CNN: Report: N. Korea fires on S. Korea, injuring at least 16

[visionary]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/11/24/north.korea.seoul.under.gun/index.html?hpt=T1

An update of sorts. Not really any new news though.

Just some background info and quotes from people in Seoul.

Things seem to have mostly quieted down since the attacks.

Here's some more news:

US warships head to Yellow Sea for military drills

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/11/24/koreas.crisis/index.html?hpt=T1

"It is a long-planned exercise," said Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff.

"That said, it is meant to send a very strong signal of deterrence and also work with our very close allies in South Korea," Mullen said on CNN's "Fareed Zakaria GPS." "We're very focused on restraint --- not letting this thing get out of control. The South Koreans so far have responded that way. Nobody wants this thing to turn into a conflict."

Two South Korean marines were killed in the attack and the bodies of two civilians were found at a construction site.

The attack also injured 15 South Korean soldiers and three civilians, South Korea said.

"We have come to the judgment that what happened on Yeonpyeong Island was a definite military provocation against the Republic of Korea," said a statement from South Korean President Lee.

"The fact that they have indiscriminately fired upon a defenseless civilian zone was a brutally inhumane action, an illegal and intentional action against the U.N. constitution and the armistice between the North and South Korea."

The South was on high alert, but said it was calmly considering its actions.

After Tuesday's incident, all eyes turned to China, which supplies North Korea with food, fuel and weapons.

"We regret the casualties and property losses, and are concerned about the situation," the Chinese foreign ministry said in a statement released Wednesday.

"China strongly urges that both sides retain calm and restrain, and engage in talks as quickly as possible in order to prevent similar incidents from happening again," the statement said. "Relevant parties should contribute more to efforts that will ease tensions and benefit the peace and stability of the peninsula. We are ready to make joint efforts with them."

[Predicto]

Couldn't we do a massive Shock and Awe and simultaneously bomb all of their missile launchers with hundreds of fighter planes before they have a chance to shell Seoul ?

No. Seoul is only 35 miles away from thousands of entrenched artillery tubes.

Read this.

http://www.businessinsider.com/map-of-the-day-how-north-korea-could-destroy-seoul-in-two-hours-2010-5

[Larry]

No. Seoul is only 35 miles away from thousands of entrenched artillery tubes.

Read this.

http://www.businessinsider.com/map-of-the-day-how-north-korea-could-destroy-seoul-in-two-hours-2010-5

And, because these two enemies (who are still technically at war) are so close to each other, both sides operate under the assumption that they could be subject to sneak attack at any instant. Everything military is dug in, and dispersed.

(Only thing thing that isn't underground are the civilians.)

[visionary]

What Will China's Next Move on North Korea Be?

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2033011,00.html?hpt=T1

Smoke was still billowing from Yeonpyeong, the South Korean island that endured a barrage of North Korean artillery fire on Nov. 23, when China's state-run network CCTV led its news program with the conflagration on the Korean peninsula. A natural move, it would seem, given that it was one of the worst border conflicts between the two Koreas in half a century, in which at least two South Korean marines died. But even though the video footage appeared to clearly show North Korea initiating the attack on Yeonpyeong, the CCTV newscast took a different stance. Blame was not apportioned to the North. Instead, the program quoted a North Korean official who claimed that it was actually South Korea that had struck first. While a chorus of nations quickly condemned North Korea for its belligerence, China, as usual, chose to dissemble....

[Hubbs]

Couldn't we do a massive Shock and Awe and simultaneously bomb all of their missile launchers with hundreds of fighter planes before they have a chance to shell Seoul ?

You really want to risk millions of lives on faith in our ability to be absolutely sure we know where every NK nuke is?

(Hell, they wouldn't even need nukes. As others have said, even if we take out their nukes, thousands upon thousands of artillery shells would be raining down upon Seoul within minutes.)

[Mickalino]

You really want to risk millions of lives on faith in our ability to be absolutely sure we know where every NK nuke is?

(Hell, they wouldn't even need nukes. As others have said, even if we take out their nukes, thousands upon thousands of artillery shells would be raining down upon Seoul within minutes.)

But do you really want to risk millions and millions more lives, by allowing NK to continue to build up their arsenal ? They're not just going to walk away.

[Hubbs]

Oh my God... I can't stop laughing...

On Wednesday, Sarah Palin weighed in on the recent military attacks by North Korea against South Korea. Appearing on fellow Fox News contributor Glenn Beck's radio show, for just a moment, her position didn't exactly fall in line with accepted U.S. foreign policy.

"This speaks to a bigger picture here that certainly scares me in terms of our national security policy," Palin said. "But obviously we've gotta stand with our North Korean allies."

I don't care that this was probably just a goof-up like Obama's "57 states" moment. The fact that it's Palin makes a huge difference. She's the gift that keeps on giving. I finally know what it was like to enjoy the Dan Quayle Experience.

[Hubbs]

But do you really want to risk millions and millions more lives, by allowing NK to continue to build up their arsenal ? They're not just going to walk away.

Erm... the longer the uneasy cease-fire goes on, the larger South Korea's advantage becomes. The waiting game favors the south, not the north.

[visionary]

Oh my God... I can't stop laughing...

I don't care that this was probably just a goof-up like Obama's "57 states" moment. The fact that it's Palin makes a huge difference. She's the gift that keeps on giving. I finally know what it was like to enjoy the Dan Quayle Experience.

Oh, man.

Maybe we can send her to North Korea.

Wait...maybe she's a spy.

:evilg:

[Mickalino]

Oh my God... I can't stop laughing...

I don't care that this was probably just a goof-up like Obama's "57 states" moment. The fact that it's Palin makes a huge difference. She's the gift that keeps on giving. I finally know what it was like to enjoy the Dan Quayle Experience.

Give her a break, man.

She probably can't see North and South Korea from her back porch.

[Metalhead]

Erm... the longer the uneasy cease-fire goes on, the larger South Korea's advantage becomes. The waiting game favors the south, not the north.

What is the South's advantage? I don't really see one for them. The longer they wait, the more they suffer unprovoked attacks. The South already appears afraid to retaliate (despite verbal claims) and the rest of the world hasn't done anything yet either. NK pushes a little more every time. It's the cliche "damned if you do..."

[Mickalino]

Erm... the longer the uneasy cease-fire goes on, the larger South Korea's advantage becomes. The waiting game favors the south, not the north.

How so ?

[visionary]

You really want to risk millions of lives on faith in our ability to be absolutely sure we know where every NK nuke is?

(Hell, they wouldn't even need nukes. As others have said, even if we take out their nukes, thousands upon thousands of artillery shells would be raining down upon Seoul within minutes.)

This whole artillery situation really depresses me, because what can anyone do if they start shooting Seoul in small amounts at a time?

Like every month they blow something up and kill a few people, but never enough to make it worth attacking back substantially and risking an all out shelling from them.

[skinfan133]

I'm probably not going to be posting very often around here any more, so I may fade from the ES consciousness, but I will chime in here:

I do not want to die in Korea. I hope this last artifact of the Cold War will go away soon.

The Chinese deterant which Truman delicately tip toed around in the 1950's is today in N. Korea's possession.

I really don't want to come off as a dick, but China did not have a nuclear weapon until 1964. Just to clarify.

[twa]

Erm... the longer the uneasy cease-fire goes on, the larger South Korea's advantage becomes. The waiting game favors the south, not the north.

Many in the South disagree

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/TOE6AN06M.htm

South Korean President Lee Myung-bak's government was criticised at home on Wednesday for its slow response to a North Korean attack, with lawmakers and media saying it was now time to get tough.

Lee has vowed a firm response to Tuesday's attack by North Korea, but Seoul too has no desire for a serious conflict. While North Korea would certainly lose any war, it would be able to do enormous damage to the South with its vast artillery.

Lee won office in 2008 vowing to take an uncompromising stand with neighouring North Korea, but for the second time this year his conservative government is being criticised for being indecisive in responding to crises involving the mercurial state.

In March, Lee's government was criticised for responding too slowly to the sinking of a South Korean warship in the same area. Forty-six sailors were killed in the attack the South blamed on the North. Pyongyang said it wasn't to blame.

A day after the North fired a barrage of artillery shells at the island of Yeonpyeong, killing two civilians and soldiers, members of Lee's own party and opposition lawmakers accused the South's military of being too weak and responding too late.

In a fiery parliamentary hearing, Defence Minister Kim Tae-young was grilled by lawmakers who said the government should have taken quicker and stronger retaliatory measures against the North's provocation.

"I am sorry that the government has not carried out ruthless bombing through jet fighters during the North's second round of shelling," Kim Jang-soo, a lawmaker of the ruling Grand National Party and a former defence minister, was quoted as saying by Yonhap news agency during the national defence committee.

"Why did we shoot only 80 shells even as the North fired 170?" asked Sim Dae-pyung, chairman of the minor opposition People First Party.

[JMS]

Oh my God... I can't stop laughing...

I don't care that this was probably just a goof-up like Obama's "57 states" moment. The fact that it's Palin makes a huge difference. She's the gift that keeps on giving. I finally know what it was like to enjoy the Dan Quayle Experience.

Too bad it wasn't on Video... John Stewart would be playing that for weeks.

[visionary]

Many in the South disagree

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/TOE6AN06M.htm

South Korean President Lee Myung-bak's government was criticised at home on Wednesday for its slow response to a North Korean attack, with lawmakers and media saying it was now time to get tough.

Interesting. Maybe they'll beef up their military some more.

(although it doesn't seem like there's much they can do defensively)

[JMS]

I really don't want to come off as a dick, but China did not have a nuclear weapon until 1964. Just to clarify.

Yeah but China was the key in the Korean war to avoiding the soviet unions bombs. The entire war was a delicate dance to avoid nuclear escalation.

McAurthor's original push from Inchon to the Chosin Reservoir stoped just short of the Boarder with China. McAurthor had strict orders not to go into China and he had reassured Truman that China would not come to North Korea's aid. China veiwed the US forces on her boarders as an existential threat and threw her army at the UN forces at Chosin (mostly british and american). And rolled them back bellow the 38th parrellel..

It was understood the Soviet Union did not consider Korea under their nuclear deterant umbrulla, China was another matter.. That's why never again did Truman allow the US forces to approach the Chinese boarder after Chosin in Dec 1950.. That's why we fought a stalemate engagement from 51-53 never again approaching China. It's what drove McAurthor nuts and eventually brought Matthew Ridgeway in to replace him.

[skinfan133]

Yeah but China was the key in the Korean war to avoiding the soviet unions bombs. The entire war was a delicate dance to avoid nuclear escalation.

McAurthor's original push from Inchon to the Chosin Reservoir stoped just short of the Boarder with China. McAurthor had strict orders not to go into China and he had reassured Truman that China would not come to North Korea's aid. China veiwed the US forces on her boarders as an existential threat and threw her army at the UN forces at Chosin (mostly british and american). And rolled them back bellow the 38th parrellel..

It was understood the Soviet Union did not consider Korea under their nuclear deterant umbrulla, China was another matter.. That's why never again did Truman allow the US forces to approach the Chinese boarder after Chosin in Dec 1950.. That's why we fought a stalemate engagement from 51-53 never again approaching China. It's what drove McAurthor nuts and eventually brought Matthew Ridgeway in to replace him.

I'm well aware of all that, It just sounded like you were claiming China had nuclear weapons during the war. My bad

[JMS]

How so ?

Because the North is starving to death and can barely equip it's army. South Korea is one of the top 20 economies in the world and North Korea has gone backwards econmically since the Japanese invasion.

Also the cheap elvis impersonator who rules that country is sick and they are brining in new leadership. Which also is good for us and bad for the status quoe.

You can't argue in favor of a new Korea war. We had 500,000 guys there in the 1950's and were terrible outnumbered. Who wants to go and poke a nuclear country with such a massive army in the eye just because they like to poke us in the eye. I'd rather save our money and lives and just ignore them.

[Predicto]

Oh my God... I can't stop laughing...

I don't care that this was probably just a goof-up like Obama's "57 states" moment. The fact that it's Palin makes a huge difference. She's the gift that keeps on giving. I finally know what it was like to enjoy the Dan Quayle Experience.

It's funny, but it is actually exactly the same as Obama's 57 states thing. Just a minor verbal gaffe.

The real problem was when she was running for Vice President, Plain quite literally did not know why North and South Korea were separated in the first place. Or so the McCain staffers have said. Now that is scary.

[skinfan133]

It's funny, but it is actually exactly the same as Obama's 57 states thing. Just a minor verbal gaffe.

The real problem was when she was running for Vice President, Plain quite literally did not know why North and South Korea were separated in the first place. Or so the McCain staffers have said. Now that is scary.

And she could be making decisions about this very issue in 2012. As the commander in chief. as my commander in chief. :twitch:

[JMS]

Interesting. Maybe they'll beef up their military some more.

(although it doesn't seem like there's much they can do defensively)

South Korea and North Korea are militarily near mirrors of each other. They both have the same doctrine... Numbers Win... North Korea has the second largest military in the world behind Russia, which coined the numbers doctrine. South Korea has the third largest army in the world. China is number 6. We are number 8.

Both North Korea and South Korea have about 9 million men under arms. We have only 2.4 million men under arms.. China 3.5 million men.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_troops

In 2009 South Korea spent 26 billion on their army. The US 640 Billion.. China 100 billion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures#SIPRI_Yearbook_2010

It's hard to get current numbers for N. Korean spending.. In 2003 it was estimated they spent only 5 billion.

The US and now China take the opposite approach as the Korea's....Its Quality over Quantity.

[Mickalino]

Also the cheap elvis impersonator who rules that country is sick and they are brining in new leadership. Which also is good for us and bad for the status quoe.

So you believe is son is going to be that much better a leader ?

[JMS]

So you believe is son is going to be that much better a leader ?

Here is what I know about his son... He got detained at the Japanese airport with his wife and child trying to sneak into Disney World.... The Japanese got suspicious of his documents and detained him... He said.. "dudes, I'm the sone of Kim Jong-il". Japan which had no diplomatic contacts with N. Korea asked china to confirm his identiy. China said it wasn't him. Then came back a day latter and said, um... you bertter let him go..

Japan deported him to China.

As idiotic as that was, I'm thinking a guy who trys to sneak into disney world is more in touch than the current leader is there. (1) He knows about Disney World. (2) He wanted to take his son there..

I think that's a guy we might be able to do business with.

http://stopamoment.typepad.com/disney_journeys/2009/06/what-would-you-do-for-a-disney-vacation.html

What would you do for a Disney vacation?

Trip to Disneyland ends in arrest for North Korea's heir

By Richard Lloyd Parry in Tokyo

Japanese authorities have arrested the son and grandson of Kim Jong II, the hereditary ruler of North Korea, as they attempted to visit Disneyland in Tokyo.

Japanese Authorities are detaining the son and grandson of Kim Jong Il, the hereditary ruler of North Korea, after the family attempted to visit Disneyland in Tokyo.

Kim Jong Nam was held on Tuesday at Narita airport in Tokyo with his wife and infant son when he tried to enter the country using a fake passport. After insisting that he was from the Dominican Republic, he then admitted his identity and is being held with his family in an immigration detention centre, pending their deportation.

Kim Jong Nam, 29, is the eldest known son of Mr Kim and is regarded as the designated heir to the world's last remaining Stalinist dictatorship. Japan's Kyodo news agency reported that he told police: "I wanted to go to Disneyland."