The Official Washington Basketball Thread: Wizards, Mystics etc

[RonArtest15]

Just now, justice98 said:

 

Iverson used to do that too.  He'd lead the league in steals just by getting in the passing lanes.  Wasnt a particularly stout man defender though.  

 

Good call on Iverson.  Folks would see inflated steals numbers and automatically think he (and others) were good defenders, when it couldn't be further from the truth. 

 

I love Iverson...one of my all-time favorite players, but I think he's lucky that he wasn't playing in this new-era of advanced stats.  Can you imagine the discussions?  LOL. 

[Kosher Ham]

Heck, Curry is a solid defender also. I'll give Wall the nod as far as being a better defender at times. 

Curry actually moves without the ball, Wall...rarely. 

[RonArtest15]

4 minutes ago, Kosher Ham said:

We can play the semantics game if you like. 

I also get what you are trying to convey here. 

I can not put Wall as the best PG if he can not control the floor as well, let the ball go early in possessions, or score at will. 

 

If you simply mean he is a better passer...maybe. That's it though. 

 

I think there is something to be said about the offense that GS runs and the players Curry has for teammates.  Considering what Wall has had to work with over the past couple of seasons, I think it's completely debatable as to who controls the floor better as a PG. 

 

 

[Kosher Ham]

1 minute ago, RonArtest15 said:

I love Iverson...one of my all-time favorite players, but I think he's lucky that he wasn't playing in this new-era of advanced stats.  Can you imagine the discussions?  LOL. 

 

I don't know where AI disappeared to. I used to see him all the time. Right after he got HOF status he has vanished. 

Straight up if I see him again soon, I will try to get you an autograph. We have talked a few times. He's cool, just doesn't like being bothered by things like that for the most part. 

 

[RonArtest15]

7 minutes ago, Kosher Ham said:

Heck, Curry is a solid defender also. I'll give Wall the nod as far as being a better defender at times. 

Curry actually moves without the ball, Wall...rarely. 

 

I think Curry also benefits from playing in one of the best team-defenses in the NBA.  Having guys like Draymond and Iggy on the floor makes life A LOT easier for everyone else.  Not to mention, Klay/KD are no slouches either.  I think Curry is an average defender at best.  When the Cavs/Warriors meet up, I guarantee Cleveland will look to exploit Curry on that end of the floor much like what they did with Isaiah Thomas when he was healthy. 

[Kosher Ham]

1 minute ago, RonArtest15 said:

 

I think there is something to be said about the offense that GS runs and the players Curry has for teammates.  Considering what Wall has had to work with over the past couple of seasons, I think it's completely debatable as to who controls the floor better as a PG. 

 

 

Ehh... Curry controls the floor better because of one reason. He is a bigger threat to score. 

Thus making his job actually harder because he is defended more aggressively. 

I'll give Wall some credit because most of HIS teams have or give limited amounts to the pot. He is a straight up baller. 

Most of the guys he runs with are soft or MIA when he needs them most. Curry has the luxury with his roster with guys that are looking to make plays. 

Curry has proven himself on the biggest stages. I am certain he knows that Cleveland will try to go down that road again. 

I don't think he will make the same mistakes again. 

I certainly don't want Doc to have bragging rights for a year. I just don't see the Cavs winning more than 2 games. Might even be one. 

[justice98]

9 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Curry's a better playmaker than Lebron. They Warriors have one of hte best offenses of all time because of Curry's presence on the court. I keep saying this, but he can create for his teammates without touching the ball. Teams dread him and have to account for him all the time on the court, and he is always moving which forces defenders to follow him and lose their marker.

 

If Curry is out for any significant period of time, Golden State are not the machine they are now. Not even close. As we saw in the season, they could lose Durant and be fine. (IMO, they didnt need Durant for the Western conference playoffs)

 

the other thing I will say here is if you put Curry on the Wizards, he would get as many assists if not more than Wall has.

 

The Warriors have one of the best offenses with Curry on the court, no dispute there.  But the Cavs dont have a competent team without LeBron.  He shows up and all the sudden the rest of the squad figures out how to beat people. That is a playmaker.

 

"If Curry is out for any significant period of time..."  That's not much of an argument tho.  You could literally say that about every team in the league that loses their best player (or co-best player).  Except in the Warriors case, they've proven they can win without Steph in the short term.

 

Wall gets 10+ assists now, he'd get 15 every game dropping it off to Durant, Klay, and Co.

[RonArtest15]

8 minutes ago, Kosher Ham said:

 

Ehh... Curry controls the floor better because of one reason. He is a bigger threat to score. 

Thus making his job actually harder because he is defended more aggressively. 

I'll give Wall some credit because most of HIS teams have or give limited amounts to the pot. He is a straight up baller. 

Most of the guys he runs with are soft or MIA when he needs them most. Curry has the luxury with his roster with guys that are looking to make plays. 

Curry has proven himself on the biggest stages. I am certain he knows that Cleveland will try to go down that road again. 

I don't think he will make the same mistakes again. 

I certainly don't want Doc to have bragging rights for a year. I just don't see the Cavs winning more than 2 games. Might even be one. 

 

Even with the Warriors going 73-9 last year and the Cavs miraculously pulling off the Finals win, beating the Warriors this year will prove to be 1000x harder.  This is arguably the most loaded team in NBA history and have one of the best offenses/defense in the NBA this year. 

 

IF the Cavs pull this off, and Lebron plays the way we all expect, I'm ready to cement him as the GOAT.  This is going to be the biggest challenge of his career...Cavs winning two games might be generous LOL. 

[Bozo the kKklown]

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

By the time he was a sophomore/junior in H.S. and getting recruited and invited to national camps, he was tall and he was lighting people up at the highest level of competition.  That's what I meant when I said he grew up faster and bigger.  John used to talk about the reason he never learned to shoot before he got to the NBA was because he never had to.  Reminds me of how Iverson could score 50 or 60 points in invitational tournaments in High School and college while only taking a couple of jumpers.

 

Good point about John not having an NBA playing father.  LaVar Ball's crazy opinion aside, you can see how much it benefits the guys who do have that.  They are so mechanically refined.  And even though they didn't play in the NBA, you see how much having parents who were great teachers helped Beal and Porter.  Not having that is why John has no off-ball game.  He's like a self taught genius, but he has never played off the ball in his entire basketball career.

Wall was like 5'5" after his sophomore year.

 

He hit a crazy growth spurt. He may have been faster than everyone else, but he was not bigger.

 

He wasnt on the national radar until his junior year, iric.

53 minutes ago, RonArtest15 said:

 

Look at the numbers from '16.  Not a crazy drop off with only having Klay/Draymond on the floor.  They are STILL an efficient squad due to the sum of all parts and the system they run.  It's not to slight Curry, but he doesn't have to shoulder the same load as Lebron for his team to have success. 

 

Curry is an AVERAGE defender at best.  Again, you can't equate him being aware of passing lanes to him being a competent defender.  It's Larry Hughes all over again.  6/10 is beyond generous.  6/10 is where Oubre is right now. 

 

You can't play the hypothetical game about how many assists Curry would average when his career high is only 8.5.  Not to mention, he has the luxury of playing with 3 top-15 players in the league...and two of those can facilitate the 1/2 court and take pressure off of him as a ball handler.  Even before KD went to GS, Draymond was/is doing the same. 

 

I'll say it again...Curry is a MUCH better player than Wall, but Wall is the better PG.  In today's NBA, shooting reigns supreme, and Curry is most-likely going to go down as the best in the history of the game.  He's flat out amazing.  If I was building at team, I'd pick him 10x out of 10 over Wall JUST because of how good he is at that aspect of the game.  Even with his playmaking not being on Wall's level, his shooting more than makes up for it.  He's beyond elite. 

 

I don't think anyone is saying Wall is the better player here...

This season, the Warriors are a +15 with Curry on the court every 100 possession. It is like +6 with Durant.

 

The Warriors will be efficient because of that system, but Curry makes them a transcendent team. There is no one in the NBA that can beat someone off the dribble and pull up from 33 feet and make it.  If Curry was ever out a signficant period of time, they would not be a machine at all.

 

Once again, I never said Curry is a great defender. He is a 6/10 defender. He aint great, but he is not a liability. Russell Westbrook and Kyrie Irving are liabilities. Curry is consistent. He doesnt embarrass himself and can stay in front of players. He just cant be anything more than a trier due to his athletic limitations, but he is very consistent. It is different from someone like Wall who decides to lock players down when they talk trash to him but other than that relaxes on that end of the court. If Curry can at least put the effort on that side of the ball all the time, and then run around as much as he does on the offensive end, then why can't Wall? Based on defensive metrics, Oubre ranks worse than Curry so I don't know about that. I think people mix up defensive potential versus actual defensive performance. 

 

I would not call Curry an elite defender, but Basketball Breakdown has a great video showing why Curry is nowhere near a liability.

 

 

And its not a hypothetical game with Curry. If you asked Curry to be the team's sole playmaker, he would average around the same of assists as Wall. Curry falls back because that makes the offense better. Thats the point. Why would you ask Curry to pound the ball in the court for 20 seconds when you have Durant, Livingston, and Draymond on that team? Even Iggy. Like I said earlier, would Wall thrive in that system? I dont know, you may need to lessen's Draymond's creative role to permit that.

 

Curry is just a much superior point guard than Wall right now. Curry is verging on the 2nd best point guard of all time levels. 

Edited May 24, 2017 by BenningRoadSkin

[justice98]

Lets revisit this in another 6 weeks when the Finals start when they put Steph on Iman Shumpert or somebody lame like that.

 

[Bozo the kKklown]

16 minutes ago, justice98 said:

Lets revisit this in another 6 weeks when the Finals start when they put Steph on Iman Shumpert or somebody lame like that.

 

thats fine

 

But if he was a liability, Shumpert would kill him.

 

http://stats.nba.com/players/defense-dash-overall/#!?sort=PCT_PLUSMINUS&dir=-1&Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular Season&PlayerPosition=G

 

This is from the regular season, Curry's defense some how magically causes players to shoot nearly 3% lower than their average field goal percentage. Wall's is at around 2%

 

Westbrook and Irving have defenders actually go above their field goal percentages.

 

The other thing to remember is that the Warriors had the best defense in the NBA before Kerr arrived.

 

Ya'll gonna have to put some respeck on Curry's name. He is byfar the best point guard in the NBA. You can say Wall is second, and I wouldnt argue because I agree but there is a big gap between Wall and Curry. The Warriors have had one of the best offenses in NBA history the last 3 years and outside of adding Durant this year, they are not a traditionally stacked team.

 

Curry is making a strong case to be the 2nd best point guard of all time behind Magic.

Edited May 24, 2017 by BenningRoadSkin

[Bozo the kKklown]

48 minutes ago, justice98 said:

But the Cavs dont have a competent team without LeBron.  

thats fine, but I would take what Curry does over Lebron as a playmaker.

 

Lebron is by far the better player, which is what you said here.

[RonArtest15]

ELITE defender?  C'mon now LOL.  I didn't watch the vid yet...and I'll get to it later on, but let's be real....Steph REALLY benefits from OVERALL TEAM defense as opposed to what he's doing by himself.  He's average.  I can pull vids off of youtube that show how he's the furthest thing from "elite" that there is.  I'll maintain that he's average.  Not even 6/10.  Draymond/KD/Iggy/Klay are all +, to elite defensive players.  You can hide your weakest link when the sum of the unit is that strong.  It's akin to the Thibs Bulls teams that had strong defenses but would hide Boozer within the scheme so you wouldn't really exploit how bad he was on the interior. 

[Bozo the kKklown]

25 minutes ago, RonArtest15 said:

ELITE defender?  C'mon now LOL.  I didn't watch the vid yet...and I'll get to it later on, but let's be real....Steph REALLY benefits from OVERALL TEAM defense as opposed to what he's doing by himself.  He's average.  I can pull vids off of youtube that show how he's the furthest thing from "elite" that there is.  I'll maintain that he's average.  Not even 6/10.  Draymond/KD/Iggy/Klay are all +, to elite defensive players.  You can hide your weakest link when the sum of the unit is that strong.  It's akin to the Thibs Bulls teams that had strong defenses but would hide Boozer within the scheme so you wouldn't really exploit how bad he was on the interior. 

I dont agree with calling him elite.

 

But he is at worst an average defender, who is consistent. Watch the video. BBall breakdown watches all game film, unlike us. They notice trends and tendencies more than us who just watch the game and move on with our lives. He fights through screens and uses his body a lot to force the offensive players into bad positions. He is way better than you will ever give him credit, and imo he is a better defender than Wall even though Wall has the potential to be elite.

 

And he holds the guy he is guarding to under their normal shooting percentage. Having Draymond helps things, but the Warriors were the #1 defensive team in the NBA before Draymond was a starter. 

 

Also, to go against something someone said earlier, Kevin Durant is an elite defender. Ever since last year's playoffs, he has stepped it up.

32 minutes ago, RonArtest15 said:

It's akin to the Thibs Bulls teams that had strong defenses but would hide Boozer within the scheme so you wouldn't really exploit how bad he was on the interior. 

its not the same because Curry often guards the primary ball handler.

 

You can hide weak interior defenders. Its hard to hide guys who defend the other team's point guard.

[Going Commando]

Curry is a tough and super smart and consistent defender but there is no question that a big reason he looks good on defense is that system and surrounding talent.  They put him on the weak offensive players so that he doesn't have to guard the strong on ball facilitator and he thrives in the switch everything and recover system they run.  He excels at switching because he's such a focused and cognizant player and it plays to his strengths.  But if you put him in a different system, or if he played with weak defenders, then he would look bad.  And there is another factor: that team's offense is so good that it forces opponents to press and play up tempo.  And Curry doesn't have the burden of facilitating his offense every possession like Wall does.

 

I agree that he was a more consistent defender than John was this season.  John takes nights off and Curry doesn't.  Curry is just a more consistent player period.  But when John is dialed in, he's transcendent--the best defender at the PG position in the game by a country mile.  John can stone LeBron on a post up and block his shot.  There is not another PG in the NBA that can do that.  And even when John mails it in for most of a season, he can lead the league in steals and lead all PGs in blocks.  He's a free safety and if he played with the kind of defensive players that Curry does, he'd be way better.

Edited May 24, 2017 by stevemcqueen1

[justice98]

20 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

You can hide weak interior defenders. Its hard to hide guys who defend the other team's point guard.

 

Except if the other team's point guard is a bigger offensive threat than the SG, Klay will be on him as much as possible.  Like OKC or Cleveland.  They know the matchup doesn't favor them with Steph on them.

[justice98]

As far as Wall taking plays off defensively vs Steph, I would invoke the minutes argument.  Wall averaged 37 minutes a game from Nov thru March, including 39mpg in Feb. Steph on the other hand was coasting on a consistent 33mpg, while never averaging more than 34.  Steph had 21 games of 30 minutes or less during that period, Wall had 7.  And this is coming off a knee surgery in the summer.

 

When literally everything runs through you on the offensive end, sometimes you only have so much to give.  Steph has much less to worry about and thry manage his minutes much better than Brooks did (or could).  GS has multiple guys that can initiate the offense, relieving Steph as necessary.

Edited May 24, 2017 by justice98

[Destino]

Teams rarely put their best guard on the teams opposing best guard because of foul trouble, energy conservation, and because putting size on them gives you some advantage.  Wall was guarding Avery Bradley much more often than IT, for example.  Curry isn't a great individual defender but he's a smart active defender that works well within the scheme.  Wall is a better defender when he's locked in and has enough wind.  Much better.  Problem is that he takes nights off, falls asleep on defense frequently, and isn't as well conditioned.

 

Conditioning isn't just an issue for individual players.  Read Dion Waiters article in the player tribune and you'll notice that his first meeting with Pat Riley he's informed that the team will get him in world class shape.  He then talks about what the conditioning work is like on the Heat.  Keeping that in mind consider what Nene looked like here versus what he looked like in his first year in Houston.  Not exactly a smoking gun, but it's evidence that the Wizards conditioning demands aren't the highest.  Probably because Ernie Grunfeld is terrible.     

 

[BRAVEONAWARPATH]

http://www.csnmidatlantic.com/washington-wizards/best-unrestricted-free-agent-point-guards-help-wizards-back-john-wall?utm_content=buffer4dff5&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Quote

 

BEST UNRESTRICTED FREE-AGENT POINT GUARDS TO HELP WIZARDS BACK UP JOHN WALL

 

The Wizards don't have a lot of cap room so whoever they bring in has to be relatively affordable and willing to accept a backup role. If they require starters' minutes or money, they're not an option with Wall and Beal firmly in place.

 

5. Ty Lawson (Kings): The 5-11 point guard had a bit of a bounce back season. He averaged 9.9 points and 4.9 assists. Lawson doesn't stretch the floor as well as others on this list, shooting a career-low 28.8% from three-point range in 69 appearances. His issues with alcohol has made him a risky proposition for most teams but he was formerly a quality starter who probably can be had for a reasonable price. He earned the vet minimum $1.3 million.

 

4. Deron Williams (Mavs/Cavs): A 6-3 point guard, he accepted a reduced role to compete for a championship with 11.0 points, 5.6 assists and 36.3% three-point shooting. His final year of his deal netted him $14.8 million but that'll plummet signficantly if he hopes to continue playing for contenders. On the downside, he'll be 33 and can be injury-prone.

 

3. Darren Collison (Kings): Also a 6-foot point guard, Collison averaged 13.2 points, 4.6 assists and a career-high 41.7% from three-point range. He also started 64 games in earning $5.2 million. He has been a backup most of his career. 

 

2. Shaun Livingston (Warriors): The biggest point guard on this list, the Wizard had the 6-7 Livingston as he tried to rebuild his career after a catastrophic knee injury but he was cut by Randy Wittnan during the 2012-13 season. He's averaging just 5.1 points off the bench for Golden State and isn't a three-point shooter but he can get his own shot. He shot 54.7% from the field overall in earning $5.7 million. 

 

1. Patty Mills (Spurs): A 6-foot point guard, he averaged 9.5 points, 3.5 assists and shot 41.3% from three-point range in his sixth season in San Antonio. Mills earned $3.2 million in 22 minutes per game off the bench. He can handle the ball, run the offense, stretch the floor and has developed into a good perimeter defender. Mills has never started more than eight games in his eight-year career.

 

 

[Destino]

None of those points guards would work with a PG does everything offense but Collison has the best chance.  No chance we can afford him. 

[Bozo the kKklown]

Lawson could because he will be very cheap.

[RonArtest15]

1 hour ago, justice98 said:

 

Except if the other team's point guard is a bigger offensive threat than the SG, Klay will be on him as much as possible.  Like OKC or Cleveland.  They know the matchup doesn't favor them with Steph on them.

 

Bingo...

 

He benefits from great overall team defense.  He's average.  Nothing more, nothing less on that end of the floor. 

 

 

 

 

*edit*

 

Now thinking about it, I remember specifically in their loss vs. the Wizards late in the season, Steph was in a iso situation late in the game against Wall.  HE called immediately over the Draymond for the switch, which Draymond did. 

 

If it's a tougher guard assignment, Klay is getting that matchup. 

Edited May 24, 2017 by RonArtest15

[Bozo the kKklown]

Holy crap, that Youtube Channel user is named "Curry Cant."

 

HAHAHA

 

Did Curry only have 6 "bad" defensive games this year? Thats all the videos on that Youtube channel.

 

We gotta do better than stuff like this.

[Going Commando]

A lot of those plays were broken switches and tough makes where Curry gave an effort you can be fine with as a coach.  He was icing pick and rolls and slowing the roll man like he's supposed to, the offensive player just pulled up and made a good shot.

 

He's not a great defensive presence but Curry plays smart and he does his job and their system is excellent. Yes he is put in an ideal position to succeed and no he's not nearly as talented a defender as Wall.  But he works harder than Wall and it pays off in more consistent results.

[RonArtest15]

17 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Holy crap, that Youtube Channel user is named "Curry Cant."

 

HAHAHA

 

Did Curry only have 6 "bad" defensive games this year? Thats all the videos on that Youtube channel.

 

We gotta do better than stuff like this.

 

Talking about we gotta do better and you posted a vid where someone called him ELITE LOL. 

 

Steph gives 100% on the defensive end of the floor.  He tries VERY hard.  However, it doesn't account for anything more than him being average.  He strictly benefits from Klay taking the tougher assignments and also KD/Draymond/Iggy being there to clean up his messes or switch. 

 

I'm not going to say much about Wall on the defensive end, because he takes possessions off ALL THE TIME.  However, as others have pointed out, when he's engaged and locked in, there aren't many better PGs defensively at the 1 than him.  He can be elite at that end of the floor, but he doesn't give it his all.  Could be because he's tired from the heavy lifting on offense, but who knows/