The Official Washington Basketball Thread: Wizards, Mystics etc

[Destino]

16 minutes ago, RonArtest15 said:

 

I think Curry is the better overall player, but I think Wall is the better PG - if that makes sense.  Curry has the luxury of playing in a system (and with players) that cater to his strengths.  Draymond can facilitate the 1/2 court offense (same w/ KD now) which lightens the load of Steph.  It's not all falling on him the same way it ALL falls on John Wall here in DC.  That being said, I can't disagree with any of your points...there is A LOT he needs to work on this summer. 

 

 

 

I agree with you but Wall is a big part of the reason everything falls on his shoulders.  He doesn't pass early in the possession and then move without the ball, something that has to happen for a great deal of ball movement to occur in the offense.  That's not all on him, Beal does the same thing, but that play style (which they both clearly prefer) contribute to the Wizards offense looking as primitive as it does.   

 

On the bright side, Wall has the ability to do that.  Iso scoring and creating when defenses are at their best in the post season is a super star quality.  I just think Wall would benefit from picking his spots and allowing an offensive system to do more of the work.  A bench wouldn't hurt either 

[TradeTheBeal!]

3 hours ago, RonArtest15 said:

 

I'm all for doing whatever appeases Wall.  Cousins would be a GREAT start.  I guarantee he's telling the FO about this demand.  It's no secret the two of them want to play together. 

 

*edit*

 

A healthy trio of Wall/Beal/Cousins is more than enough to challenge Lebron/C's/etc. to come out of the East. 

 

Probably need to trade Beal to get Cousins...and Im fine with that.

 

Wall/Porter/Cousins/Morris could do a lot of damage in the East 2018-2021.

[Bozo the kKklown]

1 hour ago, RonArtest15 said:

Flame away, but I think Wall is the best PG in the NBA. 

Nah 

it's Curry

 

Not close either.

 

Curry can create a scoring opportunity for a teammate while never touching the ball.

1 hour ago, RonArtest15 said:

 

I think Curry is the better overall player, but I think Wall is the better PG - if that makes sense.  Curry has the luxury of playing in a system (and with players) that cater to his strengths.  Draymond can facilitate the 1/2 court offense (same w/ KD now) which lightens the load of Steph.  It's not all falling on him the same way it ALL falls on John Wall here in DC.  That being said, I can't disagree with any of your points...there is A LOT he needs to work on this summer. 

 

 

if Curry had the ball in his hands as much as Wall, he would average 10 assists a game too.

4 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

 

Probably need to trade Beal to get Cousins...and Im fine with that.

 

Wall/Porter/Cousins/Morris could do a lot of damage in the East 2018-2021.

we don't

 

Either move Otto or get Cousins to do a 1+1 deal. It kind of makes sense, from a team building standpoint, for Wall not to sign the Super Max, imo.

[Bozo the kKklown]

2 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I disagree with that guy's take that Wall isn't a top ten player.  He's there.  He's knocking on the door of the top five.

 

I think he's making the Porter situation out to be more difficult than it actually is.  The difference between signing Porter to 20 million a year and what the Blazers did last summer is that Allen Crabbe and Evan Turner both suck.  Porter is actually good and people want him, if we need to create room in the summer of 2018 then we will be able to trade him.  And realistically, we would probably need Porter as a carrot to structure a sign and trade around.  I know the Kings got less in return than Porter for Cousins, but I don't know that we can count on the Pelicans being as dumb and desperate as them.

 

The DPE makes him eligible for 35% this summer.  If he loses his eligibility next summer, he'll only be able to sign for 30%.

i thought the years of service thing still mattered.

 

Porter is good, but Cousins is better. I want for their to be a way to get Cousins and keep Porter. Actually there is a way, but Ted wont pay it.

 

Wall is not going to sign an extension.

[justice98]

2 hours ago, RonArtest15 said:

 

I think Curry is the better overall player, but I think Wall is the better PG - if that makes sense.  Curry has the luxury of playing in a system (and with players) that cater to his strengths.  Draymond can facilitate the 1/2 court offense (same w/ KD now) which lightens the load of Steph.  It's not all falling on him the same way it ALL falls on John Wall here in DC.  That being said, I can't disagree with any of your points...there is A LOT he needs to work on this summer. 

 

 

 

I think the only thing that Curry does better than Wall is shooting, where he's one of the best to ever do it. But if you go point by point on their skills, I'd put Wall up against Curry any day in just about anything else.  Outside of shooting, what does Curry do definitively better than Wall?  

[Bozo the kKklown]

16 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

I think the only thing that Curry does better than Wall is shooting, where he's one of the best to ever do it. But if you go point by point on their skills, I'd put Wall up against Curry any day in just about anything else.  Outside of shooting, what does Curry do definitively better than Wall?  

Curry is the best playmaker in the NBA.

 

He is a better scorer than Wall

 

Wall may be able to play dominant defense, Curry is a more consistent defender.

 

He is much better as a point guard than Wall. He controls games better. We don't have to go over the top to say Wall is great. Wall is great but Curry is better.

[justice98]

5 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Curry is the best playmaker in the NBA.

 

He is a better scorer than Wall

 

Wall may be able to play dominant defense, Curry is a more consistent defender.

 

He is much better as a point guard than Wall. He controls games better. We don't have to go over the top to say Wall is great. Wall is great but Curry is better.

 

I would dispute Curry being the best playmaker, PG or otherwise. He's up there though.

 

Curry is a liability on defense.  So he's consistent in that.

 

I was using shooting and scoring interchangeably in this instance because Curry piles up points with his shooting efficiency.  You out here making 40-45% from 3 putting up 10 a game, the scoring column fills up quick.

[Going Commando]

46 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

i thought the years of service thing still mattered.

 

In this case it doesn't matter.

 

For quick reference: the three levels of max contract are 25% of the cap for less than 7 years, 30% for 7-9 years, and 35% for 10 or more.

 

Wall has seven years this summer and would have eight next summer, so there would be no advantage gained by waiting in terms of getting a higher share of the cap.

But the DPE is a new exception to the rule that has two benefits for those who qualify:

 

1 - It let's a player with less than 10 years of veterancy sign a 35% max.

2 - It let's a player sign an early extension for up to five years, when previously they could only sign for four.

 

However, another rule comes into play for Wall: teams can only have up to six years of existing control over players.  Wall is under contract for two more years, so unfortunately he can only sign a four year DPE extension this summer rather than the full five.

 

Thus there are only two reasons for Wall to hold off on signing an extension this summer:

 

1 - He wants to try and get the fifth year next summer

2 - He's planning an exit strategy

 

Getting a fifth year next summer means a lot more guaranteed money, almost 50 million.  But waiting comes with tremendous risk. He was only a third teamer this year, and he could easily miss the All NBA team next season and lose his eligibility for the 35% max.  Guard is the most competitive position by far.  Most of the best players in the league are guards and they only get six spots whereas forwards get nine.  Three or four All NBA spots are locked up every season by Westbrook, Curry, Harden, and maybe Paul.  So basically he's competing with all of the East guards and Damian Lillard for the final two spots.

 

I think he'll ultimately sign an extension.  I think he could sign a 3+1 with that final year being an ETO.  That way he'll be 30 when he hits free agency again and he can either ring chase the final years of his prime or sign one last mega contract.

[Bozo the kKklown]

3 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

I would dispute Curry being the best playmaker, PG or otherwise. He's up there though.

 

Curry is a liability on defense.  So he's consistent in that.

 

I was using shooting and scoring interchangeably in this instance because Curry piles up points with his shooting efficiency.  You out here making 40-45% from 3 putting up 10 a game, the scoring column fills up quick.

Curry is the best playmaker in the NBA. HE leads the NBA in hockey assists. He sets up plays without touching the ball.

 

And Curry is not a liability on defense. Thats just an untrue statement. He is a solid defender. Wall may be able to reach higher heights defensively, but Curry tries on defense all the time, Wall doesn't.

[justice98]

41 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Curry is the best playmaker in the NBA. HE leads the NBA in hockey assists. He sets up plays without touching the ball.

 

And Curry is not a liability on defense. Thats just an untrue statement. He is a solid defender. Wall may be able to reach higher heights defensively, but Curry tries on defense all the time, Wall doesn't.

 

In a league with LeBron James still playing, Steph will never be the best playmaker. 

 

Kudos for giving Steph the participation award for defense, but we'll just have to disagree on that.  Kyrie is kicking his chops hoping he can get Klay switched off of him in the Finals.

[Bozo the kKklown]

15 minutes ago, justice98 said:

 

In a league with LeBron James still playing, Steph will never be the best playmaker. 

 

Kudos for giving Steph the participation award for defense, but we'll just have to disagree on that.  Kyrie is kicking his chops hoping he can get Klay switched off of him in the Finals.

Curry is a better playmaker than Lebron. 

 

His being in the court opens up scoring opportunities because of the attention he draws. 

 

All I know is everyone goes crazy over Russy yet Curry usually dominates their head to head matchups while Russy struggles. This was with a Durant too.

 

Curry also is great in the passing lanes:

[Destino]

2 hours ago, justice98 said:

 

I think the only thing that Curry does better than Wall is shooting, where he's one of the best to ever do it. But if you go point by point on their skills, I'd put Wall up against Curry any day in just about anything else.  Outside of shooting, what does Curry do definitively better than Wall?  

Curry has better handles and is nightmare without the ball.  He sets screens and creates open looks for himself all over the court.  Wall does essentially nothing without the ball but stand on a spot.  Think about how many times you've seen Wall set a screen or make a simple play like a back door cut.  If you watch Wizards games you know that's rare.  

 

Curry is a superstar scorer, not just a better shooter.  Wall is better at creating for others and pushing the ball (where he's one of the very best) but Curry isn't just a shooter.  

[RonArtest15]

2 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Curry is a better playmaker than Lebron. 

 

His being in the court opens up scoring opportunities because of the attention he draws. 

 

All I know is everyone goes crazy over Russy yet Curry usually dominates their head to head matchups while Russy struggles. This was with a Durant too.

 

Curry also is great in the passing lanes:

 

U my dude, but u buggin' bro LOL. 

 

As Lebron goes, so do the Cavs.  Proof is in the record when he doesn't play.  Kyrie can't lead an offense and Love puts up empty #'s like he did in Minnesota.  Now, when all three are together, it works...however, the one variable in the equation is what Lebron brings to the table.

 

Can't say the same for the Warriors.  Warriors still play at a high level even when Curry is off the floor (going back to '16, before Durant came to town.) 

 

Also, you can't gauge how guys play in passing lanes, because that is why folks thought Larry Hughes was a good defender when in reality, he wasn't.  Klay, is by far the better defender out of the guards on that Warriors roster. 

[Warhead36]

Curry is better then Wall, but they're different players and most notably they play in different systems.

 

People say the offense bogs down when Wall doesn't have the ball, but how many other offensive generators are there on the Wiz? Beal is just now starting to get good with the ball in his hands. Beyond that, noone. Its why our offense always comes to a screeching halt when Wall sits. Meanwhile the Warriors have Thompson, Durant, Green, even bench players like Igoudala and Stevenson among others who can generate with the ball in their hands.

 

Curry is the best PG in the league. Wall is 2nd. No shame whatsoever in that.

[Bozo the kKklown]

2 hours ago, RonArtest15 said:

 

U my dude, but u buggin' bro LOL. 

 

As Lebron goes, so do the Cavs.  Proof is in the record when he doesn't play.  Kyrie can't lead an offense and Love puts up empty #'s like he did in Minnesota.  Now, when all three are together, it works...however, the one variable in the equation is what Lebron brings to the table.

 

Can't say the same for the Warriors.  Warriors still play at a high level even when Curry is off the floor (going back to '16, before Durant came to town.) 

 

Also, you can't gauge how guys play in passing lanes, because that is why folks thought Larry Hughes was a good defender when in reality, he wasn't.  Klay, is by far the better defender out of the guards on that Warriors roster. 

Curry's a better playmaker than Lebron. They Warriors have one of hte best offenses of all time because of Curry's presence on the court. I keep saying this, but he can create for his teammates without touching the ball. Teams dread him and have to account for him all the time on the court, and he is always moving which forces defenders to follow him and lose their marker.

 

If Curry is out for any significant period of time, Golden State are not the machine they are now. Not even close. As we saw in the season, they could lose Durant and be fine. (IMO, they didnt need Durant for the Western conference playoffs)

 

That whole offense is predicated on Curry. The problem is we are used to seeing CP3/Wall type of point guards who dominate the ball and move put in great passes. Curry's gift is that he does not need to do that. Before Kerr arrived, Curry was averaging 8 assists a game dominating the ball. Curry lead the NBA in hockey assists the last 2 seasons.

 

I never said Curry was a great defender. Go back and read what I said. He is a very consistent defender. You know you are going to get 6/10 defending every night from Curry. And he is great at playing passing lanes. He ratchets it up for some reason against Westbrook, but other than that he is a 6/10 defender. That is not a liability.

 

Wall can be a 9/10 defender or he can be 4/10 defender. Curry is a more consistent defender than Wall. And if Wall makes All NBA this season, it will be down to him playing the passing lanes better than anyone else in the league and not because he was actually a good on the ball defender. (he wasnt)

5 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Curry is better then Wall, but they're different players and most notably they play in different systems.

 

People say the offense bogs down when Wall doesn't have the ball, but how many other offensive generators are there on the Wiz? Beal is just now starting to get good with the ball in his hands. Beyond that, noone. Its why our offense always comes to a screeching halt when Wall sits. Meanwhile the Warriors have Thompson, Durant, Green, even bench players like Igoudala and Stevenson among others who can generate with the ball in their hands.

 

Curry is the best PG in the league. Wall is 2nd. No shame whatsoever in that.

the other thing I will say here is if you put Curry on the Wizards, he would get as many assists if not more than Wall has.

 

Would Wall play the same way in Golden State? Doubt it just because he cannot shoot anywhere near as well.

[Going Commando]

Curry >>> Wall at shooting

Wall >> Curry at defense, passing, and slashing.

 

The reason why Curry has been much better and more successful than Wall is he's so much more consistent during the regular season.  He's a lot more disciplined and well conditioned.  His effort level is far better.  He gets way more out of his natural talent.

 

John is a Southern man and he likes to eat bad food and have a good time.  He grew up faster and bigger than everyone else and didn't have to develop the same work habits to be successful.  Curry is a grinder who has Kobe's work ethic.  He's better than Kobe was though.  He reads the floor so much better and is a much more consistent shooter.

[Bozo the kKklown]

Curry has better handles than Wall 

 

He is a more consistent defender than Wall even though Wall could be a dominant defender if he wanted.

 

Curry also finishes around the basket better than Wall does. 

 

He just a better point guard.

 

 

If Wall wants to take that next step, he needs to work on his shooting but he gonna also need to get his conditioning up. I will know Wall is serious next season if he comes to training camp with definition and loses some of the chubbiness in his face.

 

 

 

edit: Wall hit a growth spurt at age 15 or 16, iirc. He was not always bigger and faster than everyone else. HE was under 6 feet until junior year, iirc. He didnt have a for NBA playing father to teach him the game like Curry did.

[Warhead36]

Remember Wall had two knee surgeries last off season, so he couldn't really work out. I expect him to come into this year's camp in the best shape of his life and ready to have a real legit MVP type season.

[Kosher Ham]

Is this Arenas 2.0 ? 

 

Geez, Curry is better. I have no idea why some of you can even try to debate that. 

Stop being silly here. 

 

Wall is in the top ten of players in the game right now. I will give you that. He is NOT a top 5 player in the game...yet. 

 

[Going Commando]

7 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

edit: Wall hit a growth spurt at age 15 or 16, iirc. He was not always bigger and faster than everyone else. HE was under 6 feet until junior year, iirc. He didnt have a for NBA playing father to teach him the game like Curry did.

 

By the time he was a sophomore/junior in H.S. and getting recruited and invited to national camps, he was tall and he was lighting people up at the highest level of competition.  That's what I meant when I said he grew up faster and bigger.  John used to talk about the reason he never learned to shoot before he got to the NBA was because he never had to.  Reminds me of how Iverson could score 50 or 60 points in invitational tournaments in High School and college while only taking a couple of jumpers.

 

Good point about John not having an NBA playing father.  LaVar Ball's crazy opinion aside, you can see how much it benefits the guys who do have that.  They are so mechanically refined.  And even though they didn't play in the NBA, you see how much having parents who were great teachers helped Beal and Porter.  Not having that is why John has no off-ball game.  He's like a self taught genius, but he has never played off the ball in his entire basketball career.

[RonArtest15]

9 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Curry's a better playmaker than Lebron. They Warriors have one of hte best offenses of all time because of Curry's presence on the court. I keep saying this, but he can create for his teammates without touching the ball. Teams dread him and have to account for him all the time on the court, and he is always moving which forces defenders to follow him and lose their marker.

 

If Curry is out for any significant period of time, Golden State are not the machine they are now. Not even close. As we saw in the season, they could lose Durant and be fine. (IMO, they didnt need Durant for the Western conference playoffs)

 

That whole offense is predicated on Curry. The problem is we are used to seeing CP3/Wall type of point guards who dominate the ball and move put in great passes. Curry's gift is that he does not need to do that. Before Kerr arrived, Curry was averaging 8 assists a game dominating the ball. Curry lead the NBA in hockey assists the last 2 seasons.

 

I never said Curry was a great defender. Go back and read what I said. He is a very consistent defender. You know you are going to get 6/10 defending every night from Curry. And he is great at playing passing lanes. He ratchets it up for some reason against Westbrook, but other than that he is a 6/10 defender. That is not a liability.

 

Wall can be a 9/10 defender or he can be 4/10 defender. Curry is a more consistent defender than Wall. And if Wall makes All NBA this season, it will be down to him playing the passing lanes better than anyone else in the league and not because he was actually a good on the ball defender. (he wasnt)

the other thing I will say here is if you put Curry on the Wizards, he would get as many assists if not more than Wall has.

 

Would Wall play the same way in Golden State? Doubt it just because he cannot shoot anywhere near as well.

 

Look at the numbers from '16.  Not a crazy drop off with only having Klay/Draymond on the floor.  They are STILL an efficient squad due to the sum of all parts and the system they run.  It's not to slight Curry, but he doesn't have to shoulder the same load as Lebron for his team to have success. 

 

Curry is an AVERAGE defender at best.  Again, you can't equate him being aware of passing lanes to him being a competent defender.  It's Larry Hughes all over again.  6/10 is beyond generous.  6/10 is where Oubre is right now. 

 

You can't play the hypothetical game about how many assists Curry would average when his career high is only 8.5.  Not to mention, he has the luxury of playing with 3 top-15 players in the league...and two of those can facilitate the 1/2 court and take pressure off of him as a ball handler.  Even before KD went to GS, Draymond was/is doing the same. 

 

I'll say it again...Curry is a MUCH better player than Wall, but Wall is the better PG.  In today's NBA, shooting reigns supreme, and Curry is most-likely going to go down as the best in the history of the game.  He's flat out amazing.  If I was building at team, I'd pick him 10x out of 10 over Wall JUST because of how good he is at that aspect of the game.  Even with his playmaking not being on Wall's level, his shooting more than makes up for it.  He's beyond elite. 

4 hours ago, Kosher Ham said:

Is this Arenas 2.0 ? 

 

Geez, Curry is better. I have no idea why some of you can even try to debate that. 

Stop being silly here. 

 

Wall is in the top ten of players in the game right now. I will give you that. He is NOT a top 5 player in the game...yet. 

 

 

I don't think anyone is saying Wall is the better player here...

[Kosher Ham]

@RonArtest15 ,  YOU stated he was the best PG in the NBA. It simply is not true. 

[justice98]

12 hours ago, RonArtest15 said:

Also, you can't gauge how guys play in passing lanes, because that is why folks thought Larry Hughes was a good defender when in reality, he wasn't.  Klay, is by far the better defender out of the guards on that Warriors roster. 

 

Iverson used to do that too.  He'd lead the league in steals just by getting in the passing lanes.  Wasnt a particularly stout man defender though.  

[RonArtest15]

3 minutes ago, Kosher Ham said:

@RonArtest15 ,  YOU stated he was the best PG in the NBA. It simply is not true. 

 

So, here's the thing about OPINIONS.  They're subjective. 

 

For the third time....I said Wall is the best PG in the NBA, but I think Curry is the better player. 

[Kosher Ham]

We can play the semantics game if you like. 

I also get what you are trying to convey here. 

I can not put Wall as the best PG if he can not control the floor as well, let the ball go early in possessions, or score at will. 

 

If you simply mean he is a better passer...maybe. That's it though.