Suffering from Front Office Bi Polar Disorder

[KDawg]

First, I think anyone who wants to see Shanahan canned at this point is seriously not remembering what we had in place prior to this front office.

But, moving on to the point of this thread...

I don't think this front office knows exactly what it wants to be.

We have moves that have occured on the win now side of the coin and the rebuilding side of the coin. There is an argument that you can do both at the same time, however it feels like we've been doing both for the last 20 years and have yielded very little in the way of results.

It's my philosophy, that at this point, we need to pick one and stick with it, and for the record it's my opinion that we need to hit the reset button and rebuild this team.

Here's how I break the moves down:

Win Now

-Trading draft picks for Donovan McNabb

-Trading a draft pick for Jamaal Brown

-Keeping young receivers such as Terrence Austin on the practice squad while older unreliable players have a place on the active roster.

-Signing Larry Johnson and Willie Parker (who have since been cut)

-Keeping Andre Carter on the roster despite the ill fit for his position

-Replacing the slew of veterans we released on Bruce Allen's revival with a slew of old veterans.

Rebuild

-Getting rid of Johnson/Parker in favor of Keiland Williams/Ryan Torain

-Installing a new defensive system with personnel that doesn't fit.

-Not acquiring Randy Moss (which for the record, I'm in favor of)

-Not acquiring different offensive line personnel. Pickings were slim, and continue to be, but with guys like Kevin Mawae on the free agent market, who is a clear upgrade over Rabach, we appear to be rebuilding. However, Rabach himself is old and we're not giving anyone else a shot at center, which is a win now move ()

-Anthony Armstrong seeing significant time

-Releasing the slew of vets we released upon Bruce Allen's arrival in DC.

There are probably many, many more on either side of the coin. However, the point is we're trying to do both things at once. Some don't believe that this fanbase would stomach a rebuild, but I beg to differ. If it was put out in front of them that we are going to build a young nucleus and build the systems around that talent, I think people would be accepting. The problem is we were told that we should have expectations for this football team. That backfires immediately when you begin to lose.

The McNabb situation is a cluster. No one knows what his status will be next year, despite what experts/insiders have said. McNabb and Brown were clear win now moves and there is a possibility that neither is on the roster come next season. Trading draft picks for players when you're in rebuild mode is not good mojo. Those picks could have been used to at least get a feeler on some young talent. No, draft picks don't always work out, but at least you're giving yourself a chance at getting younger.

To be fair, by not signing Randy Moss or Kevin Mawae, it looks like we're entering rebuild mode, as does the benching of McNabb. But doing it this way is a way that is sure to upset fans. Why? Because we were told to have expectations.

McNabb will be the starter next week again, and he's the best QB on our roster, so he should be. But my issue was with giving up picks for a guy on a team that wasn't ready to compete for a title this year.

These are mistakes that will hurt Shanahan/Allen, but it doesn't damn them, either. They can still right the ship. Next year we should have more pieces of the puzzle in place, and if we can keep our draft picks in future years and stockpile them, then trading for the occasional vet won't hurt much. Let's acquire some picks and build this team from the ground up.

Now, let me also say this: I don't see it happening, but if this team were to compete now and win a Super Bowl I'd be the first one to pull up this post and rag on me for being wrong. But it's not happening. Not with this team. Not yet. I believe that the guys we have in charge are smart football people who made some bad decisions that can be fixed and I won't give up on them quite yet. But it's a rocky start.

Let's evaluate what happens after this season and make a decision, one way or the other. Are we in rebuild mode or in win now mode? I'm fine with either, although I obviously prefer a rebuild. But we need a clear vision and right now our vision is anything but clear.

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

Look at the last part of your argument and tell me you weren't being hypocritical.

The problem is flushing away all of the **** at once while still fielding a team. I believe that Bang had posted something in relative details. I'll find it later...

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

getting mcnabb was not win now. getting mcnabb was "we'd rather be 8-8 than 3-13 and we're willing to trade a few draft picks for it". mcnabb keeps us competitive while we rebuild everything: RB/WR/OL/entire defense. i have no doubt that we'll be drafting a QB in the next 1-2 years and he will take over for mcnabb, and hopefully by that point we'll have some talent surrounding our new QB that itll make life easier for him.

im usually of the "draft QB fist, build everything later" but allen seems to wanna do it the other way. thats fine by me as long as it works, and it was clear that outside of bradford last year there were no other QBs to take. we need to give this 2 years to playout, we cant be making judgment calls after half a season.

[PeterMP]

getting mcnabb was not win now. getting mcnabb was "we'd rather be 8-8 than 3-13 and we're willing to trade a few draft picks for it". mcnabb keeps us competitive while we rebuild everything: RB/WR/OL/entire defense. i have no doubt that we'll be drafting a QB in the next 1-2 years and he will take over for mcnabb, and hopefully by that point we'll have some talent surrounding our new QB that itll make life easier for him.

im usually of the "draft QB fist, build everything later" but allen seems to wanna do it the other way. thats fine by me as long as it works, and it was clear that outside of bradford last year there were no other QBs to take. we need to give this 2 years to playout, we cant be making judgment calls after half a season.

But being 8-8 actually makes it harder to rebuild because through out the draft your picks are worse.

There is value in being REALLY REALLY bad in terms of rebuilding.

Much less losing the picks makes it much harder to get the new talent to put around the new QB.

[Dick Edds]

great post, when I look at team like the Rams and the Lions ... I get a little jealous. They suffered for several years, but their 4-4 and 2-5 records look so much more promising ... because they ARE young teams with franchise QB's and are playing above their fan base's expectations. They are improving each week and each year and have a strong nucleus of young players to build around.

We are 4-4, but it;s different ... we've been on the lucky side of the coin for several of those wins, and while our defense continues to carry us ... there is still really a lot "what if's" on our roster. Bottom line, we do need to make some trades again this off-season and cut some more of our aging vets. It's always sad to see certain players go, but I think we've all past that point. It's time to get young and build this the right way for the future.

I guess I am flip-flopping here, and I do believe in ShanAllen ... but I just want to see "improvement" from week to week and year to year more than anything else. Regardless we need to get some serious help on our offense. Some legit weapons for McNabb and some legit OL'man to protect him.

Damn ... Bradford looks like the real deal ... I was in the "Backers of Bradford" club, and still am being even more impressed with his play and his composure. I think he's gonna be a good one. So is Stafford with the Lions.

[SMOSS89]

When Shanahan was hired, Adam Schef said he wants to both win now and rebuild for the future.

Don't know if that's possible, but that's what he wants and his moves have shown that.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

But being 8-8 actually makes it harder to rebuild because through out the draft your picks are worse.

There is value in being REALLY REALLY bad in terms of rebuilding.

Much less losing the picks makes it much harder to get the new talent to put around the new QB.

i agree, but having the 4th overall pick isnt THAT much better than having the 14th. i mean we found orakpo at #13 didnt we?

first round value is still valuable. while i do agree that just tanking it to get better draft picks can help rebuild (St louis, Detroit), its not completely necessary to be horrible in order to rebuild. having smart people in charge making smart draft picks is what counts. the steelers and pats are always drafting in the late parts of rounds yet theyre always finding pertinent talent for their teams.

[bird_1972]

i agree, but having the 4th overall pick isnt THAT much better than having the 14th. i mean we found orakpo at #13 didnt we?

first round value is still valuable. while i do agree that just tanking it to get better draft picks can help rebuild (St louis, Detroit), its not completely necessary to be horrible in order to rebuild. having smart people in charge making smart draft picks is what counts. the steelers and pats are always drafting in the late parts of rounds yet theyre always finding pertinent talent for their teams.

Look at the Pats.

They have been able to stockpile picks and rebuild the defense all while staying comfortably above .500. We just need a competent scouting dept. I have yet to see the staffing up in this area I was hoping for when Allen took over.

[Metalhead]

Very good post KDawg. This has been my concern as well. Acquiring McNabb was "win now", but the o-line is a patch-work of players while installing a new offense. And bringing in washed-up vet RB's.

I still don't like the fact that we got McNabb, due to how the offense was situated at the time. As a player he is good but it was not the time to spend a high second rounder on an old qb with one year on his contract. Imo, it was a critical bad decision.

[MassSkinsFan]

We have moves that have occured on the win now side of the coin and the rebuilding side of the coin. There is an argument that you can do both at the same time, however it feels like we've been doing both for the last 20 years and have yielded very little in the way of results.

Let's evaluate what happens after this season and make a decision, one way or the other. Are we in rebuild mode or in win now mode? I'm fine with either, although I obviously prefer a rebuild. But we need a clear vision and right now our vision is anything but clear.

I'd say we've been trying to win now (mostly) for the last 20 years. Certainly under the Vinny administration we were in win-now mode, with a side of befuddlement and sacks and stuff. My point is that we have an improved FO, and being able to do both (win now and rebuild) is within the realm of possibility for these guys, whereas tying their own shoes wasn't for the previous regime.

I'm not sure I agree with your last statement either. The vision may not be to your liking, but I think given the way these guys operate, there is a clear plan.

[polywog999]

Being someone who is bi-polar I think you are being very disrespectful. Not all bi-polar people act irrationally or fall off of their "mood swing" while rocking back and forth.

That is all.....thank you.

[Mursilis]

Nice post.

To be fair, by not signing Randy Moss or Kevin Mawae, it looks like we're entering rebuild mode, as does the benching of McNabb.

That would only be true if we replaced McNabb with a young prospect, but sending in Rex Grossman instead? Makes no sense. He's not the future either. I'd have preferred they kept Colt instead of Rex. Sure, odds are Colt wouldn't have been a second coming of Brady (a great 6th round steal), but we already know the whole story on Rex, who is who we thought he was - a turnover machine. When Shanazorn sent in Rexy, he told him to go score six, but never said for which team, and there you go.

[MassSkinsFan]

Being someone who is bi-polar I think you are being very disrespectful. Not all bi-polar people act irrationally or fall off of their "mood swing" while rocking back and forth.

That is all.....thank you.

Wouldn't split personality have been a better descriptor for the OP title?

[TD_washingtonredskins]

When Shanahan was hired, Adam Schef said he wants to both win now and rebuild for the future.

Don't know if that's possible, but that's what he wants and his moves have shown that.

First of all...good thread and OP. Secondly, I agree with this. Allen and Shanahan are trying to have their cake and eat it too. I also don't know if that will work, but I think it's clear that we're not in full-blown "win-now" or "rebuild" mode. I would assume (hope) that, if forced to make a decision, we will choose rebuild. Maybe Shanahan believes he can use some of his picks as currency to bring in established players and still infuse the roster with youth. Look at some of the low-round picks/UDFAs who are contributing right now...Armstrong, Banks, Torain, K. Williams, Lichtensteiger, etc. Now, I'm not saying that those guys are all solutions at their positions, but you have to assume that if our front office believes they can hit on 4-5 of those guys each off-season, draft picks become less valuable to them. There are also guys in our pipeline (practice squad) who you have to assume the staff is high on (Austin, Capers, Davis, etc.).

I'm rambling, but in short I agree. I think we're trying to do two things. In the end though, we're a team that probably only has about 25% of its eventual contributors on the active roster right now.

[Mursilis]

i agree, but having the 4th overall pick isnt THAT much better than having the 14th. i mean we found orakpo at #13 didnt we?

Unless it's a QB-rich draft, having a top 5 pick usually means getting a shot at the best QB prospect in the draft. You don't get that same shot at picks 10-15.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Unless it's a QB-rich draft, having a top 5 pick usually means getting a shot at the best QB prospect in the draft. You don't get that same shot at picks 10-15.

true, in order to get those bluechip QBs you usually have to pick in the top 5.

we could always trade up too if theres someone there we really want. but i dont think tanking a year to save one draft pick is a worthwhile trade.

[Duckus]

I don't think our front office bases personnel moves on the win now or rebuild mindset. I think if you try and look at their moves within that mindset it looks scattered and confused. But if you look at it through team players/leaders v individuals the moves start to make a lot more sense.

They got McNabb because he was an instant offensive team leader. Something we have lacked for decades. They got Jamal Brown to be a rock and oline leader over the next several years as they bring in a ton of young and less experienced talent. Were going to see some new faces on the online over the next 2-3 years, and I think the front office wanted a vet they could pair with Trent to build around.

The other moves are role players who buy into a system. I think they look for players (and don't care how old or young they are) who buy into the system, will commit to their roles, and be a positive element in the locker room.

They believe that if they have enough leaders, surrounded by enough talented role players they will be successful.

Then again - I have no idea. None of us do, but that is my guess.

[TheLongshot]

getting mcnabb was not win now. getting mcnabb was "we'd rather be 8-8 than 3-13 and we're willing to trade a few draft picks for it". mcnabb keeps us competitive while we rebuild everything: RB/WR/OL/entire defense. i have no doubt that we'll be drafting a QB in the next 1-2 years and he will take over for mcnabb, and hopefully by that point we'll have some talent surrounding our new QB that itll make life easier for him.

Not sure what your smoking, but getting McNabb was certainly a "win now" move. You don't trade a couple high picks to get a guy to just be competitive. You make the trade because you think he can help the team attain the goal of making the playoffs and going to the Superbowl. That doesn't preclude drafting a QB at some point, but like Gibbs trading for Brunell, the goal of the move is to win now rather than later.

im usually of the "draft QB fist, build everything later" but allen seems to wanna do it the other way. thats fine by me as long as it works, and it was clear that outside of bradford last year there were no other QBs to take. we need to give this 2 years to playout, we cant be making judgment calls after half a season.

Well, really you should be starting with the OL first, then get the QB. If you don't have an OL, the QB isn't going to do you much good. Unfortunately, the draft isn't a grocery store where you can get everything on your shopping list. Often, you either need to pick what is available to you and fill in where you can, or you make a trade to put yourself in position to pick the player you want.

[Mursilis]

getting mcnabb was not win now. getting mcnabb was "we'd rather be 8-8 than 3-13 and we're willing to trade a few draft picks for it".

Which is still dumb. Out of the playoffs at 8-8 is the same as out of the playoffs at 3-13. Might as well have kept Campbell then - he can do mediocre, plus we would have kept the draft picks and likely had a higher one next year!

[KDawg]

Look at the last part of your argument and tell me you weren't being hypocritical.

I wasn't being hypocritical.

The problem is flushing away all of the **** at once while still fielding a team. I believe that Bang had posted something in relative details. I'll find it later...

That doesn't mean we needed to sign Joey Galloway and Roydell Williams, or Larry Johnson and Willie Parker. We could have fielded a team without signing the AARP crew

getting mcnabb was not win now. getting mcnabb was "we'd rather be 8-8 than 3-13 and we're willing to trade a few draft picks for it". mcnabb keeps us competitive while we rebuild everything: RB/WR/OL/entire defense. i have no doubt that we'll be drafting a QB in the next 1-2 years and he will take over for mcnabb, and hopefully by that point we'll have some talent surrounding our new QB that itll make life easier for him.

And I feel this is a strategic error. McNabb allows us to be mediocre. Hooray. A repeat of the last 20 years. Had we had a good team in place and made the move, I would have been ecstatic. And it's not McNabb's fault for the situation, either.

im usually of the "draft QB fist, build everything later" but allen seems to wanna do it the other way. thats fine by me as long as it works, and it was clear that outside of bradford last year there were no other QBs to take. we need to give this 2 years to playout, we cant be making judgment calls after half a season.

No one is. This is a common saying here. We're discussing. Evaluate after the season, but I don't agree with the moves we've made. I think I said as much in the OP, though I may have worded it differently.

But being 8-8 actually makes it harder to rebuild because through out the draft your picks are worse.

There is value in being REALLY REALLY bad in terms of rebuilding.

Much less losing the picks makes it much harder to get the new talent to put around the new QB.

Hammer, meet the nail

When Shanahan was hired, Adam Schef said he wants to both win now and rebuild for the future.

Don't know if that's possible, but that's what he wants and his moves have shown that.

I don't think it's really possible at all. The Rams and Chiefs did it the right way. Buffalo hasn't, Washington hasn't. We've just got the money to spend on better misfits than they do.

i agree, but having the 4th overall pick isnt THAT much better than having the 14th. i mean we found orakpo at #13 didnt we?

first round value is still valuable. while i do agree that just tanking it to get better draft picks can help rebuild (St louis, Detroit), its not completely necessary to be horrible in order to rebuild. having smart people in charge making smart draft picks is what counts. the steelers and pats are always drafting in the late parts of rounds yet theyre always finding pertinent talent for their teams.

No one said anything about being "horrible". Who says we couldn't have fielded a young, decent team? Other than the OL issues, which would haunt us either way.

I also disagree that pick 13 isn't different than a top 5 pick. This year seems to be a QB rich draft. A top pick would allow us an opportunity at a QB, if that's the direction we would turn. And here's the thing, if we wound up having a good season with young guys, then guess what? We have a nucleus in place. A good season with old guys just means we have to replace them all.

I'd say we've been trying to win now (mostly) for the last 20 years. Certainly under the Vinny administration we were in win-now mode, with a side of befuddlement and sacks and stuff. My point is that we have an improved FO, and being able to do both (win now and rebuild) is within the realm of possibility for these guys, whereas tying their own shoes wasn't for the previous regime.

As I said in the OP, I agree our FO is better. I don't think we can do both. We've tried that for years with many different coaches/GMs and failed. But hey, I hope you're right here. I'd love to eat my words.

I'm not sure I agree with your last statement either. The vision may not be to your liking, but I think given the way these guys operate, there is a clear plan.

I don't see a vision. Has nothing to do with my liking.

Being someone who is bi-polar I think you are being very disrespectful. Not all bi-polar people act irrationally or fall off of their "mood swing" while rocking back and forth.

That is all.....thank you.

I think you're being sensitive. I never said anything about acting irrationally or falling off their mood swing. I said we don't know what we want. The definition of bi-polar is as follows:

bi·po·lar   /baɪˈpoʊlər/ Show Spelled

[bahy-poh-ler] Show IPA

–adjective

1. having two poles, as the earth.

2. of, pertaining to, or found at both polar regions.

3. characterized by opposite extremes, as two conflicting political philosophies.

4. Electronics . of or pertaining to a transistor that uses both positive and negative charge carriers.

The bolded one is the meaning I chose to use. Win now and rebuilding are conflicting philosophies.

That would only be true if we replaced McNabb with a young prospect, but sending in Rex Grossman instead? Makes no sense.

I do agree with this. Good point.

Unless it's a QB-rich draft, having a top 5 pick usually means getting a shot at the best QB prospect in the draft. You don't get that same shot at picks 10-15.

Absolutely.

Wouldn't split personality have been a better descriptor for the OP title?

I feel the word used fits what I describe. And it certainly wasn't an insult. It was commentary.

[PeterMP]

i agree, but having the 4th overall pick isnt THAT much better than having the 14th. i mean we found orakpo at #13 didnt we?

first round value is still valuable. while i do agree that just tanking it to get better draft picks can help rebuild (St louis, Detroit), its not completely necessary to be horrible in order to rebuild. having smart people in charge making smart draft picks is what counts. the steelers and pats are always drafting in the late parts of rounds yet theyre always finding pertinent talent for their teams.

But it isn't just the first round. It is in EVERY round.

And if you think the value is about the same for a pick, then you can always trade the pick. If the 4th pick isn't much different than the 14th pick, then you trade the 4th pick and add other picks.

Having more picks will make it easier to find that QB you were talking about.

The Patriots and Steelers ARE REALLY rGOOD. It is easier to mantain being really good than becoming really good. They are destinations for players because they are good. It is harder to get people like Alge Crumpler to come play for a team that is looking to about 8-8 rather than the Patriots.

All things being equal those players are going to go the team that has a chance of being really good.

[Mursilis]

true, in order to get those bluechip QBs you usually have to pick in the top 5.

we could always trade up too if theres someone there we really want. but i dont think tanking a year to save one draft pick is a worthwhile trade.

Maybe, but what if we end up 7-9 or 6-10 anyway, with McNabb, and minus the draft picks? How's that better? KDawg is right - the front office needs to pick a philosophy and stick with it, because right now, the approach seems to be, lose now, and build toward losses in the future.

[KDawg]

I don't think our front office bases personnel moves on the win now or rebuild mindset. I think if you try and look at their moves within that mindset it looks scattered and confused. But if you look at it through team players/leaders v individuals the moves start to make a lot more sense.

They got McNabb because he was an instant offensive team leader. Something we have lacked for decades. They got Jamal Brown to be a rock and oline leader over the next several years as they bring in a ton of young and less experienced talent. Were going to see some new faces on the online over the next 2-3 years, and I think the front office wanted a vet they could pair with Trent to build around.

You very well may be correct, but I view that as a flawed strategy. Why? Because there are reports saying Shanahan isn't happy with some of the things McNabb brings to the table. Well, he hasn't been any different than he was in Philadelphia. He wasn't magically going to change the way he is after, what, a decade, in the league. And to top that off, we spent draft picks on two guys without contracts. Sure, we can still sign them. But we haven't yet. And it may be because we don't view them as good enough, or it may be because they don't want to, or it may have to do with the CBA, who knows. But there's still a chance we gave up picks for a year rental. Which is why you don't give up picks.

Put it this way, I'm annoyed at what we did as far as trading picks goes... But if I was a Viking fan and we gave up a 3rd for a couple weeks of Randy Moss I'd be livid.

Which is still dumb. Out of the playoffs at 8-8 is the same as out of the playoffs at 3-13. Might as well have kept Campbell then - he can do mediocre, plus we would have kept the draft picks and likely had a higher one next year!

I've been saying the same. In a rebuild it doesn't matter who QBs your team, so if that was the vision (obviously, it's not) then you go with someone who doesn't cost picks. Campbell, Grossman, Brennan, JaMarcus Russell, JP Losman... Whoever.

[JPCreativelab]

my opinion:

McNabb is not a WIN NOW move. He is a move set up to strengthen us at the QB position and in leadership. He is put in place to help transition a rookie QB into a starting job in the next few years. If McNabb plays well, gives us a winning record...or even gets us to the playoffs or the super bowl in those couple years, even better. But I view McNabb's presence here with the Redskins as a leadership role...A better locker room leader than Campbell with the ability to get us into the playoffs if that is in the cards. And to train and mentor a rookie for us for the future.

[Mursilis]

Win Now

-Trading draft picks for Donovan McNabb

-Trading a draft pick for Jamaal Brown

-Keeping young receivers such as Terrence Austin on the practice squad while older unreliable players have a place on the active roster.

-Signing Larry Johnson and Willie Parker (who have since been cut)

-Keeping Andre Carter on the roster despite the ill fit for his position

-Replacing the slew of veterans we released on Bruce Allen's revival with a slew of old veterans.

Just want to add:

-Cutting Devin Thomas. Sure, he probably needed to mature, but who had more upside for the future - Galloway/R. Williams, or Thomas? I still suspect this move may look foolish in the future, but who knows?