The Official Washington Basketball Thread: Wizards, Mystics etc

[Destino]

So, we need to coddle him? Sorry, but things don't work that way unless you are a superstar in the league. If you're a rookie or a young player, you have to show you belong. Other players have accepted his challenges and also risen to the occasion. Vesely has had ample opportunities to prove himself, but somehow because he's a mental-midget, it's Wittman's fault? I'm not following. It was an awful pick that should have NEVER been made. The dude sucks.

I'm only judging Wittman for what he's done with the Wizards, and he has done a good job. I highly doubt you'll find anyone other than you who is in the Vesely camp on this one.

In dealing with Vesely, Wittman gets the benefit of the doubt 10x out of 10.

Regarding Faried/Leonard, I wasn't talking about media pundits....I should have clarified. NUMEROUS people on RealGM were singing Faried's praises before the draft and said they wouldn't mind if he was our guy.

Um what? If you draft RAW players you expect them to take time to develop. You put them in positions to succeed, structure their development, and hope that it pays off after at least three years. Especially if they are bigs. I agree the pick shouldn't have been made, the kid didnt have enough basketball skills to justify going that high. But he was picked and instead of developing him Wittman put him whoever they needed bodies, just like he did with Singleton, and then punished them for failing to learn a new position overnight.

Wittman can't develop young players, he doesn't know how. Ernie is the king of drafting potential over skill and then being a cheap fool when it comes to developing them. Players not ready to play NBA ball have little chance to succeed here.

[RonArtest15]

Um what? If you draft RAW players you expect them to take time to develop. You put them in positions to succeed, structure their development, and hope that it pays off after at least three years. Especially if they are bigs. I agree the pick shouldn't have been made, the kid didnt have enough basketball skills to justify going that high. But he was picked and instead of developing him Wittman put him whoever they needed bodies, just like he did with Singleton, and then punished them for failing to learn a new position overnight.

Wittman can't develop young players, he doesn't know how. Ernie is the king of drafting potential over skill and then being a cheap fool when it comes to developing them. Players not ready to play NBA ball have little chance to succeed here.

How raw did EG think he was? He was playing professionally in Europe and was the oldest pick in the top-10. Dude has shown little-to-no semblance of being a competent basketball player in the NBA. It's not Ves' fault that he was drafted so high, but he'll go down as one of the biggest lottery busts in NBA history if there isn't a drastic change.

Wittman deals with the hand he is given. If players can't crack the rotation or lineup, that's not entirely on him. How many people HONESTLY think that Ves is getting a raw deal here? Probably next to no one. Ves' rough transition to the NBA falls on our international scouting. Even when the pick was made, there were a lot of questions.

In regards to Singleton, he's looked lost in every position he's played as a pro.

Edited April 26, 2013 by RonArtest15

[Skin'emAlive]

Wittman is not a good coach. You dont just magically become a good coach at some point years after you have established yourself as the losingest coach in history. But it is not his fault we drafted and put expectations on a player who is nothing more than a body on the court. V was a scouting failure at extreme levels. He's a man with no position. Cant shoot, but cant defend his man without fouling. Is deathly afraid of shooting foulshots, where he is abysmal, and who's entire offensive game is reliant on a lob pass from John Wall. If the dude wants to prove that he isnt one of the worst busts of all time, he needs to spend all summer, every waking minute, locked inside of a gym. And even then, i just dont see anything that could even convince me he can even be a role player in the future.

I feel bad for Singleton. He looked good at times. Then Wittman benched him, and his mojo was gone. Maybe you could blame this one on Randy. I dont think hes all that bad. But would succeed somewhere else imo. Just not here.

[Destino]

How raw did EG think he was? He was playing professionally in Europe and was the oldest pick in the top-10. Dude has shown little-to-no semblance of being a competent basketball player in the NBA. It's not Ves' fault that he was drafted so high, but he'll go down as one of the biggest lottery busts in NBA history if there isn't a drastic change.

Wittman deals with the hand he is given. If players can't crack the rotation or lineup, that's not entirely on him. How many people HONESTLY think that Ves is getting a raw deal here? Probably next to no one. Ves' rough transition to the NBA falls on our international scouting. Even when the pick was made, there were a lot of questions.

In regards to Singleton, he's looked lost in every position he's played as a pro.

I don't think Ves is getting a raw deal, I haven't even thought about it from that angle. This team needs to be better at developing players. That's my point of view. Blatche is providing good minutes and efficiency with the Nets while we pay him. McGee is overpaid but efficient as hell off the bench in Denver. Meanwhile Vesely and Seraphin regressed. Booker is an after thought. Singleton can't do anything well.

You can't look at Vesely and pretend he's a unique situation. This team is paying 27 million for decent C and PF play because they've failed so completely at developing and drafting any bigs.

[Going Commando]

So, we need to coddle him? Sorry, but things don't work that way unless you are a superstar in the league. If you're a rookie or a young player, you have to show you belong. Other players have accepted his challenges and also risen to the occasion. Vesely has had ample opportunities to prove himself, but somehow because he's a mental-midget, it's Wittman's fault? I'm not following. It was an awful pick that should have NEVER been made. The dude sucks.

I'm only judging Wittman for what he's done with the Wizards, and he has done a good job. I highly doubt you'll find anyone other than you who is in the Vesely camp on this one.

In dealing with Vesely, Wittman gets the benefit of the doubt 10x out of 10.

Regarding Faried/Leonard, I wasn't talking about media pundits....I should have clarified. NUMEROUS people on RealGM were singing Faried's praises before the draft and said they wouldn't mind if he was our guy.

The only players that have "risen to the occasion" for Wittman are vets who already know how to play the game and can't miss future All Star stud young guards who also already know how to play. So there you have it. We'll just build entirely with those two types. We just need a string of consecutive top 3 picks and/or an 80 million dollar salary cap.

He's clearly an awful teacher who is poison for young bigs. I doubt we'll ever develop a young big under his watch unless the guy has a ridiculously polished skill set and understanding of the game (he developed himself). Wittman is the man who made Kevin Love stop shooting threes. He's just not smart. If you can't get it right with Kevin Love then you don't need to be developing players.

Vesely came here and got worse. So did Singleton. Seraphin hasn't gotten worse too. It's unfortunate that Vesely has busted like this because a good organization could have turned him into a useful player. Good organizations take raw talent and teach it how to play. Instead, we make it harder for a player like Vesely to succeed rather than helping them. Our failures with practically all of the young bigs we've drafted, going all of the way back to Blatche, remains a line of demarcation between us and good organizations.

I'm sure there were people on RealGM that wanted to pick Faried at 6. Most of the people on RealGM throw **** at the wall to see what sticks in their running competition to prove they're smarter than each other. It's like the guy who picks a pair of 15 seeds in the finals of his bracket because he wants to win his group. But nowhere else in the draftnik community or in the NBA had Faried as a top six pick. Numerous people on RealGM would have traded John Wall for Kyle Lowery before the deadline this season and would probably have picked Doug McDermott with our top ten pick if he declared.

[RonArtest15]

Wittman is not a good coach. You dont just magically become a good coach at some point years after you have established yourself as the losingest coach in history. But it is not his fault we drafted and put expectations on a player who is nothing more than a body on the court. V was a scouting failure at extreme levels. He's a man with no position. Cant shoot' date=' but cant defend his man without fouling. Is deathly afraid of shooting foulshots, where he is abysmal, and who's entire offensive game is reliant on a lob pass from John Wall. If the dude wants to prove that he isnt one of the worst busts of all time, he needs to spend all summer, every waking minute, locked inside of a gym. And even then, i just dont see anything that could even convince me he can even be a role player in the future.

I feel bad for Singleton. He looked good at times. Then Wittman benched him, and his mojo was gone. Maybe you could blame this one on Randy. I dont think hes all that bad. But would succeed somewhere else imo. Just not here.[/quote']

I agree with most of what you said.

I don't think Ves is getting a raw deal, I haven't even thought about it from that angle. This team needs to be better at developing players. That's my point of view. Blatche is providing good minutes and efficiency with the Nets while we pay him. McGee is overpaid but efficient as hell off the bench in Denver. Meanwhile Vesely and Seraphin regressed. Booker is an after thought. Singleton can't do anything well.

You can't look at Vesely and pretend he's a unique situation. This team is paying 27 million for decent C and PF play because they've failed so completely at developing and drafting any bigs.

I don't think Vesely is in a unique situation. If you're the #6 overall pick, you have to produce.

As far as Blatche, he's playing for another contract. I knew this would happen as soon as he left DC. Maybe there is something there as far as this team not being able to develop bigs, but in the cases of Vesely and Blatche, I think they are clearly outliers to that notion.

The only players that have "risen to the occasion" for Wittman are vets who already know how to play the game and can't miss future All Star stud young guards who also already know how to play. So there you have it. We'll just build entirely with those two types. We just need a string of consecutive top 3 picks and/or an 80 million dollar salary cap.

He's clearly an awful teacher who is poison for young bigs. I doubt we'll ever develop a young big under his watch unless the guy has a ridiculously polished skill set and understanding of the game (he developed himself). Wittman is the man who made Kevin Love stop shooting threes. He's just not smart. If you can't get it right with Kevin Love then you don't need to be developing players.

Vesely came here and got worse. So did Singleton. Seraphin hasn't gotten worse too. It's unfortunate that Vesely has busted like this because a good organization could have turned him into a useful player. Good organizations take raw talent and teach it how to play. Instead, we make it harder for a player like Vesely to succeed rather than helping them. Our failures with practically all of the young bigs we've drafted, going all of the way back to Blatche, remains a line of demarcation between us and good organizations.

I'm sure there were people on RealGM that wanted to pick Faried at 6. Most of the people on RealGM throw **** at the wall to see what sticks in their running competition to prove they're smarter than each other. It's like the guy who picks a pair of 15 seeds in the finals of his bracket because he wants to win his group. But nowhere else in the draftnik community or in the NBA had Faried as a top six pick. Numerous people on RealGM would have traded John Wall for Kyle Lowery before the deadline this season and would probably have picked Doug McDermott with our top ten pick if he declared.

No one is saying Wittman is a great coach by any means. We know he had his missteps with Kevin Love, but that was 4-5 years ago. Move on.

Says a lot that he has the respect and admiration of guys like Webster, Wall, and Nene. The latter two COMPLETELY endorsed bringing him back for this past season. The player/coach perspective is 100% different than the fan perspective.

I don't think you'll find too many people sympathetic of the plights of Singleton/Vesely due to Wittman's coaching.

[Going Commando]

Um what? If you draft RAW players you expect them to take time to develop. You put them in positions to succeed, structure their development, and hope that it pays off after at least three years. Especially if they are bigs. I agree the pick shouldn't have been made, the kid didnt have enough basketball skills to justify going that high. But he was picked and instead of developing him Wittman put him whoever they needed bodies, just like he did with Singleton, and then punished them for failing to learn a new position overnight.

Wittman can't develop young players, he doesn't know how. Ernie is the king of drafting potential over skill and then being a cheap fool when it comes to developing them. Players not ready to play NBA ball have little chance to succeed here.

I agree with every part of this. I will never understand Ernie's approach to player development. I think he basically drafts the consensus players at all of his picks--a sound strategy in theory. But then he does everything in his power to hinder their development. Why not pay for a big man coach for JaVale? JaVale then goes to Denver and works out with Hakeem in the summer and he does get better. Why not structure the development of Singleton and Ves at all? It's like the moment after he drafts them he says, "well my job here is done, I'm going on break." What a bad GM.

I've said my peace on Wittman. I totally agree with you about him. And I'm afraid he's going to hinder our ability to take the next step as a team and we're always going to be playing with a hand tied behind our back with him as HC. Especially when we are truly competing with minds like Spoelstra, Rivers, and Thibs.

And yeah, Vesely is a warning for us not to draft wings that can't handle the ball or shoot from range. Though he was a better shooter in Serbia, we've killed his confidence here and he's become a horrible shooter from range (although he's still a very good inside shooter). Because he had no handles nor consistent jumper, we moved him to a PF/C, totally different than the SF we presumably drafted him to be. We had no plan. Now he's trying to learn a new position on the fly, for which he does not have the body, while playing next to no minutes. What a total waste. Did the exact same thing with Singleton too. And it kills me to see Seraphin getting worse. Seraphin should be good. If he were in Chicago, or San Antonio, or Boston, he'd be coming up on a big time pay day once his rookie deal ends.

---------- Post added April-26th-2013 at 09:47 AM ----------

No one is saying Wittman is a great coach by any means. We know he had his missteps with Kevin Love, but that was 4-5 years ago. Move on.

Says a lot that he has the respect and admiration of guys like Webster, Wall, and Nene. The latter two COMPLETELY endorsed bringing him back for this past season. The player/coach perspective is 100% different than the fan perspective.

I don't think you'll find too many people sympathetic of the plights of Singleton/Vesely due to Wittman's coaching.

Wittman gets a ridiculous amount of support from this fan base given how awful his track record is. And his failures in Minnesota are absolutely relevant to us, he isn't doing any better here.

It's great that Wall and the vets have bought into what Wittman is selling. That's his only saving grace IMO. But look at who you're talking about. Guys like Nene and Webster and Oak and Wall are great guys. They are high IQ, high character players that could probably gel perfectly with any coach. They don't need to be taught how to play and how to be a pro. You can plug them in and play them anywhere on day one. When is Wittman going to be successful with a young guy who needs time and work to find his way? When is he going to successfully teach and develop a raw talent, especially a big who still has a lot to learn? I don't think he can do it.

I know that nobody in the fan base is going to agree with me that Wittman stunted the development of players like Vesely and Singleton. They're marginal guys and this fanbase ALWAYS blames the players then eventually runs them out of town on a rail. But the organization is the one constant in all of the failures. The truth is we're a terrible, third rate organization, a place where young players come to have their careers ruined. And as fans, we only see what happens on the court and nothing behind the scenes. It's a lot easier to ignore the deep seated organizational problems we've got and our awful HC and focus on the players because they come and go.

Edited April 26, 2013 by stevemcqueen1

[Destino]

To add to Steve's point, developing players that aren't blue chips is essential. Look at the best teams in the league and you'll see role players that they've managed to draft and find ways to use. We can't over pay just to get average to good production from every position.

This is a big reason why the wizards have no depth. They can't afford it and they can't develop it.

Edited April 26, 2013 by Destino

[RonArtest15]

I agree with every part of this. I will never understand Ernie's approach to player development. I think he basically drafts the consensus players at all of his picks--a sound strategy in theory. But then he does everything in his power to hinder their development. Why not pay for a big man coach for JaVale? JaVale then goes to Denver and works out with Hakeem in the summer and he does get better. Why not structure the development of Singleton and Ves at all? It's like the moment after he drafts them he says, "well my job here is done, I'm going on break." What a bad GM.

I've said my peace on Wittman. I totally agree with you about him. And I'm afraid he's going to hinder our ability to take the next step as a team and we're always going to be playing with a hand tied behind our back with him as HC. Especially when we are truly competing with minds like Spoelstra, Rivers, and Thibs.

And yeah, Vesely is a warning for us not to draft wings that can't handle the ball or shoot from range. Though he was a better shooter in Serbia, we've killed his confidence here and he's become a horrible shooter from range (although he's still a very good inside shooter). Because he had no handles nor consistent jumper, we moved him to a PF/C, totally different than the SF we presumably drafted him to be. We had no plan. Now he's trying to learn a new position on the fly, for which he does not have the body, while playing next to no minutes. What a total waste. Did the exact same thing with Singleton too. And it kills me to see Seraphin getting worse. Seraphin should be good. If he were in Chicago, or San Antonio, or Boston, he'd be coming up on a big time pay day once his rookie deal ends.

---------- Post added April-26th-2013 at 09:47 AM ----------

Wittman gets a ridiculous amount of support from this fan base given how awful his track record is. And his failures in Minnesota are absolutely relevant to us, he isn't doing any better here.

It's great that Wall and the vets have bought into what Wittman is selling. That's his only saving grace IMO. But look at who you're talking about. Guys like Nene and Webster and Oak and Wall are great guys. They are high IQ, high character players that could probably gel perfectly with any coach. They don't need to be taught how to play and how to be a pro. You can plug them in and play them anywhere on day one. When is Wittman going to be successful with a young guy who needs time and work to find his way? When is he going to successfully teach and develop a raw talent, especially a big who still has a lot to learn? I don't think he can do it.

I know that nobody in the fan base is going to agree with me that Wittman stunted the development of players like Vesely and Singleton. They're marginal guys and this fanbase ALWAYS blames the players then eventually runs them out of town on a rail. But the organization is the one constant in all of the failures. The truth is we're a terrible, third rate organization, a place where young players come to have their careers ruined. And as fans, we only see what happens on the court and nothing behind the scenes. It's a lot easier to ignore the deep seated organizational problems we've got and our awful HC and focus on the players because they come and go.

Wittman, through all his ups and downs HAS grown with the team. IMO, he's earned the right to coach them through next year.

You're totally marginalizing the fact that he has player support. That means something.

As far as player development, look at what he's done with Beal. Beal had an AWFUL start, but he stuck with him. If you're going to get on him for how he's dealt with Vesely/Singleton, then you need to give him credit for what he has done right. Beal is one example....the biggest factor is the elevated play of the team (overall) and defensively since Jan 1.

He's not perfect, but Wittman is the right fit for the team at this moment.

It's not just the fanbase that won't agree with you on Ves and Singleton, but there are media members and GMs who have made the same comments. Singleton, whatever. Vesely...#6 pick. You can see why expectations were high for him.

You and me will NEVER agree on this. Sorry.

---------- Post added April-26th-2013 at 10:22 AM ----------

To add to Steve's point, developing players that aren't blue chips is essential. Look at the best teams in the league and you'll see role players that they've managed to draft and find ways to use. We can't over pay just to get average to good production from every position.

This is a big reason why the wizards have no depth. They can't afford it and they can't develop it.

I get that. But there are some players who are lost causes. Vesely is a prime example of that. Singleton, I think there's hope. As this team gets better, I think that he can eventually become a good asset off the bench. He'll be going into year 3, so let's see how much improvement he makes this offseason.

The team has no depth because of horrible vision by our GM. His draft record (outside of Wall/Beal) here in DC speaks for itself. I won't even give him credit for Wall/Beal, because those were no-brainer picks.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

New John Wall Adidas commercial that just dropped. I don't see where it's been posted, but if I'm missing it, my apologies. Anyway, I dig it. But I'm old so what do I know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZNhgDF7kl8&

Edit: Are there issues with embedding vids again?

Edited April 26, 2013 by G.A.C.O.L.B.

[RonArtest15]

Bill Simmons on the "Shooting Drill" segment on NBA Countdown predicted that this summer, the Wizards will re-unite two Kentucky guys....John Wall & Demarcus Cousins.

PLEASE let this happen!

Edited April 28, 2013 by RonArtest15

[RonArtest15]

Jason Collins just announced that he is gay.

Link

[Stugein]

Jason Collins just announced that he is gay.

Link

Good for him. He's a FA, though now, right? I hope he gets re-signed so that the announcement has more impact.

[RonArtest15]

Good for him. He's a FA, though now, right? I hope he gets re-signed so that the announcement has more impact.

Personally, I think he's done in the league. Good on him for coming out, but I'm still waiting for the day when an athlete in the beginning/middle of their pro career makes the same announcement.

[Stugein]

Personally, I think he's done in the league. Good on him for coming out, but I'm still waiting for the day when an athlete in the beginning/middle of their pro career makes the same announcement.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, we already have former players in the major sports that have come out. That's not new.

Not to be completely cynical, but the timing almost makes me wonder if he's coming out because he knows he doesn't have a great chance of getting signed again. Like, "I played all these years and after I come out nobody will sign me!" kind of attention grab guilt thing. It's probably not the case, but it was a thought that came into my head.

[StillUnknown]

Yeah, exactly. I mean, we already have former players in the major sports that have come out. That's not new.

Not to be completely cynical, but the timing almost makes me wonder if he's coming out because he knows he doesn't have a great chance of getting signed again. Like, "I played all these years and after I come out nobody will sign me!" kind of attention grab guilt thing. It's probably not the case, but it was a thought that came into my head.

I'm really hoping it doesn't play out like that, it would ruin an otherwise great story.

Also hoping Ted doesn't feel the need to bring him back based on this story, not sure Ted is the type to pass up a good PR story.

[TradeTheBeal!]

That's how you come out with class. Good luck in the future, Jason.

[ixcuincle]

@McMurphyESPN 12:27 PM

RT @BobLeyESPN: Unintended but blessed consequence of Jason Collins’ courageous statement… Muting the Tebowmania

[JCav06]

Props to Jason. I hope his career continues.

I wonder how many people pictured a Wizard on the cover of SI in late April at the beginning of the season.

[Going Commando]

I think Boston was looking to sign him back and he was interested in going back.

It's a great story and a very important day for gay athletes. I think he finds another team next year. He can still be a six hard fouls type and he's a seven footer with a jumper so someone will probably want him. I don't think being openly gay is going to limit his opportunities for NBA execs all that much because the bottom line for them is about winning and making money. If he's good enough, he should still find a job.

But as I said in the NBA thread, Collins is a marginal player. He's courageous and he'll definitely get some hate for coming out in the open. But he's not going to bring out the homophobes and hateful types to heckle him and shout slurs at him like a star would. He's an end of the roster player. That said, he's still going to have a target on his back.

I hope the Wizards show some class and reach out to him and offer him support through the tough times that are sure to come. And I hope some of the other gay players who are thinking about coming out eventually do so that Collins doesn't have to be the only one. If it's normalized, then it'll be a lot better for every gay athlete in the end.

---------- Post added April-29th-2013 at 01:32 PM ----------

I liked reading all of the public support for Collins. Seeing people like Bill Clinton and Spike Lee speak out on behalf of him is pretty moving. I also liked the statement Ernie made about it:

“We are extremely proud of Jason and support his decision to live his life proudly and openly. He has been a leader on and off the court and an outstanding teammate throughout his NBA career. Those qualities will continue to serve him both as a player and as a positive role model for others of all sexual orientation.”

Hopefully this can be a proud moment for the NBA and the Wizards too.

[StillUnknown]

Alex Len out 4-6 months after surgery to stabilize a stress fracture in his ankle.

[Destino]

Alex Len out 4-6 months after surgery to stabilize a stress fracture in his ankle.

So that leaves Zeller as the only healthy lottery center. I still think he goes after both Len and Noel.

[Weganator]

So that leaves Zeller as the only healthy lottery center. I still think he goes after both Len and Noel.

Exactly.. if for some reason a GM has his injury affect his decision in drafting him, he is a fool. Len isn't going to be a major contributor next season anyway, so the injury is a non factor.

[Going Commando]

Exactly.. if for some reason a GM has his injury affect his decision in drafting him, he is a fool. Len isn't going to be a major contributor next season anyway, so the injury is a non factor.

It's a stress injury, doesn't seem like a good sign for a 19 year old. Ankle injuries on a big are worse than an ACL tear IMO. I bet it was because he gained too much weight too fast.

---------- Post added May-4th-2013 at 11:48 PM ----------

So that leaves Zeller as the only healthy lottery center. I still think he goes after both Len and Noel.

I would definitely take Zeller well before I'd take Len. 100% certain of that. I agree there is a high chance he goes before Zeller, NBA teams will outsmart themselves with those two. They might fall in love with his upside, miss the forest through the trees. The forest being that Zeller is and has been a far better basketball player than Len. I think he will continue being a far better basketball player in the NBA.

[StillUnknown]

David AldridgeVerified account

‏@daldridgetnt

Sources: UNLV forward Anthony Bennett out 4 months. Surgery on left rotator cuff tomorrow. Story up soon on http://NBA.com