2011 Major League Baseball Thread

[royallypwned]

I agree with that. Yes he was great in the playoffs, but during the regular season, he really wasn't anything special.

Anybody who thinks Cliff Lee was a major reason the Rangers made the playoffs in the first place clearly didn't pay attention. His ERA here was about 4.00, while in Seattle it was under 2.40. The Rangers had already built an insurmountable division lead before Lee got there, then pretty much treaded water after the trade. But yes, Lee was a huge reason why Texas got to the World Series.

CJ Wilson was the better pitcher for the Rangers and Felix Hernandez was better for the Mariners. Being #2 on both teams clearly means he can't be considered #1 overall in MLB.

I will always appreciate Lee's contributions for us last October, but Rangers fans moved on from him a long time ago.

[Going Commando]

@ Cliff Lee being the "best pitcher last year."

Cliff Lee wasn't even the best pitcher on EITHER of the two teams he played for in 2010.

Who was better on the Rangers? Feliz? He was pretty sensational last year but he's a BP guy so it's not a fair comparison. I'm not sure I totally agree that C.J. Wilson or Colby Lewis were better although I can see a statistical argument for both.

[PeterMP]

How has Teixiera substantially declined since he signed with the Yankees? He's coming off back to back gold glove seasons for them and won a silver slugger in 2009. His average might have dropped a bit since Texas but he was never consistently a high average hitter anyway and his power numbers are all just as good as ever. They signed him to drive in tons of runs and that's exactly what he's done. He's also currently on pace for one of the better offensive seasons of his career, tied for first in the Majors in HRs and is 5th in the Majors in RBIs.

Really the onus of proof should be on you, since no metric I can think of indicates he was the best pitcher in baseball last season. If you use sabremetrics then Felix Hernandez was better. If you go by wins, complete games, benchmark performances, etc. it was Roy Halladay. If you go by awards, both of them got the Cy Young and he didn't. If you go by post season performance it was Lincecum. What are you basing your claim on that he was the best?

Lee lead in RAR and WAR. It is unlikely that he will be a value at the end of his current contract though.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=6&season=2010&month=0

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1281&position=1B

Teixeira had a good year two years ago, but he appears to have aged quickly. Last year was not nearly as good (his WAR went from 5.3 to 3.3), and he's off to an even worse start this year. I think there is little doubt that his decline is real and that we won't see a number like 5.3 from him again.

Gold gloves are the most meaningless thing in sports.

[MattFancy]

Anybody who thinks Cliff Lee was a major reason the Rangers made the playoffs in the first place clearly didn't pay attention. His ERA here was about 4.00, while in Seattle it was under 2.40. The Rangers had already built an insurmountable division lead before Lee got there, then pretty much treaded water after the trade. But yes, Lee was a huge reason why Texas got to the World Series.

CJ Wilson was the better pitcher for the Rangers and Felix Hernandez was better for the Mariners. Being #2 on both teams clearly means he can't be considered #1 overall in MLB.

I will always appreciate Lee's contributions for us last October, but Rangers fans moved on from him a long time ago.

I posted last week that before Lee, the Rangers had 50 some wins and after they had him, it was like 40 something. So you're right, he really didn't make an impact until the postseason.

[royallypwned]

Who was better on the Rangers? Feliz? He was pretty sensational last year but he's a BP guy so it's not a fair comparison. I'm not sure I totally agree that C.J. Wilson or Colby Lewis were better although I can see a statistical argument for both.

I want to first preface by saying I am talking about his numbers while with the team, and not overall for the entire season. Don't know which way you took it, but I wanted to be clear with that.

Cliff Lee w/Rangers: 4-6, 3.98 ERA

CJ Wilson overall: 15-8, 3.35 ERA

CJ Wilson after Lee trade: 8-4, 3.49 ERA

[HEavyJumbo85]

How has Teixiera substantially declined since he signed with the Yankees? He's coming off back to back gold glove seasons for them and won a silver slugger in 2009. His average might have dropped a bit since Texas but he was never consistently a high average hitter anyway and his power numbers are all just as good as ever. They signed him to drive in tons of runs and that's exactly what he's done. He's also currently on pace for one of the better offensive seasons of his career, tied for first in the Majors in HRs and is 5th in the Majors in RBIs.

Bringing up Gold Gloves, hey? Yeah, that's going to work against you...like a lot. Total rep award, total bogus award. Derek Jeter won one last year, so...lol at that. Defensive value metrics show Teixeira as a dead middle of the road 1st baseman, with a negative fielding value. His value came with his bat and he still was only worth 3 wins above replacement level, which as I noted earlier, places him 11th among big league 1st basemen. He was a guy good for almost 7 wins before signing with the Yankees.

Really the onus of proof should be on you, since no metric I can think of indicates he was the best pitcher in baseball last season. If you use sabremetrics then Felix Hernandez was better. If you go by wins, complete games, benchmark performances, etc. it was Roy Halladay. If you go by awards, both of them got the Cy Young and he didn't. If you go by post season performance it was Lincecum. What are you basing your claim on that he was the best?

WAR...which is "the" metric to use. LOL at wins, awards, and benchmark performances. "Hi, I still think it's 1970." You probably think everybody needs a big time closer too.

@ Cliff Lee being the "best pitcher last year."

Cliff Lee wasn't even the best pitcher on EITHER of the two teams he played for in 2010.

Metrics say he was, I'm curious to see how you're arriving at that conclusion.

I agree with that. Yes he was great in the playoffs, but during the regular season, he really wasn't anything special.

That's your opinion, of course, but it's wrong.

---------- Post added June-22nd-2011 at 12:14 PM ----------

I want to first preface by saying I am talking about his numbers while with the team, and not overall for the entire season. Don't know which way you took it, but I wanted to be clear with that.

Cliff Lee w/Rangers: 4-6, 3.98 ERA

CJ Wilson overall: 15-8, 3.35 ERA

CJ Wilson after Lee trade: 8-4, 3.49 ERA

Wrong numbers bro.

Lee had a 3.1 WAR after he was dealt to the Rangers, nobody on the staff was better during that time period.

[Going Commando]

Lee lead in RAR and WAR. It is unlikely that he will be a value at the end of his current contract though.

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=6&season=2010&month=0

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1281&position=1B

Are you sure about those numbers? I'm pretty sure they are very wrong. I trust baseball reference way more than a fantasy site:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/leecl02.shtml

His WAR for last season with Seattle was 2.8 and for Texas 1.5. Hernandez's # is correct at 6.2.

His RAR with Seattle was 28 and Texas was 15. Hernandez's was 59, so that number is off too.

I'm not sure where that site derives its #s from.

---------- Post added June-22nd-2011 at 12:43 PM ----------

Bringing up Gold Gloves, hey? Yeah, that's going to work against you...like a lot. Total rep award, total bogus award. Derek Jeter won one last year, so...lol at that. Defensive value metrics show Teixeira as a dead middle of the road 1st baseman, with a negative fielding value. His value came with his bat and he still was only worth 3 wins above replacement level, which as I noted earlier, places him 11th among big league 1st basemen. He was a guy good for almost 7 wins before signing with the Yankees.

WAR...which is "the" metric to use. LOL at wins, awards, and benchmark performances. "Hi, I still think it's 1970." You probably think everybody needs a big time closer too.

I see you've resorted to the tried and true tactic of "patronizing douche" to cover the fact that you're mostly talking out of your ass. Look buddy, you don't know what I think about anything so stop trying to come up with straw man arguments and attribute them to me. Everyone knows all about sabremetrics and WAR certainly isn't the only one that's interesting.

As for Teixiera, the bottom line is that his power numbers have been elite among all major league 1B since the Yankees signed him. You can't lose sight of that to focus only on WAR because that misses the point. He does what a star first baseman is supposed to do at an elite level--drive in runs. Few other single players have done so at the rate he has the past two and a half seasons and WAR is definitely not an ironclad metric given all of the assumptions it makes.

Wrong numbers bro.

Lee had a 3.1 WAR after he was dealt to the Rangers, nobody on the staff was better during that time period.

Actually your # is wrong according to baseball reference. RP is a Rangers fan. One would think you'd stop talking from your ass from the point of some questionable advanced metric and defer to the evaluation of someone who actually watched him and CJ Wilson pitch last season...

[HEavyJumbo85]

Are you sure about those numbers? I'm pretty sure they are very wrong. I trust baseball reference way more than a fantasy site:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/leecl02.shtml

His WAR for last season with Seattle was 2.8 and for Texas 1.5. Hernandez's # is correct at 6.2.

His RAR with Seattle was 28 and Texas was 15. Hernandez's was 59, so that number is off too.

I'm not sure where that site derives its #s from.

Yeah, baseball reference and fangraphs calculate their stuff, specifically WAR differently. there's fWAR for fangraphs and rWAR for baseball reference. I've always been a fangraphs guy because their pitcher WAR is a completely defense independent metric, and baseball reference throws in the the "defensive runs saved" stat into their WAR calculation. The overall fWAR is more appealing to me, also, because they use the UZR fielding metric which is better than the "total zone" baseball reference uses, only issue is it's only good for players going back to 2002. Baseball reference is fine, and probably better than nothing, but the fWAR is 100% DIPs compliant, and probably the most accurate for pitchers.

[PeterMP]

Yeah, baseball reference and fangraphs calculate their stuff, specifically WAR differently. there's fWAR for fangraphs and rWAR for baseball reference. I've always been a fangraphs guy because their pitcher WAR is a completely defense independent metric, and baseball reference throws in the the "defensive runs saved" stat into their WAR calculation. The overall fWAR is more appealing to me, also, because they use the UZR fielding metric which is better than the "total zone" baseball reference uses, only issue is it's only good for players going back to 2002. Baseball reference is fine, and probably better than nothing, but the fWAR is 100% DIPs compliant, and probably the most accurate for pitchers.

I'm surprised that Hernandez has exactly the same number under both systems (I guess with all of the players in MLB somebody does).

[MattFancy]

That's your opinion, of course, but it's wrong

How is it wrong? Look at his numbers. Since when is 4-6 with a 3.98 ERA good? In a third of his starts with the Rangers, he allowed 5 or more runs. He had a stretch last year in August: 29.1 IP and 27 ER. I don't care what metrics say, that's not good.

[HEavyJumbo85]

I see you've resorted to the tried and true tactic of "patronizing douche" to cover the fact that you're mostly talking out of your ass. Look buddy, you don't know what I think about anything so stop trying to come up with straw man arguments and attribute them to me. Everyone knows all about sabremetrics and WAR certainly isn't the only one that's interesting.

As for Teixiera, the bottom line is that his power numbers have been elite among all major league 1B since the Yankees signed him. You can't lose sight of that to focus only on WAR because that misses the point. He does what a star first baseman is supposed to do at an elite level--drive in runs. Few other single players have done so at the rate he has the past two and a half seasons and WAR is definitely not an ironclad metric given all of the assumptions it makes.

So you're douching right back in an attempt to distract from the fact that you just tried to use Gold Gloves in an argument? That's like Saturday Night Live "Really?!" segment worthy. If you're going to be that ridiculous by suggesting that I look at wins, awards, and benchmark performances which are completely subjective and have no bearing on anything based in reality to determine anything, yeah I'm probably going to respond like an idiot with a ridiculous run on sentence that kind of but doesn't quite throw back the idiocy that's implied of me through your writing and the like.

Oy on the Teixeira stuff, as I can't believe we're still wasting time on him. I see you're backtracking on your Teixeira as a Gold Glove winner having any bearing on his fielding or otherwise overall ability. I'm happy for you. Power numbers are great, but they don't specifically lead to wins and they aren't a great overall indicator of a player's value. It's one tool. It's a tool that fills the seats and commands a lot of money among the old school of thought, but it's still just one part of a player.

Agree that WAR is not ironclad, but if you're consolidating things down to a few important stats, WAR is probably the first thing you should look at.

Actually your # is wrong according to baseball reference. RP is a Rangers fan. One would think you'd stop talking from your ass from the point of some questionable advanced metric and defer to the evaluation of someone who actually watched him and CJ Wilson pitch last season...

Uhhh, Yeah, Okay Bro, I'll get right on it.

That's how you patronize someone.

---------- Post added June-22nd-2011 at 02:08 PM ----------

How is it wrong?

You think that runs allowed is his fault.

[Drew_Fl]

I just wanted to vent about stupid blackout restrictions...In Charlotte, i'm blocked from Braves, Orioles, Nats, and Reds. FYI Vegas is the worst with 6 teams blacked out. This sucks as I'm a Mariners fan and can't watch them play the Nationals. To go to that game I'd have to drive about 9 hours.

[sportjunkie07]

i always wondered what people in NC did for baseball. you guys are pretty much screwed.

[MattFancy]

You think that runs allowed is his fault.

Well if they aren't they're called Unearned Runs.

[HEavyJumbo85]

Well if they aren't they're called Unearned Runs.

No, please don't.

EDIT: Sorry, I mean that they have numbers now that adjust for the defense behind the pitcher. It shouldn't reflect poorly on the pitcher if his center fielder, for instance, can't get to the same ball as an all-star center fielder could. And also the park, which foul balls would have been caught if his park had as much foul territory as another park; this works both ways. Roy Halladay playing with a high school defense is going to give up more runs than Roy Halladay with the Phillies, yes?

[MattFancy]

No, please don't.

EDIT: Sorry, I mean that they have numbers now that adjust for the defense behind the pitcher. It shouldn't reflect poorly on the pitcher if his center fielder, for instance, can't get to the same ball as an all-star center fielder could. And also the park, which foul balls would have been caught if his park had as much foul territory as another park; this works both ways. Roy Halladay playing with a high school defense is going to give up more runs than Roy Halladay with the Phillies, yes?

I knew as soon as I hit send on that one that I shouldn't have. Of course all the runs aren't always the pitchers' fault. But adjusting for who's playing the field is dumb IMO. Not every pitcher has an all-star behind them at every position, so why adjust for that? I mean, why not adjust for RBIs a batter would've had if he had better hitters around him. All the adjusted stats are useless for me. You play with the hand your dealt.

Cliff Lee is a VERY good pitcher. Was he the best pitcher last season? Not from what I saw. Sure maybe WAR and some other stats may say otherwise, but I know what I saw. I'd put Hernandez and Halladay above him easily.

[Drew_Fl]

i always wondered what people in NC did for baseball. you guys are pretty much screwed.

fortunately i downloaded a free trial of a software that hides your IP and i'm able to watch todays Mariners/Nats game on Mlb.tv

i'm very happy about that.

[pjfootballer]

i always wondered what people in NC did for baseball. you guys are pretty much screwed.

We get the Braves games. It's weird, but we get the Braves and the Thrashers, but not the Hawks. We get the Bobcats (very limited number of games) and the Hurricanes. There are alot of minor league teams around the Carolinas. I'd go to a minor league game more than a major league game. Its more fan friendly, good seats, good baseball and most importantly good on the wallet.

[sportjunkie07]

ok so i just want to chime in about the comments from the last few pages. cliff lee is definitely the same caliber as mark texiera. you can use whatever metrics/stats you want, but because you can pretty much prove anything you want with those stats, sometimes you have to do the eye test. they are both elite/near elite at their position.

cliff lee was not great with the rangers during the 2nd half last year, in fact, i think cj was better as well. lee was cy-like with the mariners though. hjumbo, i agree with you that a player's teammates do affect public perception of how good a player is. imagine if CC was on the orioles. he would not be in the running for cy every year.

part of the reason i predicted adrian gonzalez for mvp was because of the above. he plays in a better ballpark now, has a much better lineup supporting him, and more recognition.

[HEavyJumbo85]

I knew as soon as I hit send on that one that I shouldn't have. Of course all the runs aren't always the pitchers' fault. But adjusting for who's playing the field is dumb IMO. Not every pitcher has an all-star behind them at every position, so why adjust for that? I mean, why not adjust for RBIs a batter would've had if he had better hitters around him. All the adjusted stats are useless for me. You play with the hand say otherwise, but I know what I saw. .

That's just ignorance, though. They don't adjust to the "all star" they adjust to the league average from both directions. And with the RBIs thing, lol because that's exactly what they do.

[royallypwned]

At least he did better than John Wall. :pfft:

[royallypwned]

[samy316]

Here's a new one:

The Mariners & Marlins are playing an interleague series this weekend. Florida is the home team for this series, but there is a U2 concert at Sun Life Stadium on Tuesday. The problem here is that U2 notified the Marlins management a few weeks ago that they need at least 3-4 days to set up their concert stage. Because of this, the Marlins are forced to play the Mariners in Seattle this weekend, even though technically Florida is still the home team. Very weird scenario that you don't see that often, and probably more misery for the Marlins because of their recent struggles.

[Teller]

Holy damn I love this Bucs team!!

Up 5-2 on Wakefield through 5 1/2.

[Die Hard]

How's this for old.... I remember when Tim Wakefield was a Pirate!