The Official Washington Basketball Thread: Wizards, Mystics etc

[RonArtest15]

As for Kevin Love, I agree that Love is nowhere near a championship level #1 option. The problem with Love is what happens once he gets in the playoffs - will he keep opposing bigs from going off defensively? Will he get his numbers against elite defenders? Will he not be a defensive liability because of his height and lack of length? Those are the questions you have to ask with Love.

If he gets to the playoffs and he puts up 26/11 against elite competition, then you can surround him and Rubio with big, long, strong defenders and a great defensvie C and have hope. But if he can't? Then forget it.

They are good questions, but they're all based off of hypotheticals. He's done his thing in the regular season and I'll be more than curious to see how he performs in the playoffs.

Another thing, Dirk's defensive liabilities were very well hidden due to the overall strong defense that Chandler/Marion supported him with. It's not fair to Love to single him out like this when Dirk didn't do everything on his own. Minnesota needs pieces to the puzzle. A trade of Derrick WIlliams will bring those in. You give Love an excellent defensive minded 5/3, you'll see him continue to thrive.

It's like Zach Randolph in Memphis. Look at the success he had with the excellent team defense he had around him. Z-Bo couldn't stop a period in a tampon factory, but those liabilities (like Dirk's) were masked due to the overall team strength.

[shuler74]

The unibrow is the answer for the wiz....book it!

[darrelgreenie]

Larry Brown.

[Going Commando]

SM How can you say a guy that can score in the post, rebound, and hit shots from seemingly anywhere lacks skills? If you'd be rid of him for Williams, an undersized PF that himself admitted he was a better fit for SF in the NBA, I don't know what to tell you.

Remember this is Kevin Love, year 4. He's not done getting good yet.

DW is an undersized PF? If he is, then Love definitely is. He's as tall as Kevin Love is and longer, weighs only five pounds less than Love and has less body fat %. His reach is actually better than Blake Griffin's. Granted, he's certainly not the leaper Griffin is. But he's also well above average for the position and a better, more coordinated athlete and leaper than Love.

We're less than ten games into DW's career. He figures to be a very significant part of their future. If they're planning to play him at SF long term, I think that's a mistake because I question his foot speed. He's slow to match up with the average 3 but if you put him at 4 he can run circles around most 4s with how agile he is and how good his bounce is. I think he's got the abillity to run a Blake Griffin-like role in his offense as the mobile PF with range and fits the mold of the PF of the future.

DW was the dominant college player last season, I think people are underestimating how good he can be. Not to mention he's the perfect PF compliment to a guy like Rubio and their windows are the same.

I think it makes sense for Minnesota to trade both Love and Beasley to bring in a piece that compliments a solid young core in Johnson, Rubio, and Williams--preferably a big time scoring 2 or a long 5. Minny has a log jam of combo forwards and are wasting Johnson at the 2 where he's not suited.

They should try and get Tyreke Evans and/or DeMarcus Cousins from the Kings for some of their extra forwards and even out the distribution of talent on their roster.

While normally I would agree with you about a 4th year player, Love is near his ceiling right now. How much more skilled can he become? He'll never be anything other than a below average athlete for the position. Athletically, he's definitely not a stiff, but he's not quick or agile and he's not a great leaper.

[Going Commando]

Kevin Love is already the best at his position. John Wall may be during his 4th season as well, he may not. There is a lot of over hyping of Wall, and it seems to me the same level of respect is not being given to some other great players in the league.

You can't explain how a player who is below average physically at best can go off for 25 and 15 consistently, have the first 30 and 30 game since Moses Malone and be the unanimously best at his position by his fourth season. This is incredibly ridiculous logic. Kevin Love is a very good athlete who is perhaps the smartest player at his position and all of NBA.

It's clear you're a fan of him, but you're being absolutely ridiculous calling him the unanimous best PF in the league. At this very moment? Based on what? His numbers through seven games this season? LOL! I'd take Blake Griffin over him every time and Love has nothing on the KGs and Dirks of the world and hasn't come close to proving he's the kind of player like them that can carry a team into the postseason year in and year out. He's not even better than Amare, who is usually an indifferent defender, but can play lockdown defense when he wants to. He wouldn't even be close to Tim Duncan if Duncan wasn't 100 years old. Is he even better than LaMarcus Aldridge?

Love might be the best PF in the league for a fantasy basketball team. But if you want to actually win a championship, Chris Bosh is a better option... Hell Pau Gasol is a better option and I don't think he's the player he was at this point a year ago.

Your argument is entirely volume stat based and utterly prisoner of the moment.

Edited January 8, 2012 by stevemcqueen1

[No Excuses]

Larry Brown.

No, no and no. He is done as an NBA coach.

[darrelgreenie]

No, no and no. He is done as an NBA coach.

Why?

I have no idea if Larry Brown does or doesn't want to coach again.

But if he did who would be a better coach to turn a team around?

[RonArtest15]

Amare Stoudemire and lockdown defense in the same sentence???? Oy vey.

C'mon man...this is getting really sad. You're throwing a bunch of stuff out there.

And you keep throwing "championship" out there with names like Chris Bosh. Last time I checked, Bosh was 1/3 of the best trio of players in the NBA, one of whom has a ring. For the 3rd time, you have anomalies like Dirk and Tim Duncan, but for the most part, NO PF is going to take a team on his back and lead them to a title.

[RonArtest15]

Why?

I have no idea if Larry Brown does or doesn't want to coach again.

But if he did who would be a better coach to turn a team around?

Larry Brown is a curmudgeon and is notorious for not meshing well with younger players. Shoot, he couldn't even get the best out of Lebron, Wade, and Melo in the Olympics a few years back. He's better suited for a veteran-laden squad. We need a coach who can grow with this team as well. I'd like to see Sam Cassell get a shot if Flip is (hopefully) canned.

[Going Commando]

They are good questions, but they're all based off of hypotheticals. He's done his thing in the regular season and I'll be more than curious to see how he performs in the playoffs.

Another thing, Dirk's defensive liabilities were very well hidden due to the overall strong defense that Chandler/Marion supported him with. It's not fair to Love to single him out like this when Dirk didn't do everything on his own. Minnesota needs pieces to the puzzle. A trade of Derrick WIlliams will bring those in. You give Love an excellent defensive minded 5/3, you'll see him continue to thrive.

It's like Zach Randolph in Memphis. Look at the success he had with the excellent team defense he had around him. Z-Bo couldn't stop a period in a tampon factory, but those liabilities (like Dirk's) were masked due to the overall team strength.

Exactly! Don't you see you're essentially arguing for the same conclusion as I am?

Love is like Randolph in Memphis--not a franchise caliber player. He's a very good player, and All Star, and someone who can be a core, complimentary offensive weapon on a contender.

He is not a franchise player though and you explain a function of that--you have to cover up for some significant weaknesses for him to keep him from getting exposed by other guys at his position. For a true franchise player, that's not the case. LeBron, Carmelo, Rose, Wade, Kobe, Deron, Dwight, Dirk, Duncan, Durant, Garnett, etc. These guys can't be exploited by anyone at their position on a consistent basis and all of them have some sort of freakish physical quality that makes them unstoppable in some way. They're elite or were elite in part because of their physical gifts. Love is excellent and highly in spite of his physical limitations.

When is the last time there was a franchise player in the NBA who had below average physical tools for his position? Thirty years ago? When a 6'4 shooting guard was huge?

This is the NBA. The physical profile matters more for basketball than it does for all the other sports leagues combined. That's why scouts and GMs sell out for physical tools and potential.

Re: Dirk, by the time Dirk was 22, he was in the playoffs and has proceeded to carry the Mavs to 11 straight playoff appearances and an absurd number of consecutive 50 win seasons. Kevin Love wasn't even the regular starter on his team until he was 22 and the Timberwolves have mostly been bad so far.

And Dirk was an MVP long before he got the team support to win a championship with guys like Chandler, Marion, Butler, and Kidd. Plus he probably should have gotten a ring in 2006 if the refs hadn't all of a sudden decided that looking intently at Dwayne Wade constituted a foul. When Love wins an MVP, I'll change my tune.

And Dirk isn't a great defender, but he's actually a decent one and has always played good team defense + given trouble to post scorers with the size of his base and his length, both of which are significantly greater than Love's.

They're not a ready comparison. Dirk is a legit 7 footer. Love is 6'8.

[Destino]

Yes Williams is undersized and yes his reach is slightly longer than Love. Love however is proven and the vast majority of very good college players will never be as good as Love. Being that Williams hasn't proven anything you look at him as a prospect, undersized player without great leaping ability. Also reminder Beasely makes Blatche look efficient, if they can get Williams effective at SF they in essence have to bigs with post games and range on the floor... With Rubio looking to pass the ball. That's a damn good place to be for a team that I thought was locked in the basement.

Size doesn't mean hit in the face of effectiveness. Just ask Charles Barkley. You have to prove it first though. Love has done so, Williams is trying to replace Beasely. That's all you need to know.

[darrelgreenie]

Larry Brown is a curmudgeon and is notorious for not meshing well with younger players.

Larry Brown is a crumudgeon.

And I'm not gonna sit here and argue media perception.

But its kinda far fetched to say he doesn't mesh well with young players since the NBA is filled with young players and he's had success virtually everywhere.

Shoot, he couldn't even get the best out of Lebron, Wade, and Melo in the Olympics a few years back.

You can think whatever you want.

But, when it comes to situations like that I'll side with a coach like Browns over almost any NBA 'superstar'.

Also, in the grand scheme of Larry Browns career do you really think only winning a Bronze with a relative bunch of directionless superstars is an indictment of his coaching abilities?

Is every coach that didn't win Gold a bad coach?

Is that the point you are trying to make?

Larry Brown's coaching achievements overwhelmingly out number his failures that I don't even think I have to go into them or do I?

He's better suited for a veteran-laden squad. We need a coach who can grow with this team as well. I'd like to see Sam Cassell get a shot if Flip is (hopefully) canned.

I'm not going take anything away from Cassell to state that I think Larry Brown is a better coach then him for any type of team.

My second choice after Brown would be Jerry Sloan.

[RonArtest15]

Exactly! Don't you see you're essentially arguing for the same conclusion as I am?

Love is like Randolph in Memphis--not a franchise caliber player. He's a very good player, and All Star, and someone who can be a core, complimentary offensive weapon on a contender.

He is not a franchise player though and you explain a function of that--you have to cover up for some significant weaknesses for him to keep him from getting exposed by other guys at his position. For a true franchise player, that's not the case. LeBron, Carmelo, Rose, Wade, Kobe, Deron, Dwight, Dirk, Duncan, Durant, Garnett, etc. These guys can't be exploited by anyone at their position on a consistent basis and all of them have some sort of freakish physical quality that makes them unstoppable in some way. They're elite or were elite in part because of their physical gifts. Love is excellent and highly in spite of his physical limitations.

When is the last time there was a franchise player in the NBA who had below average physical tools for his position? Thirty years ago? When a 6'4 shooting guard was huge?

This is the NBA. The physical profile matters more for basketball than it does for all the other sports leagues combined. That's why scouts and GMs sell out for physical tools and potential.

Re: Dirk, by the time Dirk was 22, he was in the playoffs and has proceeded to carry the Mavs to 11 straight playoff appearances and an absurd number of consecutive 50 win seasons. Kevin Love wasn't even the regular starter on his team until he was 22 and the Timberwolves have mostly been bad so far.

And Dirk was an MVP long before he got the team support to win a championship with guys like Chandler, Marion, Butler, and Kidd. Plus he probably should have gotten a ring in 2006 if the refs hadn't all of a sudden decided that looking intently at Dwayne Wade constituted a foul. When Love wins an MVP, I'll change my tune.

And Dirk isn't a great defender, but he's actually a decent one and has always played good team defense + given trouble to post scorers with the size of his base and his length, both of which are significantly greater than Love's.

They're not a ready comparison. Dirk is a legit 7 footer. Love is 6'8.

You're missing my point. I brought up Z-Bo in comparison to Dirk...saying that their ineptness on defense is masked by the fact they have stellar OVERALL units around them. THIS is what is going to benefit Love and he needs a stronger defensive front court. Moving Williams and Beasley will be the key to helping this team get over the hump.

[Going Commando]

Amare Stoudemire and lockdown defense in the same sentence???? Oy vey.

C'mon man...this is getting really sad. You're throwing a bunch of stuff out there.

And you keep throwing "championship" out there with names like Chris Bosh. Last time I checked, Bosh was 1/3 of the best trio of players in the NBA, one of whom has a ring. For the 3rd time, you have anomalies like Dirk and Tim Duncan, but for the most part, NO PF is going to take a team on his back and lead them to a title.

Don't undersell Amare's post defense skills. He's a lot savvier than people give him credit for and can contest shots on almost anyone, plus he can crash the boards hard and used to thrive in the halfcourt for Phoenix when the Spurs would force them to slow down (something people have apparently forgotten). He'd look bad compared to Duncan or Garnett. But come on, everyone looks bad compared to them.

You're right though. I don't think any big can take a team on his back and carry them to a title if the rest of his team is trash. Well, Dirk may have just done so, but I agree that was an anomaly. His team of also rans suddenly became super effective in the playoffs, something that can't totally be explained by elite coaching. Plus Dirk's individual performance was arguably the greatest by any big in modern NBA history. He just did not miss shots no matter what he chucked up, like he was permanently on fire NBA Jam style. That's just sheer luck and he'll probably never have a shooting stretch like that again.

KG, Dwight, Dirk, Duncan, Gasol, O'Neal, Olajuwan, Robinson, etc. they've all been a part of quality teams when they contended, but, with the exception of Gasol, they were also the foundational pieces of those contenders. They needed support, but they also did the heavy lifting all throughout their primes.

Can Kevin Love do that? Doubt it, ad so far he hasn't even come close. I think he's complimentary piece for another freak who can shoulder the load--a quality second banana.

I think you and Vishal are overrating the hell out of Love based on his crazy volume stats he's put up through the first seven games of the season. He's maaaaaybe got a case for being one of the top five PFs in the league. But it's ridiculous to say he's the top PF in the league. Is he even better than LaMarcus Aldridge? Aldridge has accomplished more than he has, leading a struggling team into the playoffs, and has a more well rounded game. And I certainly don't think Aldridge is the best PF in the league.

Edited January 8, 2012 by stevemcqueen1

[RonArtest15]

Larry Brown is a crumudgeon.

And I'm not gonna sit here and argue media perception.

But its kinda far fetched to say he doesn't mesh well with young players since the NBA is filled with young players and he's had success virtually everywhere.

You can think whatever you want.

But, when it comes to situations like that I'll side with a coach like Browns over almost any NBA 'superstar'.

Also, in the grand scheme of Larry Browns career do you really think only winning a Bronze with a relative bunch of directionless superstars is an indictment of his coaching abilities?

Is every coach that didn't win Gold a bad coach?

Is that the point you are trying to make?

Larry Brown's coaching achievements overwhelmingly out number his failures that I don't even think I have to go into them or do I?

I'm not going take anything away from Cassell to state that I think Larry Brown is a better coach then him for any type of team.

My second choice after Brown would be Jerry Sloan.

What's Brown's coaching track-record since 2005? That's the man you want leading this team? No thank you. FWIW, Brown butting heads w. Melo/Lebron/Wade in the Olympics perfectly captures how his abrasive style isn't necessarily a good fit for a young squad.

I'm not going to say anything about Jerry Sloan, but it would be nothing short of a miracle if he'd actually agree to coach this team.

*SM...in my initial post about Love, I said "currently." Yes, it's based off of the 7 games he's played in, but I've acknowledged the small-sample size and totally expect his #'s to dip. But he's made a TON of progress between what we saw last year and what he's doing right now. Plenty can change, but I have no problem saying he's the best 4 in the NBA at the moment.

*And no offense...there is nothing to be desired about Amare's defense. He's horrible. Plain and simple. If he ever committed being a quasi-competent defender, he might realize that the Knicks would have more success. Same can be said of Melo. Those two are so infatuated with their #'s and offense but totally neglect just about EVERYTHING on defense. Chandler was brought in to be an anchor, but it's going to take more than him. I'm not the biggest fan of the Melo/STAT pairing to begin with and I think it's only a matter of time before these guys start bickering, D'Antoni is fired, and the whole thing implodes.

Edited January 8, 2012 by RonArtest15

[Going Commando]

Yes Williams is undersized and yes his reach is slightly longer than Love. Love however is proven and the vast majority of very good college players will never be as good as Love. Being that Williams hasn't proven anything you look at him as a prospect, undersized player without great leaping ability. Also reminder Beasely makes Blatche look efficient, if they can get Williams effective at SF they in essence have to bigs with post games and range on the floor... With Rubio looking to pass the ball. That's a damn good place to be for a team that I thought was locked in the basement.

Size doesn't mean hit in the face of effectiveness. Just ask Charles Barkley. You have to prove it first though. Love has done so, Williams is trying to replace Beasely. That's all you need to know.

You're right, that's not a bad foundation for an offense. That could be a top five offense. But it will also be a bottom five defense unless you find the second coming of Mutombo and Bruce Bowen to man the 2 and the 5.

I don't see how that team makes the leap into the upper echelons of title contenders as is. It needs balance, and that's the danger in having two forwards with the types of limitations that DW and Love have.

I don't see how they can hope to contend with a team like the Heat. Guys like Lebron would shut Love down when he tries to score from the perimeter and guys like Bosh can keep him from getting his shots off clean in the paint. His crazy shooting percentages would plummet. And he wouldn't have a snowball's chance of stopping anyone of their forwards on the other end of the floor. You'd have to put him on the center and hope they don't have the talent to exploit the size mismatch.

Charles Barkley played a long time ago. Charles Barkley simply could not have played PF today like he did back in the 80's, with the proliferation of guys with the length of KG in the league.

---------- Post added January-7th-2012 at 10:41 PM ----------

Larry Brown has a well publicized problem with working with foreign players, particularly former Euroleaguers.

I think he could be bad for the development of guys like Seraphin and Vesely. We really need Vesely to thrive.

---------- Post added January-7th-2012 at 10:52 PM ----------

*And no offense...there is nothing to be desired about Amare's defense. He's horrible. Plain and simple. If he ever committed being a quasi-competent defender, he might realize that the Knicks would have more success. Same can be said of Melo. Those two are so infatuated with their #'s and offense but totally neglect just about EVERYTHING on defense. Chandler was brought in to be an anchor, but it's going to take more than him. I'm not the biggest fan of the Melo/STAT pairing to begin with and I think it's only a matter of time before these guys start bickering, D'Antoni is fired, and the whole thing implodes.

Well D'Antoni will probably get fired at some point this season but I don't think that roster implodes. They've got Carmelo and Amare locked up long term. That's arguably the best forward pairing in the league. They'll be a playoff team from here on out even if they never add anyone else. And if they get the right third piece and collection of role players, they can be a legit force.

I was skeptical of the construction before too, and I used to think Melo couldn't play defense. But I really started watching them last year and noticed Carmelo can really lock people down and smother them. He's unbelievably strong and has good length and quickness.

I used to think Shawn Marion couldn't play defense for crap either and he was phenomenal last season.

The trick is getting them motivated and focused. D'Antoni isn't really the man for that and has never been that type of coach.

They could have one of the best post defenses in the league if they found the right coach.

[Destino]

Yeah bigs are so much better now then when Charles Barkley played. Right...

Also why are you assuming Williams can't defend at SF and that Love won't improve his defense? Oversized SF are common today and his length and strength. Defense isn't about raw speed it's about effort and preparation more than anything else. You have to know the tendencies of your assignment and make them uncomfortable. Bowen strike you as a great athlete?

[Sticksboi05]

You're right, that's not a bad foundation for an offense. That could be a top five offense. But it will also be a bottom five defense unless you find the second coming of Mutombo and Bruce Bowen to man the 2 and the 5.

I don't see how that team makes the leap into the upper echelons of title contenders as is. It needs balance, and that's the danger in having two forwards with the types of limitations that DW and Love have.

I don't see how they can hope to contend with a team like the Heat. Guys like Lebron would shut Love down when he tries to score from the perimeter and guys like Bosh can keep him from getting his shots off clean in the paint. His crazy shooting percentages would plummet. And he wouldn't have a snowball's chance of stopping anyone of their forwards on the other end of the floor. You'd have to put him on the center and hope they don't have the talent to exploit the size mismatch.

Charles Barkley played a long time ago. Charles Barkley simply could not have played PF today like he did back in the 80's, with the proliferation of guys with the length of KG in the league

Chuck was like 6'5" and dominated at PF. Would you rather play KG or Hakeem in the paint? Also the defensive three in the key means people can't just standand wait for the block like in the past. That said, yes, more athleticism in some bigs today no question. But in a list of the greatest big men ever, there'd be barely anyone from today's NBA (2000-2010). Shaq/Duncan/KG.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Sticksboi05

[darrelgreenie]

What's Brown's coaching track-record since 2005?

You mean when he took a young (the type of team he doesn't relate to right?) Bobcats team with limited talent from 35-47 then to 44-38 and into the playoffs the following season?

Then after he gets canned they go back sub-.500 and out of the playoffs?

I don't think ant reasonable basketball fan is really gonna blame Brown for the 1 year stint with the Knicks.

That's the man you want leading this team?

Hell yeah, especially for a team that has a lead guard with limitless talent surrounding by a bunch of chuckleheads that don't understand the game and lack discipline.

it would be nothing short of a miracle if he'd actually agree to coach this team.

You're right, but I can dream.

Maybe its my wishful thinking but I think John Wall is enough to make any coach think about giving this team a go IF they put a decent FO in place.

Edited January 8, 2012 by darrelgreenie

[darrelgreenie]

Larry Brown has a well publicized problem with working with foreign players, particularly former Euroleaguers.

I think he could be bad for the development of guys like Seraphin and Vesely. We really need Vesely to thrive.

I agree that there is a perception that Brown doesn't like foreign players.

And there might be some truth to that, but I'm certain he's coached and had success with foreign players before.

Brown is a hard nosed no BS basketball purist and he's probably gonna have a problem with any player that doesn't hustle, plays soft, doesn't play defense and take bad shots.

Larry Brown would love Blatche.

I've been watching basketball and every team this guy has a chance to coach gets better.

He eventually wears them down and you might need to replace him after 3 years or so.

But in those 3-4 years that team will get better.

[StillUnknown]

You mean when he took a young (the type of team he doesn't relate to right?) Bobcats team with limited talent from 35-47 then to 44-38 and into the playoffs the following season?

Then after he gets canned they go back sub-.500 and out of the playoffs?

I don't think ant reasonable basketball fan is really gonna blame Brown for the 1 year stint with the Knicks.

Hell yeah, especially for a team that has a lead guard with limitless talent surrounding by a bunch of chuckleheads that don't understand the game and lack discipline.

Your right, but I can dream right?

Maybe its my wishful thinking but I think John Wall is enough to make any coach think about giving this team a go IF they put a decent FO in place.

My issue would be Larry bolting after 1 year. He likes to bounce around. The next coach who comes through needs to be the guy they plan on leading the team from rebuilding to fringe playoff team, someone who can grow with the team so they have some continuity.

[Warhead36]

Yeah I want a young up and coming coach, NOT a retread. Someone like Brooks in OKC or Thibs in Chicago.

[Chachie]

Jim Lynum.

[StillUnknown]

I want Popovich's top assistant, Mike Budenholzer.

[Sticksboi05]

We don't need a Larry Brown we need a (who is that?, ok this could work)