m, 300 hurdles at Madison HS. There track was so hard it felt like concrete, it was terrible. A few years after VY, they had new everything.

But yea, this lockout and no transactions is bs. So you got to speculate.