visionary Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Mubarak is on now. (so far he's just blaming opposition groups for all the chaos and violence....) Whoops. I didn't mean for this to be a new post. Oh well. (He just said he won't stand in the next election.) (He also said he wants the parliament to speed up the elections. Whatever that means.) (He wants the authorities to pursue those responsible for all the chaos and destructive acts of the last few days.) He didn't say anything about his son or his buddies not running for election. And he clearly wants to stay until September at least. We'll see how people respond. Even Obama supposedly wants him to step down now. I must have missed this part of the speech: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698 #2109: The president calls upon the Egyptian parliament to modify Article 67 of the constitution to make it possible to impose term limits on his successors. In any case, folks do not seem happy right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I_Bleed_B&G Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 This translator is awful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 I haven't heard anyone voice that as a stated goal yet Maybe you should read up on the goals of the muslem brotherhood. The Brotherhood's stated goal is to instill the Qur'an and Sunnah as the "sole reference point for ... ordering the life of the Muslim family, individual, community Primary goalsreinstatement of the caliphate and reunite the "dar el Islam". Strengthening the internal structure Administrative discipline Recruitment and settlement of the Dawa'a Energizing the organisations work Energizing political work fronts (e.g. in civil political organisations) None of which is a deal stopper. The only deal stopper for me is if they don't agree the continued support of the Egyption people is a prerequisite for power. on tv and every article I've read has said that the Muslim Brotherhood is completely nonviolence and much more moderate these days. They call for violence against Israel or have in the recent paste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Maybe you should read up on the goals of the muslem brotherhood.They call for violence against Israel or have in the recent paste. Not to be overly picky, but do you have a link or at least a source for those? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.C.O.L.B. Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 The people aren't going to settle for this. Mubarak has to go. Now. Stick a transitional government in place until the elections in September. Make the people running the transitional government declare that they won't run for election in September. They're just place holder/peace keepers until then. BTW, talking to parents and other older folk, I get the sense that they're still stuck in Cold War politics in many ways. I think you see that on here and in other places. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 I'm confused as to whether the protesters are happy or angry right now. LOL BBC was saying they were happy, but on CNN the translators say the crowd is pissed and says they won't leave until Mubarak does. Ok, it's pretty clear they aren't happy now. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698 #2114: The president concludes his address by saying he intends to die in Egypt. #2118: The tens of thousands of people in Tahrir Square respond to Mr Mubarak's announcement by shouting "Get out!" in unison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.C.O.L.B. Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 I think they're happy that they've made progress but that it's still not enough and they're insulted that Mubarak thinks it will be. They're going to keep pushing now. No way Mubarak stays in power until September and perhaps not even until the end of the week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 My favorite part of the speech. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698 [update 11:05 p.m. Cairo, 4:05 p.m. ET]According to an English translation of his speech, Mubarak said that "with all honesty and without looking at this particular situation ... I was not intent on standing for the next elections because I have spent enough time in serving Egypt." Translation: Well... I wasn't going to run anyway. So screw you guys. It seems like right now the feeling is a mix of anger and fear. Anger at Mubarak for insulting them and refusing to resign or give in very much at all. And fear that there is a crackdown coming if people do not stop protesting now, and that there will be punishment for their protests when they vote in September. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Wrong.... When Britan pulled out of Ireland in the 1930's. They demanded such guarantees and demanded the new government of Ireland crawl, walk before it ran. We could certainly do the same. Just pointing out the minor detail that Egypt is not currently under US occupation. Making our ability to demand that they must pass a Constitution we like, or we won't leave, rather difficult. I will also observe that no Constitution can guarantee freedom if the people don't want it that much. (Although I do admit that for a while there, post-Saddam, I did have this vision of the US, as conquerors of the country, announcing "All right, suckers, here's how it's going to be: We're going to have three states (One Shuni, One Shi'ite, one Kurdish), with local autonomy, under a limited federal government, with a Constitution limiting that government. And I just happen to have a document that fits that bill, with a few modifications." I wouldn't have minded a bit if we'd "forced" the people of Iraq to vote on whether to live under the US Constitution.) (Unfortunately, as I understand it, Turkey would have **** a brick at the thought of a Kurdish-run state on their border.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698 #2215: The BBC's Mark Mardell in Washington says US officials now believe that Mr Mubarak standing aside in September is no longer enough. Western diplomats have come to an agreement with the US state dept that Mr Mubarak must go now - there can't be reform while he is still at the helm, he says. #2220: The BBC's Jim Muir in Tahrir Square says some people are calling for an even bigger demonstration on Friday - while others are saying "No - tomorrow". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.C.O.L.B. Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Don't know if this has been posted yet but here's the streaming link to Al Jazeera English. On the right of the page about halfway down. http://www.youtube.com/user/AlJazeeraEnglish Damn shame we don't carry this channel in the US. Especially during these times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Have you been listening to any of the protesters? They want rights, not more restrictions. Even the Muslim brotherhood wants democracy, from what they've said. I haven't heard anyone calling for more involvement of religion. Somehow I bet that the Ayatollah didn't say "If you give me power, then I will become the worst dictator you've ever seen". Granted, I have an instinctive reaction towards anything called "The Muslim brotherhood". I immediately assume that it's yet another terrorist organization hiding behind a front that claims to be humanitarian. Just because they aren't running through the streets waving a sword, yelling "death to the infidels" doesn't make me assume that they're Good Guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.C.O.L.B. Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Al Jazeera is saying pro-Mubarak supporters are clashing with anti-Mubarak protesters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Somehow I bet that the Ayatollah didn't say "If you give me power, then I will become the worst dictator you've ever seen". Granted, I have an instinctive reaction towards anything called "The Muslim brotherhood". I immediately assume that it's yet another terrorist organization hiding behind a front that claims to be humanitarian. Just because they aren't running through the streets waving a sword, yelling "death to the infidels" doesn't make me assume that they're Good Guys. True, but they weren't going around talking about secularism and they were focusing on making the country more openly religious. #2257: Egyptian opposition leader Mohamed ElBaradei does not believe President Hosni Mubarak went far enough to meet the demands of protesters, calling his announcement "a trick" to try to remain in power, according to CNN. The Nobel Peace Prize winner tells the news channel that he wants Mr Mubarak to step down immediately and to hand over power to a caretaker government until elections can be held. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duckus Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 After days of blackout silence just got word that my friend, who lives and works in Cairo is safe and sound. This is amazing stuff. I am glued to BBC World News. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 True, but they weren't going around talking about secularism and they were focusing on making the country more openly religious.] In a society that far too many support a death sentence for leaving the majority religion there is a strong possibility they have a different interpretation of openly religious than you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 After days of blackout silence just got word that my friend, who lives and works in Cairo is safe and sound. This is amazing stuff. I am glued to BBC World News. Good to hear about your friend. I hope jpyaks3 is ok. I've been keeping eye on things almost all day switching back and forth between CNN and BBC the last couple of days. ---------- Post added February-1st-2011 at 06:36 PM ---------- In a society that far too many support a death sentence for leaving the majority religion there is a strong possibility they have a different interpretation of openly religious than you. Umm, yeah probably. My point was to differentiate between what Khomenei and his supporters were saying and doing before the revolution compared to what the Muslim Brotherhood is doing now. Not to say that I agree with any of them. lol ---------- Post added February-1st-2011 at 06:39 PM ---------- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698 #2321: The BBC's Kim Ghattas in Washington says: "One thing is clear - the announcement by President Mubarak is not enough for the United States.[/B] One official said: 'If he had given this speech last week, it would have been great.' What is unclear is what the US will do next. Will they ask their envoy to speak with Mr Mubarak again, or wait to see what the army and Vice-President Omar Suleiman do? They will most likely be in touch with them, as well as opposition leaders like Mohamed ElBaradei, and hope that Mr Mubarak gets edged out slowly. The US is very keen not to appear like it is dictating what the president or any foreign leader should do." Obama will be giving a statement soon. On CNN they're all wondering what he could possibly say at this point. #2339: Former US Deputy National Security Adviser Elliot Abrams express scepticism about Mr Mubarak's ability to pull off a smooth, slow handover of power. "This just really won't work," he tells CNN. "I can't see anybody in Tahrir Square accepting that he will be president for eight more months and that he would, after 30 years, be trusted to be the man in charge of the democratic transition. Why would anyone believe that?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killerbee99 Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 President Obama on right now...says Mubarak must step down now!!! wow....fascinating stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted February 2, 2011 Author Share Posted February 2, 2011 Not to be overly picky, but do you have a link or at least a source for those? Yes, sorry my bad... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood here is the quote I used again.. The Brotherhood's stated goal is to instill the Qur'an and Sunnah as the "sole reference point for ... ordering the life of the Muslim family, individual, community Primary goals •reinstatement of the caliphate and reunite the "dar el Islam". (**) •Strengthening the internal structure •Administrative discipline •Recruitment and settlement of the Dawa'a •Energizing the organisations work •Energizing political work fronts (e.g. in civil political organisations) (**)"dar el Islam".--- term used by Muslim scholars to refer to those countries where Muslims can practice their religion freely. These are usually Islamic cultures wherein Muslims represent the majority of the population http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisions_of_the_world_in_Islam#Dar_al-Islam_.28House_of_Islam.29 ---------- Post added February-1st-2011 at 08:44 PM ---------- The people aren't going to settle for this. Mubarak has to go. Now. Stick a transitional government in place until the elections in September. Make the people running the transitional government declare that they won't run for election in September. They're just place holder/peace keepers until then. I think that's the job ElBaradei wants...... Me I say the army and Mubaric should state the transition schedule and mandate that transition be based upon a vote. Only candidates who swear alegence to the Democratic paroces in the form of a constitution are eligible to run. Then I would empower the Egyption army to enforce that mandate. BTW, talking to parents and other older folk, I get the sense that they're still stuck in Cold War politics in many ways. I think you see that on here and in other places. It's not cold war politics. It's realism and optimism. It really is, how many countries have collapsed in your lifetime where democracies were formed, many more result in new despots; especially ones which have no history of democratic reform like Egypt. ---------- Post added February-1st-2011 at 08:51 PM ---------- Just pointing out the minor detail that Egypt is not currently under US occupation. Making our ability to demand that they must pass a Constitution we like, or we won't leave, rather difficult. Just pointing out Egypt has one of the largest best equiped and most professional militaries in the Arab ME. Most of hteir officer corps were trained by the United States. That army is largely on the side lines currently. A few choice words and persuasive ear bending and we could certainly get them off the side lines. Especially when the alternative is laid out in front of them. Is it really unreasonable for the United States to pull all the strings it has to try to ensure a democratic Egypt with peaceful transitions of power moving forward into the future? I think not... Nor do I think it's unreasonable for the Egyption Military to be used to supress demonstrators who don't share the goals of a democracy in that land. I will also observe that no Constitution can guarantee freedom if the people don't want it that much. Again there are powerful forces in play which could be ralied in favor of a pro democratic Egypt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Some different opinions on Mubarak's speech from leaders in Egypt and the US http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/02/01/egypt.mubarak.reax/index.html?hpt=T1 A couple of examples: Mohamed ElBaradei, opposition leader:"This is clearly an act of deception. This is a person who doesn't want to let go. You have seen what the city looks like, what the people want. And they continuously try to play tricks. He is unfortunately going to extend the agony here. He continues to polarize the country. He continues to get people to be even more angry. Whoever gave him that advice gave him absolutely the wrong advice. Not at best to be a lame duck person, he's going to be a dead man walking. I don't really understand what is behind that other than a further six, seven months of instability." U.S. Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vermont, and chairman of the Senate Appropriations subcommittee on the State Department and foreign operations:"President Mubarak's decision to stand down from future leadership of the government is welcome, but his continued role in Egypt's transition is unrealistic. The Egyptian people, long denied the chance to freely and fairly choose their leaders, today are voting with their feet, their courage and their voices. Their overwhelmingly nonviolent and steady show of strength has conveyed confidence and won the empathy of people of goodwill across the globe. They are fed up with one-party rule, a repressive police force and a corrupt and stagnant economy. They have the right, as do all people, to decide who their leaders should be, and the sooner that process begins the better. The current government has no credibility to oversee that process. The United States has much at stake in Egypt's future and in our relationships with the people and the governments throughout the Muslim world. The welcome restraint and professionalism shown by the Egyptian Army so far is a testament to the long relationship between our two countries. But we should do what we can to support a transition to democracy including, if it becomes necessary, withholding aid to the government." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Me I say the army and Mubaric should state the transition schedule and mandate that transition be based upon a vote. Only candidates who swear alegence to the Democratic paroces in the form of a constitution are eligible to run. Then I would empower the Egyption army to enforce that mandate.Just pointing out Egypt has one of the largest best equiped and most professional militaries in the Arab ME. Most of hteir officer corps were trained by the United States. That army is largely on the side lines currently. A few choice words and persuasive ear bending and we could certainly get them off the side lines. Especially when the alternative is laid out in front of them. Is it really unreasonable for the United States to pull all the strings it has to try to ensure a democratic Egypt with peaceful transitions of power moving forward into the future? I think not... Nor do I think it's unreasonable for the Egyption Military to be used to supress demonstrators who don't share the goals of a democracy in that land. I do think you've got a point about the military. I would assume that they have a very strong dose of loyalty to their country. (Militaries tend to be really big on that.) And I think the Army might have won some PR points, lately. They didn't suppress the demonstrators. They didn't run away and hide, either. From way over here, I could see how they might be regarded as Good Guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubbs Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 President Obama on right now...says Mubarak must step down now!!! wow....fascinating stuff That's actually the opposite of what he said. It was a very carefully worded statement to not say that Mubarak should step down immediately. Obama said that "the transition" must begin now. That can mean a lot of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Have you been listening to any of the protesters? They want rights, not more restrictions. As my mother told me when I was a whiny little brat, "People in hell want Ice water but they don't always get what they want.The Iranian students back in the 70's wanted the exact same thing and for a month or so they kinda had it. Even the Muslim brotherhood wants democracy, from what they've said. You are not that naive so I am guessing you are just being sarcastic and hopefully not blissfully ignorant. I haven't heard anyone calling for more involvement of religion. Then you must have selective hearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 -As my mother told me when I was a whiny little brat, "People in hell want Ice water but they don't always get what they want.The Iranian students back in the 70's wanted the exact same thing and for a month or so they kinda had it. --You are not that naive so I am guessing you are just being sarcastic and hopefully not blissfully ignorant. - Then you must have selective hearing. --Ok. Hopefully this situation will be different.The world has changed a bit in 30 years and Egypt in 2011 is not Iran in 1979. Nor are the people or the technology the same. -- I'm just saying what they've said so far. I'm not saying I completely trust them. Mubarak says a lot of nice stuff and has gone back on his word tons of times, I don't exactly trust him either. --No, I just haven't really heard any Egyptians on tv calling for more religion in Egypt. I'm sure some are though, but it certainly doesn't seem to be very many, if there are any. The folks on BBC and CNN seem to agree with me on this. Unless everyone has selective hearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G.A.C.O.L.B. Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 There are HUGE differences between Khomeni's role in the Iranian Revolution and the Muslim Brotherhood's here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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