CNN: Report: N. Korea fires on S. Korea, injuring at least 16

[visionary]

New Update

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/11/26/koreas.crisis/index.html?hpt=T2

On Friday, the sound of gunfire from suspected military exercises could be heard coming from North Korea, South Korea's Yonhap news agency said. The gunfire did not appear to be aimed at Yeonpyeong Island, which is just off the coast of North Korea, though South Koreans on the island heard approximately 20 shots.

The island has been almost entirely evacuated of its population of about 1,300. About 30 residents were left, Yonhap said. Most residents had fled to the South Korean mainland. About 100 soldiers and workers also were on the island, doing cleanup and repairs.

The North appeared to have carefully targeted Tuesday's attack, a key South Korean lawmaker said Friday after a visit to Yeonpyeong Island.

"My hunch is that North Korea was picking and choosing its aiming point. They are very focused. They attacked gas station, helicopter pad and command and control sites, and water tanks. Everything that is directly related to military operations, they have completely smashed," said South Korean Congresswoman Sun Young-sun, an influential member of the National Assembly's Defense Committee.

The South has scrambled in the wake of Tuesday's shelling.

Its defense minister resigned Thursday. Kim Tae-young, a former general, came under heavy criticism after the March sinking of the South Korean war ship Cheonan and again after North Korea struck Yeonpyeong Island on Tuesday.

South Korea's defense ministry announced Kim's successor on Friday morning, then quickly waffled, saying that the announcement had to come from the president's office. The president's office said that the announcement should come from the defense ministry.

On Friday, South Korea's Yonhap news agency said that the country was expected to increase defense spending. Citing government officials, Yonhap said approximately 1.4 trillion won ($1.23 billion USD) has already been earmarked to buy weapons such as K-9 self-propelled howitzers and F-15K fighter jets next year.

South Korea used K-9 howitzers in response to North Korea's shelling and has deployed F-15Ks to Yeonpyeong Island. Some of the howitzers were damaged in the attack.

South Korea said Thursday that it will strengthen and supplement its rules of engagement in the Yellow Sea, following the attack on Yeonpyeong. South Korean marine forces based in five islands near North Korea and the disputed Northern Limit Line also will be reinforced, a government spokesman said

[Koala]

Interesting debate, some quick points

1) We do have a sort of MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) pact with China that prevents war, but its economic, not military in nature. China's military would put up one hell of a fight if we tried to invade China or N. Korea. But lets not go overboard. Its handful of nukes outiftted on ICBM's capable of reaching us pale in comparison to ours, we literally have 100x times more nukes that could reach China.

In the event of a war between us and China, the only country guaranteed to be wiped out is China, and it would be strictly offensive in nature for us -- China knows it would lose any nuclear exchange, and simply does not have the ability to attack the mainland U.S. with conventional weapons. Hell they dont even really have the naval ability to invade Taiwan, never mind the U.S.

As far as nukes -- they could wipe out a couple major U.S. cities, but it would come at the price of their existence. The Chinese are nothing if not pragmatic. They will not directly declare war on the U.S. over N. Korea, especially if N. Korea starts it without Chinese blessings (that would be impossible to get anyways).

2) We could topple the N. Korean regime with relative ease, without losing more than maybe 50,000 troops. Its the millions of civilian S. Koreans that are the issue.

3) Knowing #2, N. Korea only provokes S. Korea becuase it knows that we wont respond unless

S. Korea asks us to, and S. Korea's response will be underwhelming because of concern for Seoul.

4) S. Korea allows itself to be bullied to a point, thats the price of security for Seoul. The North tries to get away with whatever they can get away with. Its a complex game of chicken over there. But they dont do anything that they know would force S. Korea to go to war. When S. Korea stands emphatically draws lines in the sand, the North always respects it and backs down quietly.

This latest incident is the perfect example. S. Korea ran some military excercies, the North responded by shelling that island. S. Korea got mad and made it clear they were drawing a line in the sand -- shell us again and its war. Then they ran some excercises AGAIN, but this time the North responded by shelling THEMSELVES (their own territory), not daring to shell S. Korea again. Messsage recieved. Good for S. Korea.

[Mickalino]

South Korea stated there would be an "enormous retaliation" for the North's recent attack.

What type of enormous retaliation should we expect, or is that just rhetoric ?

[Larry]

2) We could topple the N. Korean regime with relative ease, without losing more than maybe 50,000 troops. Its the millions of civilian S. Koreans that are the issue.

Mr. President, I'm not saying we wouldn't get our hair mussed. But I do say, no more than 10 or 20 million dead. Tops.

[visionary]

A look at the aftermath on Yeonpyeong:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/11/25/sk.island.damage/index.html

Yeonpyeong Island, South Korea (CNN) -- A dog scavenges for food, the family pet now a stray. An old lady, who refuses to leave her home, rearranges the shattered bricks, as she tries to put her life back together.

Everywhere there is destruction on South Korea's tiny Yeonpyeong Island. Houses are incinerated, treasured possessions now charred remains.

It is the small things that reveal the most. The books tattered and burned. A family piano now a blackened shell, and a kitchen with charred pots and pans and a child's broken cup. Everywhere there is ash and the strong smell of smoke. Shattered glass covers the roads and burnt tiles crunch under feet. Shell craters are visible, and the walls are pockmarked with shrapnel.

North Korea rained shells on the island Tuesday and South Korea returned fire.

For about an hour a 57-year-old armistice was broken, and a war that has never really ended ignited again.

A tiny fishing village was suddenly and violently at the center of a flashpoint that some fear could tip the Korean peninsula into all out war.

CNN returned with South Korea's coast guard for an up-close look at the battle's aftermath.

The once bustling little community is now a ghost town. Hundreds of people have fled. Those who have stayed told us of the moment of terror....

She says she feels like leaving herself and is scared North Korea will hit again.

Others would like to leave but simply have nowhere to go.

"This is a fishing village. What am I going to do if I leave? People have got to come back," a man tells me.

But people won't be back. Some of those who have fled say they no longer feel safe.

They tell me they are used to conflict but not like this. Normally it is military-to-military.

The difference is that now civilians have been caught in the crossfire.

[JMS]

ummmm just because it's not isolationist to defend half the countries of the world, doesn't mean it's isolationist to let them do it themselves....

It's isolationist to say we don't have interests outside of our boarders we are willing to fight for. It's isolationist to say this is a south korean issue or that we should pull out of Nato, or not be defending Japan.

It was once believed the United States should not enter into defensive pacts with other countries, especially european countries because that could entagle us in European wars. That's why Wilson the architect fo the League of Nations was not able to convince the United States to enter that body. It's a big part of why Nazi Germany and Japan believed they could carve up the world piece meal before WWII actually started. Because one of the worlds largest economies (The United States) had no defense force of it's own to speak off and refused to enter into security treaties with her important trading partners to ensure world peace and stability.

Today we are the worlds largest economy and the worlds most powerful nation. Arguing for America to check out of our global obligations is an argument for instability and some other country to become the pre-eminant nation on earth.

does Brazil have troops defending South Korea? No. Does that mean they're isolationist? No

Belguim doesn't have troops defending South Korea either. Brazil has an economy of about 2 trillion dollars a year. about 14% of that of the United States.

It's different matter when the worlds largest super power removes itself from security considerations; It's another matter for a relatively small economy to not over reach.

[JMS]

South Korea stated there would be an "enormous retaliation" for the North's recent attack.

What type of enormous retaliation should we expect, or is that just rhetoric ?

It's rhetoric. South Korea is a very prosperous country. The last thing in the world they want is a war.

[twa]

It's different matter when the worlds largest super power removes itself from security considerations; It's another matter for a relatively small economy to not over reach.

What do you feel China's role should be in this?....are they shirking the responsibility that comes with their growing status?

[visionary]

Some more comments from China:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/11/26/koreas.crisis/index.html?hpt=T1

China appears to criticize U.S.-South Korean military exercise

Seoul, South Korea (CNN) -- Tensions between the Koreas remained high Friday as China appeared to criticize the U.S.-South Korean military exercise set to begin Sunday in the Yellow Sea off the west coast of the Korean Peninsula.

"We oppose any party to take any military acts in our exclusive economic zone without permission," Foreign Ministry spokesman Hong Lei said in a statement, according to the state-run Xinhua News Agency.

He said that international law of the sea says that an exclusive economic zone stretches 200 nautical miles from the coast.

The United States is sending the aircraft carrier USS George Washington to join South Korea's forces near the coasts of China and North Korea in the four-day drill. It is set to begin five days after North Korea shelled a South Korean island, killing four South Koreans and wounding 15 others.

Xinhua quoted Chinese scholars who also criticized the planned drill by U.S. and South Korean (Republic of Korea) forces. "The United States and ROK should not take sensitive and provocative military actions at such a sensitive time and place," said Major General Luo Yuan, a researcher with the Chinese People's Liberation Army's Military Science Academy.

He likened the planned exercise to "pouring oil onto flames."

But China, North Korea's largest trading partner, also called for an easing of tensions. "As the Korean Peninsula situation is highly complicated and sensitive, all parties concerned should stay calm and exercise restraint," Hong said.

[visionary]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/11/27/south.korea.protests/index.html?hpt=T1

Seoul, South Korea (CNN) -- Members of the South Korean military protested on the streets of the nation's capital Saturday, stating that they were angry that their country's government had not done enough to respond to recent shelling by North Korea.

One group of protesters gathered near the defense ministry building Saturday. The crowd clashed with police officers, some charging and kicking officers.

[HighOnHendrix]

Larry gets bonus points for the Dr. Stranglove reference. :thumbsup:

[twa]

This is not encouraging

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/expats-recalled-as-north-korea-prepares-for-war-2145018.html

A mass exodus of North Korean workers from the Far East of Russia is under way, according to reports coming out of the region. As the two Koreas edged towards the brink of war this week, it appears that the workers in Russia have been called back to aid potential military operations.

Vladnews agency, based in Vladivostok, reported that North Korean workers had left the town of Nakhodka en masse shortly after the escalation of tension on the Korean peninsula earlier this week. "Traders have left the kiosks and markets, workers have abandoned building sites, and North Korean secret service employees working in the region have joined them and left," the agency reported.

[visionary]

This is not encouraging

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/expats-recalled-as-north-korea-prepares-for-war-2145018.html

A mass exodus of North Korean workers from the Far East of Russia is under way, according to reports coming out of the region. As the two Koreas edged towards the brink of war this week, it appears that the workers in Russia have been called back to aid potential military operations.

Vladnews agency, based in Vladivostok, reported that North Korean workers had left the town of Nakhodka en masse shortly after the escalation of tension on the Korean peninsula earlier this week. "Traders have left the kiosks and markets, workers have abandoned building sites, and North Korean secret service employees working in the region have joined them and left," the agency reported.

Why were they still in Russia in the first place?

And if they've been away from NK for a while, why would they go back willingly?

Weird.

[Mickalino]

So, where's our very own Nobel Peace Prize Winner during all of this Korean strife ?

[twa]

Why were they still in Russia in the first place?

And if they've been away from NK for a while, why would they go back willingly?

Weird.

Work,which generates greatly needed funds for the homeland

They do not have freedom

Hopefully there is another explanation and the recall is not widespread.

[grhqofb5]

So, where's our very own Nobel Peace Prize Winner during all of this Korean strife ?

Loggin 20 pts and 9 boards a game, to go along with 12 stiches.

Seriously, what could Obama say now that could possibily ease tensions? Perhaps issue a joint statement with the Chinease Priemer (dictator??)?

[twa]

Seriously, what could Obama say now that could possibily ease tensions? Perhaps issue a joint statement with the Chinease Priemer (dictator??)?

He's into damned if ya do/don't territory.

Catching flack for not sending a carrier after the earlier sinking and now for sending one

[Larry]

Why were they still in Russia in the first place?

And if they've been away from NK for a while, why would they go back willingly?

Weird.

Yeah, I get lots of questions about that story.

Like, what has NK got that Russia doesn't already have, on their own? Why is Russia bringing people in from NK?

And I agree, visionary. I would think that, compared to NK, being employed as a guest worker in Vladivostok must look like Disney World.

[Larry]

He's into damned if ya do/don't territory.

Catching flack for not sending a carrier after the earlier sinking and now for sending one

You don't mean that no matter what he does, a certain group in the US is going to criticize him, do you?

I'm shocked.

[sjinhan]

So, where's our very own Nobel Peace Prize Winner during all of this Korean strife ?

IMHO everyone involved needs to play this slow. Fast and over reaction will be playing into North Koreas hands...

[abdcskins]

I have a bad feeling about this one. I can see those war games tomorrow angering North Korea and them going off violently. Why can't we just postpone them considering the tension that exists currently? That would seem the prudent thing to do. Sometimes I wish we would just stay out of other country's issues.

[grhqofb5]

You don't mean that no matter what he does, a certain group in the US is going to criticize him, do you?.

Yes... Yes.... And there is a certain group that is going to defend him no matter what as well. I think we have it figured out. The only question now is whether we should go public with this information. I say we keep it between you and me for now, but maybe sell it to wikileaks in a couple months after this situation simmers down a bit.

[JMS]

I have a bad feeling about this one. I can see those war games tomorrow angering North Korea and them going off violently. Why can't we just postpone them considering the tension that exists currently? That would seem the prudent thing to do. Sometimes I wish we would just stay out of other country's issues.

It's pretty doubtful they will be anywhere near north korea or china for that matter. They will probable be off the south east coast of south korea a hungred miles or more from North Korea.

We have no interest in provoking N. Korea, only showing solidarity with South Korea.

[JMS]

What do you feel China's role should be in this?....are they shirking the responsibility that comes with their growing status?

There is a fundimental disagreement with China whether North Korea is a loose cannon or being provoked. Obviously we in the west feel that China isn't doing enough to leash it's dog.

Personally I have a different thought. I don't think china wants to be bothered. I think China believes N. Korea will just ignore them if they get tough. We in the est believe this won't happen because China gives so much aid to N. Korea. But I think China does that for selfish reasons. China doesn't want their boarder to be over run by hungry refugees, so they try to make N. Korea as liveable as possible.

Over all the answer to your question is china is not yet a global military power. Just a regional power. She is definitely still trying to figure her new place out in the world

[JMS]

Some more comments from China:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/11/26/koreas.crisis/index.html?hpt=T1

China appears to criticize U.S.-South Korean military exercise

That's why CNN sucks..... A year ago when we last heald these exersizes with South Korea, china protested and didn't want them heald in her economic sphere of interest... ( diplomatic talk for 200 miles from her boarders )... whcih rules out the entire yellow sea. So we held them in the sea of japan... This time China just isn't protesting us holding these manuvers in the yellow sea off the coast of South Korea, they just don't want us off their own coast. That's progress, not critism.