Litchensteiger's play vs. the Packers

[NavyDave]

Before the game I was pointing out how inactivating Dockery could bite us in the butt and it nearly did. Dockery could contribute on two NFC east teams right now and it will not be surprising that if Dockery is cut that he is immediately signed by one of them.

[maddogtre]

This post isn't to defend Kory because he did play awful yesterday. However, claiming Dockery would've been the difference, and that he's a starting caliber lineman might not be correct. Remember, he was cut by Buffalo a few years ago. He's getting up there in age, and he simply doesn't fit our blocking sceme. As bad as Kory was yesterday, he did play pretty well the past few weeks.

One other note (that people brought up earlier) is that we simply struggle against 3-4 D's. Our O line has looked its worst this year against Dallas and Green Bay. I don't know if its the guards helping Rabach or what, but they struggle against 3-4 Ds. Good news - I think Dallas will be our only other 3-4 D we face the rest of the year (not sure about Jax). So hopefully, we won't see these issues again for a while.

I still have hope for Kory. Shanny drafted him, and likes him. He's young and fits our system. Hopefully, with an imrpoved C and RG, we will look alot better in future years.

HAIL

[BigMike21]

Plus they just said on the radio that Dockery can only play one position. LG. Williams can play all three interior positions and Kory can play both guard positions I believe.

[Thinking Skins]

Before the game I was pointing out how inactivating Dockery could bite us in the butt and it nearly did. Dockery could contribute on two NFC east teams right now and it will not be surprising that if Dockery is cut that he is immediately signed by one of them.

I really can't see Dockery being cut. Its not like he's that low on the roster. He's a valuable backup for us, and if something happens like Rabach can't play we're probably more likely to move Kory to C and Dockery back to LG than simply putting Montgomery at C. But that being said, its kinda frustrating that one of our best OL is on the bench because he doesn't fit the scheme, especially if we're not gonna run the ball (well) anyway.

[SkinsCrushCowboys]

He struggled quite a bit, but so did the entire line. I took CP's great blocking for granted and Torain is no where near the blocker of Portis. I did like seeing CP on the sidelines chatting up Torain, hopefully giving some pointers.

[justice98]

This post isn't to defend Kory because he did play awful yesterday. However, claiming Dockery would've been the difference, and that he's a starting caliber lineman might not be correct. Remember, he was cut by Buffalo a few years ago. He's getting up there in age, and he simply doesn't fit our blocking sceme. As bad as Kory was yesterday, he did play pretty well the past few weeks.

One other note (that people brought up earlier) is that we simply struggle against 3-4 D's. Our O line has looked its worst this year against Dallas and Green Bay. I don't know if its the guards helping Rabach or what, but they struggle against 3-4 Ds. Good news - I think Dallas will be our only other 3-4 D we face the rest of the year (not sure about Jax). So hopefully, we won't see these issues again for a while.

I still have hope for Kory. Shanny drafted him, and likes him. He's young and fits our system. Hopefully, with an imrpoved C and RG, we will look alot better in future years.

HAIL

I don't think the fact that Dockery got cut by Buffalo means anything at all. Guys get cut or not resigned for any of 100 reasons that have nothing to do with how good they are. Guys get cut from bad teams all the time that go on to start for better teams. Not trying to make Dockery better than he is, he's not a Pro Bowl guard or anything, but he's only 30, he shouldn't be over the hill at this point.

[RedskinFeathers]

Not much more to be said in this thread that hasn't already been said. Lich and Hicks were terrible this week. Heyer had no flags - we're all super excited about that (though I'm fairly certain he could have been called more than a few times for holding...). Rabach got owned, we're not surprised. Our Oline needs Portis to help block.

Conclusion:

Our Oline is still a cluster**** and we're not even halfway through the season.

Moving the players around so much really can't help either.

[Jacoby6644]

Not much more to be said in this thread that hasn't already been said. Lich and Hicks were terrible this week. Heyer had no flags - we're all super excited about that (though I'm fairly certain he could have been called more than a few times for holding...). Rabach got owned, we're not surprised. Our Oline needs Portis to help block.

Conclusion:

Our Oline is still a cluster**** and we're not even halfway through the season.

Moving the players around so much really can't help either.

Well said. Definately tell we missed CP on blitz pick up and the interior is weak at best. OL will be a draft need again this year.

[NoVaSkins21]

Dockery was inactive today so that is why you didnt see him play.

They need Dockery in there badly, but the problem is that Dockery isn't as versatile as some of the O-lineman on the team. They can'tl afford that kind of play against the Colts with guys like Freeney and Mathis.

[redskins55]

hopeflly someone will ask Shanahn today why Dockery was inactive and what he thought of the LG play by Litchensteiger. Cause from what I saw... He Stunk it up!

[Skadden]

You almost never see an interior lineman whiff on a pass rusher. But Lichtensteiger did just that on a Packer rusher yesterday. I think that was one of the worst breakdown of pass blocking I've seen an interior lineman on one play since Wilbert Brown did that years ago. Remember him. Wow, was he horrid. Fortunately for Kory, he's still a rookie and he does show some promise with some of his play.

[Skadden]

Some other things about Kory: he was drafted by Shanny in Denver in 2008 (fourth round). He was waived by Josh McDaniels the next year. He's 6'3" and only 295 pounds. Not exactly the mauling type of interior lineman you'd expect for a run-first team. Of course, his slightness of size probably fits better for the mobile zone blocking scheme Shanny likes to play, but I guess there are some concerns just on paper.

[maddogtre]

I don't think the fact that Dockery got cut by Buffalo means anything at all. Guys get cut or not resigned for any of 100 reasons that have nothing to do with how good they are. Guys get cut from bad teams all the time that go on to start for better teams. Not trying to make Dockery better than he is, he's not a Pro Bowl guard or anything, but he's only 30, he shouldn't be over the hill at this point.

The reason I mentioned he was cut by Buffalo is because someone else used that against Kory earlier in the thread (saying he was cut by Denver). Regardless, my other two points are still valid. He's getting long in the tooth and doesnt fit the scheme. Also, as others have mentioned, he isnt as versitile as Montgomery.

While 30 isn't really old, it is in this situation, considering he's playing in a new scheme that doesnt fit his skills/body type, it's not ideal.

[Rodriggo]

I didn't get a chance to watch the game too closely, but on the replays I saw him dodge his defender several times. Sometimes your man will beat you, this was something else entirely. He acted as though the whole thing was new to him. He practices against an agressive 3-4 for pete's sake!

Litchensteiger was a complete disaster yesterday, so glad somebody else noticed this. I've never seen a guard simply whiff multiple times in a game. I can remember two times clearly when someone came untouched right up the middle and absolutely destroyed McNabb. He can't take that kind of punishment.

[Skadden]

The reason I mentioned he was cut by Buffalo is because someone else used that against Kory earlier in the thread (saying he was cut by Denver). Regardless, my other two points are still valid. He's getting long in the tooth and doesnt fit the scheme. Also, as others have mentioned, he isnt as versitile as Montgomery.

While 30 isn't really old, it is in this situation, considering he's playing in a new scheme that doesnt fit his skills/body type, it's not ideal.

I heard Dock got cut in Buffalo because he clashed with the o-line coach there, Ray Brown. Yes, that's the Ray Brown we all know and love.

[clskinsfan]

I dont know how this guy got promoted over Dockery. He was absolutely awful today. At least Dockery will block somebody. He may not be the best fit for the ZBS. But Dock is a consistent pass blocker. Lichtensuck cant block anybody.

[Rodriggo]

Lichtensuck cant block anybody.

and he's gonna get McNabb killed.

[lavarisgone]

Dock needs to start at LG, Lick should back up.If were not going to run at least have a better pass blocker, plus with Dock in there we probably run better. Casey, oh well not much we can do that at this point.

[TotalRecall]

For the most part, Kory blocked well. He got beat once with a swim move by the DE. Twice he helped block on the NT, but the LB delayed blitz the hole that was created. It will be corrected when they look at the film. However, the RBs (K. Williams?) didn't do well picking-up the blitz. That also needs to be corrected.

[vnmenon1]

Dockery better be back out there starting next game... sure he won't help with running game, but he won't blow as many blocks as LITUPchensteiger..... I don't know what the coaches see in him

[AzSkinsFan63]

definitely bad..very bad play from him...

[Duckus]

One thing I did not know until today was that Derrick Dockery was a "healthy scratch" for the game. Wow. Starting LG to a healthy scratch.

You would like we could trade him for a 4th or 5th rounder.

[rk3025]

October is trade month and Derrick does not fit blocking style.

[Skadden]

Dockery is a mauling type of interior lineman, not exactly the fleeter, zone blocking guys Shanny likes. I don't see how we trade him, though, given the suspect depth we've got on o-line. Now that Dock's fit is being questioned here, what about BMW?

[Enter Apotheosis]

Lichtensteiger was completely out of football last year. And if I understand correctly, it wasn't an injury situation. And this is the starting guard? Going into next season, we're going to be in the same boat as this year when it comes to replacing linemen. Instead of finding a guard and tackle, we'll need to find a guard and center. And with limited picks, we wont be able to get better 3-4 personnel, so we'll be singing the same song this point next year.

Lichtensteiger did have a brief stint with the Vikings but was otherwise out of football for the majority of last season. That doesn't really mean much of anything, though. The guys Shanahan likes on his line aren't typically prized assets in the eyes of most other teams, which is particularly helpful come draft time where Shanahan has had a lot of success getting guys in the 3rd round or later and as UDFAs. These aren't always guys that come in and contribute right away because the blocking scheme is particularly nuanced but down the road you'll see why we got them.

With that in mind, I definitely wouldn't be too concerned about us being unable to stock up on talent elsewhere because of the lines. After all, we've got a bit of youth for Shanahan to work with already (e.g., Trent Williams, Kory Lichtensteiger, Selvish Capers, Eric Cook, and Will Robinson) and we'll likely bring in a few more next offseason without devoting a significant chunk of our draft to it.

Plus they just said on the radio that Dockery can only play one position. LG. Williams can play all three interior positions and Kory can play both guard positions I believe.

Lichtensteiger is a C/G and is actually the backup to Rabach on the team's depth chart.

Fortunately for Kory, he's still a rookie and he does show some promise with some of his play.

He's not a rookie, this is his third NFL season.

Dock needs to start at LG, Lick should back up.If were not going to run at least have a better pass blocker, plus with Dock in there we probably run better. Casey, oh well not much we can do that at this point.

A big part of the reason why Dockery got benched was because we seemed to run the ball much better with Lichtensteiger in the game the last few weeks.

I dont know how this guy got promoted over Dockery. He was absolutely awful today. At least Dockery will block somebody. He may not be the best fit for the ZBS. But Dock is a consistent pass blocker. Lichtensuck cant block anybody.

That's not really fair, Lichtensteiger made a few costly mental mistakes but he's not a sieve out there and he does well enough when he's in position to make the block. I'd also be willing to bet that if Portis was out there in pass protection we may not have had anything to complain about.

For the most part, Kory blocked well. He got beat once with a swim move by the DE. Twice he helped block on the NT, but the LB delayed blitz the hole that was created. It will be corrected when they look at the film. However, the RBs (K. Williams?) didn't do well picking-up the blitz. That also needs to be corrected.

I'd have to agree with this assessment. It seems like we have a lot of problems executing blocking assignments when we face other 3-4 defenses and it's really not something that is limited to one or two players. I suspect this is an area where we'll improve with time.